fluid leak and I'm an idiot, please help

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:16 pm

This question will probably make it obvious that I'm mechanically disinclined. I tried to figure it out using the owner's manual, but that didn't help.

I seem to have some kind of leak under my BlackJack's front tire:

A very light brown fluid coats the silver part and the underside of the gold part; you can see that it is dripping on the ground. The pool (really more just a stain) is from sitting in place for a couple of days, so it is a slow leak. The brakes work fine, but I'm not sure where/how to check brake fluid levels, and the fluid seems like it might also be motor oil. When I touch it, it does have the sort of silky lubricated feeling.

I should probably take this to someone who knows what they're doing, but if I could easily diagnose or repair this myself (or if it's benign) that would be great.

I've only had this since April (I guess since it's a BlackJack I couldn't have had it long) and there is less than 400 miles on it, partly due to a crash that took me off the bike for a while. Could this be under warranty?

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:20 pm

That happened to me over the first winter I had my scooter – it ended up as a warranty repair – brake fluid was leaking out the seals of the front brake caliper
Be sure to check your Brake Fluid Reservoir Level [/b]

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:25 pm

Might be covered under warranty unless it is established that it was caused by a crash. Whichever, it is important to get it fixed. Hate to see a crash caused by brake failure.
I would bet that it will be covered by the warranty.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:30 pm

rajron wrote:That happened to me over the first winter I had my scooter – it ended up as a warranty repair – brake fluid was leaking out the seals of the front brake caliper
Be sure to check your Brake Fluid Reservoir Level

And here's the really embarrassing part: where do I do that? There's some picture in the owner's manual, but it's so zoomed in I can't figure out where it is. It doesn't seem obvious and out in the open like the oil.

Here's another related question: any chance this is simple enough that I could take it somewhere other than the dealer? They are 45 minutes away on fast roads, but a garage that deals in cycles is 10 minutes away in the city. On the other hand, I realize that most repairs, I'd want to go to people who know Buddys. (Especially anything that might be a warranty repair!)

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:41 pm

The reservoir is located under the plastic parts – on the right hand brake lever, front brake; the plastic is a bear to remove, just be patient disassembling: http://www.modernbuddy.com/pdf/BUDDY_125_PARTS_FIG.pdf
Be sure to use the appropriate fluids
It should be taken to the dealer – it’s a warranty repair – most likely parts related
I don’t think it would be safe to ride without the fluid topped off – but it surly is possible; just gotta pump – that said it’s just not safe.
The dealer had to replace my brake caliper – the scoot was down for about a week awaiting the new part.
edit: Just to complicate the matter, the line should be “bleed” also – can get away without, just not safe – take your time getting to the dealer

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:31 pm

If your under warranty don't mess with it.
If you're not sure what you are doing...don't mess with it.

These are your brakes we're talking about...a pretty important component.

Take it to the dealer and let them fix it properly

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:43 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:If your under warranty don't mess with it.
If you're not sure what you are doing...don't mess with it.

These are your brakes we're talking about...a pretty important component.

Take it to the dealer and let them fix it properly

You've probably gotten the message by now. TAKE IT TO THE DEALER. Most important thing about going fast is being able to stop. In other words,

TAKE IT TO THE DEALER. IT'S IMPORTANT AND NO ONE WANTS TO READ ABOUT YOU GETTING HURT. Please believe me when I say that is meant in a nice way.

nateandcourt · Post by **nateandcourt** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:51 pm

DennisD wrote:
BuddyRaton wrote:If your under warranty don't mess with it.
If you're not sure what you are doing...don't mess with it.

These are your brakes we're talking about...a pretty important component.

Take it to the dealer and let them fix it properly
You've probably gotten the message by now. TAKE IT TO THE DEALER. Most important thing about going fast is being able to stop. In other words,

TAKE IT TO THE DEALER. IT'S IMPORTANT AND NO ONE WANTS TO READ ABOUT YOU GETTING HURT. Please believe me when I say that is meant in a nice way.

Could you use the roadside assistance to get it towed to the dealer in a situation like this?

BuddyLove · Post by **BuddyLove** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:54 pm

I was just about to suggest call roadside and have them bring it to your dealer for you. This is for sure a reason to use them!!

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:21 pm

I'm definitely talked into going to the dealer... and I take that in the nicest way, thanks for the concern!

It's riding fine right now and I feel like I could take it in myself, but the idea of using the roadside assistance is a really good one so I'll probably look into that. There's a difference between the slow city road I take to work, and the fast suburban/rural road to the dealership. Thanks for that suggestion.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:58 pm

beeporama wrote:I'm definitely talked into going to the dealer... and I take that in the nicest way, thanks for the concern!

It's riding fine right now and I feel like I could take it in myself, but the idea of using the roadside assistance is a really good one so I'll probably look into that.

No one is concerned about it riding fine, just stopping fine. Just to make things easier, here's the 800 number.

Now where did that come from?????????????????

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:00 pm

shine a flashlight up the skirt of your right hand break lever, you'll see a little window in there. The fluid was hard for me to see but the airbubble at the top showed me it was full.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:33 pm

DennisD wrote:No one is concerned about it riding fine, just stopping fine. Just to make things easier, here's the 800 number.

Heh, nicely said. I should have specified though, the brakes are working fine. They got me to work in stop-and-go traffic when I stupidly used the leaky scooter to commute in this morning. And I just checked, after sitting in one spot for a few hours, there's no stain under the front tire. So hopefully I'm only losing a few drops.

Nonetheless, I had the roadside assistance number (and my personal ID number that they ask for) so I'll be getting it towed to the dealer after work. I am convinced that I should not keep riding it. Despite this week probably being the last nice days I'll have this year...

jijifer wrote:shine a flashlight up the skirt of your right hand break lever, you'll see a little window in there. The fluid was hard for me to see but the airbubble at the top showed me it was full.

Thanks, that's really useful to know. Maybe I should keep a little flashlight in the pet carrier... probably not a bad idea anyway for when I get my license and can start riding after dark.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:17 pm

I will also say get it checked out... But...

Me and one other guy 10gallonhat had a very similar sounding issue.
topic2970.html

I took it in, but they could find nothing, and 6 months and a good summer of riding later, no problems with my brakes.

Before I drove it in to the dealer, I took it around my parking lot several times, with very hard stops all to the front brake. Never felt a problem so I decided to take it the 1.5 miles to the dealer.

If they come up with anything, I would love to hear it!

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:05 am

One question, do you keep it undercover outside?

If so, here's something that happens to me. During this time of year, I'm greeted by a nice layer of dew on the scoot and cover in the mornings. This dew goes to the lowest point on the cover, which for me is the front wheel. It produces a very similar spot.

If you want to track down a leak, use your fingers, rags etc. Check the forks (are the NCY sealed? Do they have a drain bolt for the fork oil... do they have oil? No clue here, I've not looked at them closely in person - then again, I'd be scared if they didn't have oil). Look at the banjo bolt on the caliper. Those usually have a crush washer that's a one time use item. If the brake line gets knocked out of whack, it could upset the crush washer seal which would cause a leak. If the paint is flaking off near the leak, it's brake fluid.

Another way to track down a leak (I just found this one out) is to clean off the area and spray it with Tinactin (or similar propelled dry, white powder). The leak will show up real fast by running a track through the powder. DO NOT USE THIS TRICK NEAR THE BRAKES. It'll interfere with the friction surfaces, more of an FYI for future reference.

Of course, if it's anything but the first point, get it checked out under warranty.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:07 pm

Lostmycage wrote:One question, do you keep it undercover outside?

Nope. I just ordered a cover for the winter but it's been uncovered. Also, the stains where the scooter sat for a couple of days are still in the cement, so I don't think it's dew.

Lostmycage wrote:If you want to track down a leak, use your fingers, rags etc. Check the forks (are the NCY sealed? Do they have a drain bolt for the fork oil... do they have oil? No clue here, I've not looked at them closely in person - then again, I'd be scared if they didn't have oil). Look at the banjo bolt on the caliper. Those usually have a crush washer that's a one time use item. If the brake line gets knocked out of whack, it could upset the crush washer seal which would cause a leak. If the paint is flaking off near the leak, it's brake fluid.

Another way to track down a leak (I just found this one out) is to clean off the area and spray it with Tinactin (or similar propelled dry, white powder). The leak will show up real fast by running a track through the powder. DO NOT USE THIS TRICK NEAR THE BRAKES. It'll interfere with the friction surfaces, more of an FYI for future reference.

Of course, if it's anything but the first point, get it checked out under warranty.

I had it towed this morning (before reading this) but that's okay because it's under warranty, I used the free roadside assistance for the tow, and... I didn't understand half of what you said. I was pretty happy to figure out that it probably involved the brake; I'm not sure what the "forks" are much less drain bolt, banjo bolt, caliper, crush washer...

I came from a mechanically disinclined family. My Dad could teach me how to do wiring or fix things around the house, but he refused to learn a single thing about a car. My wife taught me how to check my oil, no joke. I'm not proud, I'm just saying it's very difficult for me to learn about and understand vehicles.

I do like the trick to track down the leak. It was hard to tell where it was coming from, because everything was coated in the substance but I couldn't find a source. It's obviously a slow drip.

I'll let everyone know what the mechanics say. I really appreciate all the help.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:28 pm

Some kind of soldering problem with the front brake fork, apparently. I never could have figured or fixed it myself. I expect it will be covered under warranty, but since they're waiting for a part from Genuine, who knows if I'll get the bike back before Spring? (They've been waiting a couple of months on another part that has cosmetic damage from my crash.)

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:12 pm

I'd be interested in seeing pics of the failure point.

Earlier I wrote: If you want to track down a leak, use your fingers, rags etc. Check the forks.

The forks are the two bars that hold the front wheel; this is your main suspension. Forks dampen jolts to the body by a means of springs and oil. They use the oil to slow down the travel and the springs support the weight while still "giving" into rapid compressions (potholes).

Look at the banjo bolt on the caliper.

A Banjo bolt is a pass through connector that fastens to the caliper and allows the hydrolic brake fluid to pass through - this transfers the pressure from the brake lever to the caliper (the clamp that applies to the disk). It's called a banjo bolt because it sorta looks like one: See pic here, the name comes from the piece on the left .

Those usually have a crush washer that's a one time use item. If the brake line gets knocked out of whack, it could upset the crush washer seal which would cause a leak.

A crush washer is a metal or fiber washer that's intended for use one time. When it's installed, it gets crushed, which conforms it to microscopic irregularities in the surfaces that it's in between. These are mainly used on sealed liquid systems where leaks are a very bad thing.

If the paint is flaking off near the leak, it's brake fluid.

Brake fluid is very caustic. It can break down the painted surface pretty quickly. It basically strips away the paint.

Hope that helps.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:39 pm

Lostmycage wrote:I'd be interested in seeing pics of the failure point.

It's in the service department of the dealer, so I'm afraid I can't offer more than what I've got. I'll try to write down a more technical explanation next time I talk to them, if you're interested.

Thanks very much for the explanation on everything else. The concept of a crush washer is neat, very clever.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:46 pm

Please do. I'm curious as to whether this is a failure in the brake or fork and what they think might have caused it, or if it's a random fluke.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:47 pm

I figured I should at least follow up to say I dropped the ball. I picked up the bike yesterday (yep, took about three weeks) and got in a bit of an unrelated disagreement that distracted me. Fortunately, this work was covered by warranty, whatever it was.