I shouldn't look at Craigslist

joelh · Post by **joelh** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 pm

I love my buddy. That being said, A 2005 stella, grey with red trim, just popped up on one of the local craigslist. I won't sell the buddy, but for a half a minute, I was really tempted. That stella looks awesome!

lojical1 · Post by **lojical1** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:47 pm

I truly agree. And i especially love the shade of blue I saw one in. The dealer had one (used) 2300 miles on it for $2500 in pink. I gave it serious thought for half a second, but thought better on it. Better to start off with an auto and get to manual when I grow up a little

JuliaGrace · Post by **JuliaGrace** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:00 pm

*sigh* If only I could legally acquire a Stella in California

In this fantasy world, I'd also know how to ride a manual transmission scoot. But, dammit I'd learn!

- Julie

sunshinen · Post by **sunshinen** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:06 pm

Yeah, the Stellas are nice. I love that classic look. They're just a tad to big for me to be comfy on though. And with the metal frame, if something happens you'd have a much harder/costlier time getting it fixed.

danix · Post by **danix** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:29 pm

Word is that the Stellas may be coming back soon, even in CA.

ellen · Post by **ellen** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:34 am

I think you should buy this Stella

viewtopic.php?p=13772

Larry J · Post by **Larry J** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:59 am

I have two CL locations on my favorites I check daily. You know what Peter Capstick said " ...when you go looking for something, make sure you really want to find it"

joelh · Post by **joelh** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:05 am

I hopped on the buddy and had a "therapeutic" 10 mile ride. My love remains strong

.

Bryce-O-Rama · Post by **Bryce-O-Rama** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:22 am

JuliaGrace wrote:*sigh* If only I could legally acquire a Stella in California

Find a used one with 7,500+ miles on it. You can legally bring that in.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:55 am

Bryce-O-Rama wrote:
JuliaGrace wrote:*sigh* If only I could legally acquire a Stella in California
Find a used one with 7,500+ miles on it. You can legally bring that in.

Or maybe "with 7500+ miles on it"

.
There are a number of Stellas in CA and I'd sure like to get my hands on one of them.

For the Stella to make a come back and be sold here, though, a few things would have to happen:

1. The factory would have to actually start manufacturing again.
2. Genuine would have to decide if they'd want to stick with making Stellas at that location—or at all.
3. The Stella would have to pass the state's emissions tests. I'd heard this had happened right before they went out of production, but a couple dealers have told me that was not the case.

That said, the demand for new Stellas would be astronomical. Genuine, you guys still reading the forum?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:32 pm

One of the guys in our club used to have a Stella Atomic Fireball. It got swiped.

--Keys

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:41 am

I've been seeing a lot of Stellas on for sale boards/eBay recently. None in CA...
But anyone close to CT should check out Ellen's Fireball Stella, for sale now!
topic1255.html

rickyd410 · Post by **rickyd410** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:41 pm

ericalm wrote:That said, the demand for new Stellas would be astronomical. Genuine, you guys still reading the forum?

Astronomical?? Really?

I think the demand for CVT Buddies is higher than the manual trans Stella. Twist N Go's have a much broader market. I think Genuine knows exactly what they're doing.

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:42 pm

rickyd410 wrote:
ericalm wrote:That said, the demand for new Stellas would be astronomical. Genuine, you guys still reading the forum?
Astronomical?? Really?

I think the demand for CVT Buddies is higher than the manual trans Stella. Twist N Go's have a much broader market. I think Genuine knows exactly what they're doing.

Well, IMHO YOU are right. I asked around, online and at the local dealer,
why the Bajaj Chetak failed in the U. S.

One reason was that it was a manual tranny. U. S. riders want "automatics."

Personal experience, my friend did not want another Chetak this time
around. She bought the Buddy because there was no shifting involved.

I think there will always be a market for the purists who want old style
Vespa manual shifting, but it will be limited to the extent that a manufacturer
cannot survive selling only manual shifting scooters.

Isn't Vespa currently offering a "vintage" Vespa [PX 150] where they mention a
feature is "old school" shifting. But their main line scooters are all
CVT models.

http://www.vespausa.com/Products/PX_150.cfm

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:51 pm

rickyd410 wrote:
ericalm wrote:That said, the demand for new Stellas would be astronomical. Genuine, you guys still reading the forum?
Astronomical?? Really?

I think the demand for CVT Buddies is higher than the manual trans Stella. Twist N Go's have a much broader market. I think Genuine knows exactly what they're doing.

I suspect Genuine wants to bring the Stella back but it hasn't been logistically or economically feasible since the LML plant went on strike. Genuine is in a different place now than a couple of years ago: they have an additional revenue base from the PGO scoots so don't depend 100% on Stella sales and their dealer network is now much larger. The overall market is also different now. The Bajaj Chetak and Vespa PX are no longer being made—that would make the Stella the only factory new manual shifter for sale in the US.

True, demand for TNGs is high, but it's heavily fragmented due the broad array of options on the market. The Stella's main competition would be used/vintage scoots and new Vespas. (There's also a new, faux-Lambretta in the works that may not ever actually go into production.) The overall U.S. scooter market is growing as well. The great thing about the Stella is that—thanks to its features, style and pricing—it will attract buyers from all segments of the scooter/two-wheeled world.

The already "astronomical" demand for Buddys would help drive demand for Stellas, with the Buddy acting as a "starter scooter." Anecdotal evidence: There have been a number of MB members who traded up to bigger scooters or purchased second or third scooters within a year of buying a Bud. My wife, for one, wouldn't look at my scooter a year and a half ago but now says she's gladly trade in her Buddy for a Stella should they become available.

The Stella also has much more appeal to the more dedicated scooterist segment that may not consider buying a plastic Asian scoot like the Buddy. This includes people who already ride vintage scoots and are looking for a more reliable daily ride with a warranty. There are also new scooterists who have always had their hearts set on a "vintage" scooter but feel more comfortable buying new and those with slightly bigger budgets than the average Buddy buyer who might otherwise probably buy a Vespa.

Most people's mental image of a "scooter" still looks more like a Stella than a Buddy. The Stella has the romantic/emotional connections that often drive people to buy Vespas as well as the P-series lineage. I would have bought one instead of my LX150 had a new Stella been an option.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm

I will make myself look dumb in here...but why can't they have a Stella or Bajaj style scooter that is metel and retro styled but twist and go? I do almost all urban driving and from what I can tell from other boards and from people who have both types of bikes that manual is more enjoyable on the open road and TNG in the city. Heck look at Europeans, the original scooter enthusiasts...they are mostly driving automatics.

I swooned over the Stellas when I got the buddy, but did not want to learn to shift and scoot at the same time. Now I think I could handle it, but prefer the ease of TNG. It also seems like the Buddys are a little more reliable then the Stellas. But I could be wrong on that.

rickyd410 · Post by **rickyd410** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:03 pm

ericalm wrote:The Bajaj Chetak and Vespa PX are no longer being made—that would make the Stella the only factory new manual shifter for sale in the US.

Eh.. There are still plenty of shifters out there to buy. I just don't see the demand being great enough to constitute their production. Just my opinion.

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:06 pm

ericalm wrote:
rickyd410 wrote:
ericalm wrote:That said, the demand for new Stellas would be astronomical. Genuine, you guys still reading the forum?
Astronomical?? Really?

I think the demand for CVT Buddies is higher than the manual trans Stella. Twist N Go's have a much broader market. I think Genuine knows exactly what they're doing.
I suspect Genuine wants to bring the Stella back but it hasn't been logistically or economically feasible since the LML plant went on strike. Genuine is in a different place now than a couple of years ago: they have an additional revenue base from the PGO scoots so don't depend 100% on Stella sales and their dealer network is now much larger. The overall market is also different now. The Bajaj Chetak and Vespa PX are no longer being made—that would make the Stella the only factory new manual shifter for sale in the US.

True, demand for TNGs is high, but it's heavily fragmented due the broad array of options on the market. The Stella's main competition would be used/vintage scoots and new Vespas. (There's also a new, faux-Lambretta in the works that may not ever actually go into production.) The overall U.S. scooter market is growing as well. The great thing about the Stella is that—thanks to its features, style and pricing—it will attract buyers from all segments of the scooter/two-wheeled world.

Your comments are right on. IMHO though, the larger, high volume sales
will always be the CVT models. This is simply because how Americans
think about "motorcycles" [the average consumer does not differentiate
between scooters and motorcycles].

I think scooters will go the way of cars, the masses in the U.S.
like cars with automatic transmissions, so too will they prefer scooters
with CVT.

For sure, Barry at SF Scooter Centre [who has been running his biz since
1983, WOW] said that the problem with the Bajaj is that he could not sell
the Chetak because "I had to teach people how to drive em."

I noted that his entire stock are now the various models with CVT. He does
have a lot of 2006 Chetaks which are not selling.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:22 pm

Volume for CVTs will always be higher, sure. That's why there are dozens of makes & models for sale these days...

But, I think that "astronomical" (as hyperbolic as that is in the first place) should be put into perspective... The Stella will appeal to those I described above. I think the Chetak is less appealing for a lot of reasons: overall, not as attractive as the Stella, not as compatible will all P-series accessories, reputation in scooter community not as strong, has more of an Asian import stigma (for the die hards who can at least say that Stellas were developed by a bunch of US scooterheads who simply went overseas for production) right down to a name that most neophytes have trouble pronouncing.

Genuine also had a pretty solid marketing campaign for the Stella—well designed, tapped into the romance of the scooter vibe, and as humorous and clever as calling a PGO a "Series Italia." Bajaj? Not so much. I think overall, Genuine does a much better job of packaging and selling their scoots.

rickyd410 · Post by **rickyd410** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:32 pm

ericalm wrote:But, I think that "astronomical" (as hyperbolic as that is in the first place) should be put into perspective... The Stella will appeal to those I described above.

I think that's the point. They appeal to a VERY targeted audience. Is it enough to warrant production? Perhaps it will be. I would love to see more Stellas on the road.

EAG19 · Post by **EAG19** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:00 pm

peabody99 wrote:I will make myself look dumb in here...but why can't they have a Stella or Bajaj style scooter that is metel and retro styled but twist and go?

I'm wondering the same thing... Anyone?

lojical1 · Post by **lojical1** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:16 pm

ericalm wrote:The already "astronomical" demand for Buddys would help drive demand for Stellas, with the Buddy acting as a "starter scooter." Anecdotal evidence: There have been a number of MB members who traded up to bigger scooters or purchased second or third scooters within a year of buying a Bud. My wife, for one, wouldn't look at my scooter a year and a half ago but now says she's gladly trade in her Buddy for a Stella should they become available.

I definitely know that once I become as adept as some of the marathon scooters on here I would like to get a Stella. To me its a very "grown up" scooter, not to learn on but to enjoy. No one's starter ride is a Maybach and I don't expect to jump feet first into two completely alien experiences ( one being two-wheeldom, the other being the manual).

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:14 am

Good news, EAG19 and Peabody...CMSI/TnG is working on what they call the "L Series". It is essentially a modern twist-n-go scooter utilizing Piaggio's 250cc QUASAR engine and CVT set-up that has the physical styling of a late-sixties/early seventies Lambretta. Initially, they had some issues with getting proportions right as adapted to the modern drivetrain, but after about a year of monkeying around with it, it now looks right enough that I would love to get my hands on one. It may be a couple of years before it hits production, though. For more info, check out page 18 of the spring issue of Scoot! Magazine.

--Keys

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:25 am

Keys wrote:Good news, EAG19 and Peabody...CMSI/TnG is working on what they call the "L Series". It is essentially a modern twist-n-go scooter utilizing Piaggio's 250cc QUASAR engine and CVT set-up that has the physical styling of a late-sixties/early seventies Lambretta. Initially, they had some issues with getting proportions right as adapted to the modern drivetrain, but after about a year of monkeying around with it, it now looks right enough that I would love to get my hands on one. It may be a couple of years before it hits production, though. For more info, check out page 18 of the spring issue of Scoot! Magazine.

This is the "faux-Lambretta" I mentioned earlier—the recent version has been at some of the recent motor shows. Looks pretty cool but still in need of some work—I hear the back end is still quite wide. I hope it's not plagued by the quality problems that reportedly plagued TnG (according to what I've read and heard from some dealers—I know there's a TnG following, so please don't gang up on me here...

)

EAG19 · Post by **EAG19** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:41 pm

Are the LX series Vespas twist and go or are all Vespas manual?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:11 pm

Yes, the LX series is twist-n-go.

And the new faux-Lambretta is powered by the Piaggio engine...same one that's in the GTS, but yeah, there's a lot of other stuff that could make a good drivetrain still unusable...wiring, etc. We'll have to wait and see....

--Keys

louie · Post by **louie** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:32 pm

For one, I prefer form follow function theory. So give me my slim small buddy and I'd love a stella-like manual someday also. I don't think I'd buy an older model that will exfixiate those behind me though.

I don't think there will ever be a lack of manual enthusists. Just like cars, manuals will always exists. Maybe not in as many numbers as automatics but definately equal in passion.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:34 pm

yes this beauty is twist and go, but at double the cost of the buddy...I dont think so.

http://www.vespausa.com/products/GTVAndLXVc.cfm

I think Genuine needs to encourage pgo to mkae one.

scooterbuttons · Post by **scooterbuttons** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:16 pm

I'm not grasping this discussion.
Why would you buy a Buddy when you want to shift and if you wanted a Stella but couldn't find one, you could have gone for any of the P series vintage Vespas they all look the same and they are legal everywhere.

I bought the Buddy because I liked the entire package. Price, lack of availability of another model had nothing to do with my decision.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:26 pm

I have to agree with Scooterbuttons. You buy what you buy because you want it and it fits a niche in your life. You have another niche needs filled, get what fills that. I have owned a number of vintage Vespas and probably will again. I currently own a Buddy and a Helix because they fit what I wanted and needed at the time. I didn't compare them to something else and wish they were something else. If I wanted something else, I would have bought it. I am SO confused...

--Keys

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:38 am

It's really not a matter of "bought a Buddy because a Stella wasn't available." I like both! We got the Buddy because it suited our needs at the time. But as soon as I got my first scoot, I realized that I would want others and more as time went by. As I've said in other threads, for my next scoot (which may be in addition to rather than instead of my current ones), I'd be happy with one of a number of both modern or vintage models. Just depends on what's available, if I find a deal, or if I'm looking for something to mod out, tour the coast, or whatever when the time comes.

I don't think expressing desire to own a Stella in any way takes away from the Buddy and satisfaction with the Buddy, even if the plan is to replace the Buddy with a Stella. The Buddy is a much better scoot for a first time rider, is less expensive, and a heck of a lot cheaper to fix when dropped. It's also crazy fun to ride. But just as I'd like to replace my '91 VW Cabriolet with an A4 Wagon or A3, I know someday we'll want something other than the Buddy.

scooterbuttons · Post by **scooterbuttons** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:15 am

Yep, as soon as you buy one other scoots are sure to follow and if you get into the rally scene, which I'm sure some of you have started....you see all those P200's and Stellas and you think you must have one to fit in.

There are other long time rally goers that can't stand the look of a P or Stella and the Vespa Rally 200 is as new of a Vespa as they would ever consider. I own a P and I even think it's clunky, not the nice sexy wasp lines of earlier ones but it is a reliable workhorse. The P is the one I take when riding with a group as I wouldn't care if it was scratched or dented and those are the things that tend to happen at a rally.
You can't please everyone, you just gotta please yourself.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:27 am

...which is why every scooterist needs a huge garage with a small attached house.

--Keys

scooterbuttons · Post by **scooterbuttons** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:57 am

Keys wrote:...which is why every scooterist needs a huge garage with a small attached house.

--Keys

Thats for sure Keys! I'm so overwhelmed when I open my garage and look at rows of scooters and MC's. Our neighbors look at us like we are running some sort of business and down right crazy "scooter trash"

I've been trying to narrow the herd but we get these crazy attachments and find every reason to keep them.
I think we decided today to sell the P200 and 2 motorcycles and that will leave us with 5

scooterbuttons · Post by **scooterbuttons** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:00 am

that gives you every reason to avoid Craigslist

scooterbuttons · Post by **scooterbuttons** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:40 pm

louie wrote:I'd love a stella-like manual someday also. I don't think I'd buy an older model that will exfixiate those behind me though.

Problem with the Stella is it blows 2-stroke just the same as the older Vespas do, so not only does it exfixiate those behind you, it leaves a big bad "footprint" on the environment.

If Stella makes a reappearance, it most defiantly will be a 4-stroke... as will anything manual that makes its way to the US market.

As people go more "green" I can imagine many people selling off to buy something more environmentally friendly.

rickyd410 · Post by **rickyd410** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:43 pm

I wouldn't get a Stella for that reason.

Fueldrum · Post by **Fueldrum** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:45 pm

I concur on the environmental front. One of the big reasons I got a scooter was to be less pollutive, through a combo of much less gas and much cleaner exhaust.

I'd love to get into manually shifting on my scooter one day(I drive a stickshift car when forced to drive a car), but not unless it's a 4-stroke.

Plus the added longevity/reliability of a 4-stroke.

And they sound better.

And chicks dig 'um.

And....crap I got nothin'....

scooterbuttons · Post by **scooterbuttons** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:17 pm

I feel so guilty every time I ride my P200 or SmallFrame Vespas that I'm actually selling the P and will keep the SmallFrame as it is a piece of art to me and like a family member.

I love riding my buddy, it does everything I need in a scooter.

Bryce-O-Rama · Post by **Bryce-O-Rama** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:28 am

San Francisco wrote:Well, IMHO YOU are right. I asked around, online and at the local dealer, why the Bajaj Chetak failed in the U. S.

One reason was that it was a manual tranny. U. S. riders want "automatics."

Bajaj in India stopped making the Chetak. While it was being manufactured it sold fairly well here in the US. The stockpile that Bajaj USA has is still in some demand, from what I've been hearing. I would hardly call the Chetak and Legend failures in our market.

If I had to pick one primary reason that the ruggedly reliable Chetak didn't sell in greater numbers here, it would be marketing and branding. The Stella had a name and an image that really resonated quite positively with many people. Sadly, Bajaj Chetak just doesn't quite roll off the tongue as nicely. Bajaj USA focused primarily on reliability, quality, and fuel economy in their advertisements and marketing material. Virtually no attention was given to the fun side of things. Honestly, I have yet to meet a scooter owner who bought solely for the mileage. Actually, I've never met one who did not replace a car with a scooter. Most people are looking for something fun, and the fuel economy is a splendid justification.

Neither company is large, and both have carried high quality products. Genuine and Bajaj/Argo USA both have solid reputations for dealer and customer support. One company has obviously crafted a message and brand that really taps into what potential scooter owners want to experience. Today's customers pretty much automatically expect reliability and quality. It's one of those things that's generally taken for granted in this day and age. In our market where choices are abundant and there are few truly bad ones you can make, the emotional appeal of any given product is typically the biggest thing separating it from its competitors.

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:57 am

Well I had some funny money recently and could have bought any scooter
I wanted. But like I said in another post, I think Vespas are too expensive
for a scooter.

When I went in to the dealer to get another Bajaj Chetak [because I owned
one before and I love the manual tranny on the hills], the dealer said
"look at this Buddy Italia, this is what you want].

The dealer knew my tastes and had seen my R1, Ducati 998 and other
bikes, so when he said "this is what you want" I listened.

Once I took the Italia for a ride and looked it over for fit and finish I did
not hesitate to make the purchase, even though I could have looked
around for a Stella, Ricardo, or something else.

Riding an "automatic" scooter is a trip, especially since I have been shifting
for so many years.

Bottom line: I bought the Buddy because it's 1) cool looking; 2) excellent
fit and finish; 3) smooth and comfortable; 4) lots of power [I can't believe how fast it is off
the line when the light turns green]; 5) an unbelievable warranty; and 6)
the dealer said I should buy it.

But in line with the other member's post, I'll keep the Buddy and
buy another scooter, something vintage or retro.

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:08 am

Bryce-O-Rama wrote:
San Francisco wrote:Well, IMHO YOU are right. I asked around, online and at the local dealer, why the Bajaj Chetak failed in the U. S.

One reason was that it was a manual tranny. U. S. riders want "automatics."
Bajaj in India stopped making the Chetak. While it was being manufactured it sold fairly well here in the US. The stockpile that Bajaj USA has is still in some demand, from what I've been hearing. I would hardly call the Chetak and Legend failures in our market.

If I had to pick one primary reason that the ruggedly reliable Chetak didn't sell in greater numbers here, it would be marketing and branding. ...

Totally agree with you on the name issue. I think a BIG failure was
Bajaj not coming up with some snappy name for the Chetak in the U.S.
market. When I rode my Chetak around town people thought it was a
Vespa and I never corrected people. The people that asked me about the
brand of the scooter they never did understand what the heck I was saying.

I mean, look at Buddy calling my scooter the Italia. That's smart marketing.

But I do think that branding was only part of the problem. Volume sales
will go to the manufacturers who focus on offering mostly CVT
models, such as what Vespa has done.

Here is my Vespa [aka Chetak] that I sold about a year ago. I think it
was the hottest looking Bajaj in San Francisco.

One time a CHP officer pulled up next to me at stoplight, on his BMW
motorcycle. He kept staring at my Chetak then said "beautiful restoration."

I did not want to burst his bubble, so I said "Thanks." He then said
"bet that took a of work" and I said "Oh, don't ask." Lucky he did not
pull me over and arrest me for lying to a police officer.

weaseltamer · Post by **weaseltamer** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:07 am

Bryce-O-Rama wrote:
Most people are looking for something fun, and the fuel economy is a splendid justification.

That is me right there. don't tell my mom tho.

louie · Post by **louie** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:39 pm

weaseltamer wrote:
Bryce-O-Rama wrote:
Most people are looking for something fun, and the fuel economy is a splendid justification.
That is me right there. don't tell my mom tho.

Right'o

How much cleaner does the Chetak 4 stroke run than the 2 stroke stella. How does Chetak compare to Buddy in exhaust?

Modern Buddy

I shouldn't look at Craigslist

I shouldn't look at Craigslist

yes indeed - Craigslist =

Stella vs Buddy, 2 completely different animals