Losing sleep: dreaming about Blackjack vs. Vespa!

[pyrocpu]

This is not healthy.

At all.

I'm having super trouble deciding between a new Blackjack (figure on about $4100 OTD), and a used 2004 Vespa GT200. Mileage on the Vespa is <1000mi. Owner indicates it's been pulled out of the garage and sent to the Vespa store for a tune-up. This Vesa is just a shade over $3k.

As such, I've come up w/ a quick list of the pros/cons of each... can you guys help point out additional points I haven't considered?

Blackjack
Pros
* Warranty & Roadside assistance
* No one else around here has one
* It looks great! Sounds terrific!
* MPG is a bit better, but we're starting to split hairs here
* More tossable, maneuverable
* It's new, dangit. I like new shiny things (OK the BJ is flat-black)
* I'm led to believe the long-term quality & durability is better than that of the Vespa.
* I prefer the look of the Buddy ever-so-slightly more than the Vespa...
* ModernBuddy > ModernVespa, especially after Eric banned Scoot3r...

Cons
* It's $4100. We're in the worst recession in modern times, for chrissake!
* Comfortable for long rides? A few folks have ridden a Buddy cross country, so it's do-able I suppose, but then again, some folks are willing to ride a bicycle across the US of A too...
* Perceived quality, such as the quality of the switchgear, panel gaps, etc. isn't as good as the Vespa
* Centerstand seems "lower" than the Vespa. I scraped the centerstand on a test ride!
* Is 150cc "enough?"


5 year old Vespa GT200
Pros
* Great resale. I could sell this thing in a year for about what I paid for it
* It's roughly $1k less than the new Blackjack
* Perceived quality (as mentioned above) seems better than the Buddy
* On-road ride is more comfortable than a Blackjack
* Rear brakes seem to operate better on the Vespa
* Front brakes aren't as grabby as the Buddy
* Additional displacement, a bit better max speed?
* Rides noticeable more stable at speed
* The Vespa just rides great, damnit!

Cons
* Insurance more expensive than Buddy? Haven't called my ins. agent yet
* I drop the Vespa once, it's $$$$ to fix
* Reliability < Buddy?
* Maintenance costs more? I did see the Buddy seems to have rather short mileage intervals between maintenance... a bit discouraging
* Decidedly less tossable; less maneuverable, esp. at low speeds
* I can't find a local GTS250; I really like the idea of fuel injection over a carburetor.
* I really would want the GTS300ie in a few years

Purpose of either
* Trying to convince myself I can commute year round on it. Temps here vary from 100F to 20F; work is 15mi ea/way on mostly 2-lane roads (1 lane each way)
* Pleasure rides on the weekend, mostly in back country roads. Road conditions vary from new pavement to broken, 20 year old asphalt
* Still keeping the cage
* Rides w/ friends. FWIW, one has a 50cc Aprilia SR50 2-stroker; another has a new 2009 Zuma 125
* Will do what it takes (financially) to get either scooter
* Not considering a Buddy 125 or an International anymore...
* I weigh 140lbs, 5'9", and very very unlikely to ride 2-up on either (Blackjack would clearly need the standard seat to do this)
* Moderately hilly around here, though definitely not mountainous.

Now what? It's past 2AM here and I'm stone cold sober!

Thoughts/comments?

[JSharpPhoto]

go with the vespa. it's a more solid ride due the solid frame, better for riding two-up, and as you mentioned it, it'll retain it's resale value.

[peabody99]

as much as I love Buddy's and warrentys, I agree about the Vespa b/c on the comfort and power for your 2 riding EDIT- I misunderstood and see you won't be doing much.
My premium for my 2007 GTS is 2x as much as the 2007 Buddy. Just get a quote though since the vespa is older than mine. I understand the BJ has a smooter ride than regular budds

[accountantstan]

I think from your previous post you are a fellow Middle Tennessean. If so, did you see the Vespa with 4 miles on it down in Murfreesboro. It is listed at a pretty good cost as well. For insurance, my Buddy was next to nothing to insure with Farm Bureau. That Black Jack down at East Side Scooters is so sweet as well. Trying to choose between the two is kind of like choosing between Ginger and MaryAnn. Have fun.

[hcstrider]

You can not go wrong with either choice, both the Genuine Blackjack and the Vespa GT200 are excellent quality scooters.

One thing that you did not mention was how close the Genuine and Vespa dealers were. When I purchased my Buddys, I was unfamiliar with scooters so I wanted a scooter that was new with a good warranty and a dealer nearby to service my scooter. For me the Buddy was an excellent choice.

Now that I have more experience with scooters, I would purchase the Vespa GT200. I am comfortable with doing a lot of repairs myself so even though this used Vespa does not have a warranty, if it appeared to be in good mechanical and cosmetic condition I would pick the Vespa. Also for me both of the Genuine dealers that I go to also are dealers for Vespa so they could always handle repairs that were beyond my ability.

I have owned my Buddy Italia for a couple of years and I am exceedingly satisfied with the quality and performance of this scooter. It does everything that I need it to do. However if I had to purchase a replacement scooter, I would pick the Vespa GT200 because in my opinion the quality of the Vespa is better and it would keep me happy for a long time.

[pyrocpu]

Accountant Stan--you have PM

Wow, lots of votes here for the pre-owned Vespa!

As far as the dealer question goes, both the (sole) Genuine store in town and the Vespa store are both about equidistant. I do like the Genuine dealer much better though--it's a scooter exclusive store; they're friendly, super helpful and they give me warm fuzzies.
The closest Vespa store is a bit snobby. The one further away... hell, that's a 40min drive via cage, via interstate! They're a lot nicer though.

I reallyreallyreally am afraid of metalwork damage on the Vespa, even if it's a 0mph drop (say for instance, sand/oil/water at a stoplight), in reading some of the posts at ModernVespa. Granted I *could* get crash bars for it, but JFC, the prices for Vespa accessories is nuts. My main impetus for getting into scooters is trying to get away from my other expensive hobby, taking my car to open track days & adding parts to that.

The other alternative would be... buying the Blackjack now, then in 3 years, buy a new Vespa GTS250/300 (and still keep the BJ)... I've already seriously given thought to selling my car, take that $20K and buy both a new Blackjack AND a new Vespa!!

[narcoleptic]

You seem to be concerned about laying it down, and buddy panels are much more inexpensive to replace. Also, you mentioned that you really like the Genuine dealer. That's another plus. If you buy the BJ, you will have the 2 year warranty and road side assistance.

They both seem to be great scoots. I would say that if you have the money to maintain the Vespa, go for it. I know that the initial purchase investment will be less, but maintance in the long run would potentially be a lot more. If your current economic situation allows you to spend more up-front but less in maintenance, then go for the BJ.

[BuddyLicious]

3rd choice,buy you 2 lightly used Buddy 125's for about 3800 - 4000 bux.I have seen lightly used almost new 125's all summer for 1800-2000 bux Then have one for a friend,relative to ride with you.Or just to have for variety. Then of course go have fun.

Ok ok I know this didn't answer your question.Sorry....

[jrsjr]

2004 GT200... I've come up w/ a quick list of the pros/cons of each... can you guys help point out additional points I haven't considered?

I had a 2004 GT200L. I thought it was the best scooter ever. I traded it on a GTS250ie and was sorry that I did. The only con I can add to your list from my experience was that the GT200 I traded developed a problem with the ECU module after I traded it. I later heard that ECU failures were fairly common with the 2004 GT at approximately the same mileage as mine, 6000+.

[peabody99]

what was wrong with the 250?

[maribell]

Read this one:
viewtopic.php?t=12169&highlight=vespa

[DennisD]

Dude, think of your country!! Unemployment is high, claims of the recession being over are optimistic but unproven. Do the right thing, buy them both! Then you won't lose sleep worrying whether or not you bought the right one.

[brad.orchard]

I'm having super trouble deciding between a new Blackjack (figure on about $4100 OTD)

$4100? The Blackjack is selling in OKC for 3400. Sounds like someone is trying to screw you on price. Shop around

[pyrocpu]

$3400 including tax & setup & other fees?

The store here is selling for the MSRP of $3499 + ~ 9% state sales tax + $240 delivery + $100 for tags (there's only ~$19 markup here; $19 for someone else to wait in line for me at the DMV), so that's about $4100.

If it's $3400 out the door, I'm driving to OKC next weekend! Do you know for sure if it's an OTD price??

[narcoleptic]

I'm having super trouble deciding between a new Blackjack (figure on about $4100 OTD)

$4100? The Blackjack is selling in OKC for 3400. Sounds like someone is trying to screw you on price. Shop around

The list is $3500 plus the dealer set-up fee and shipping. I'd be suprised to see a BJ for $3400 out the door.

[KCScooterDude]

I am constantly losing sleep dreaming of other scooters (and sometimes motorcycles). For me, having ridden a Vespa, if cost was not a major issue I would buy the Vespa. In my opinion, there are scooters, then there are Vespas. There's just nothing like them.

[peabody99]

I always said I would never pay for a new Vespa. If the right used one ever came a along then it was meant to be. If not I would never be the wiser. So I got a good deal on a used one....holy cow I get the obsession now. That said, I have riden a 50 vespa and a 50 buddy and I would not pay the price difference for those. The Buddy was faster. Same could probably be said for the 125/150., although I have not riden a vespa 150, I have smoked them off the line on the stock Buddy.

The GTS ( and I suspect the GT ) is an exquisite ride. I have to say if gosh forbid something happened to this thing, I would take a second job if needed to get another.

[brad.orchard]

If it's $3400 out the door, I'm driving to OKC next weekend! Do you know for sure if it's an OTD price??

Contact Atomic Brown Scooter Shop, in Oklahoma City. I'm almost certain that they were selling for just above MSRP

[pyrocpu]

OK. I rode the GT200 today.

Additional Pros
* Front AND rear disc brakes!
- Very easy to modulate
* Peppy! High 60mph range on flats, hit ~74mph (indicated) on a very slight downhill
* Very stable at speed
* Found out the owner replaced the battery, and had a full-tune up just a month ago

Additional cons
* I weigh 140lbs. Vespa seems like about twice my weight. It's very difficult to get off of the centerstand!
* Low speed maneuverability seemed noticeably easier on the Blackjack; Blackjack is definitely more maneuverable
* A coupla minor dings
* Tough to get on AND off of the centerstand. This is probably my biggest gripe.
* Build quality wasn't as stellar as I thought. Good, but not impeccable.
* Turn signal switch is kinduva stretch for my thumb...

Neutral observations
* Acceleration to 35mph seemed to be the same as the Blackjack. 35-50mph, the Vespa seemed to have a bit of acceleration advantage vs. the Blackjack; above 50mph, definitely Vespa.
* When braking very hard, the Vespa seems to not nosedive very much at all.
* Vespa seems like a mature person's scooter; Blackjack seems more like an active person's scooter--more flickable, OK dangit, I'll say it: Blackjack just seems more fun!

It's interesting; about 2 weeks ago, I was 90% set on a new Blackjack. Now, having test ridden a couple of Vespas, and with all your input, I'm now 80% set on this 5-year old GT200. Tomorrow I'll call to see what the insurance rates are on each, to Peabody99's point. That may end up being the deciding factor... if annual insurance is really 2x more, I may be back looking at a Blackjack...

Brad.orchard--I'll call up Atomic tomorrow... Nothing against OKC, that's just a long haul for me! Gasoline for a pickup truck would be about $225, plus hotel at $75... That's $300 bucks... I wonder if I could get away w/ not having to pay sales tax being out of state and all...

[DennisD]

... I wonder if I could get away w/ not having to pay sales tax being out of state and all...

Probably, but you would have to pay it in your state when registering. I bought a new scooter out of state and was given a temporary tag to ride back to Florida. I paid sales tax when I registered it in Florida.

[UnionZac]

The other thing to consider, is that if you opt to go around your local dealer by buying out of state, in the long run you'll still want to, and probably need to build a relationship with a local scooter dealer. Might be worth factoring in.

A friend of mine bought a used GT200, and when I took it for a ride it was a night and day difference. The power feels substantial, but you definitely have to work in the turns. When I hopped back on my buddy it felt like I was on a dirtbike. I love my buddy, but I think I could love a GT200 just as easily.

[pyrocpu]

That's exactly what I'm running up against--having to work the turns very differently. I'm actually not to keen on the weight of the scooter (~320lbs I think?) and the resulting loss of maneuverability, and the difficulty of the center stand's operation. I'm really afraid I'll drop it, and quickly too. I really liked how nimble the Blackjack is.

Yesterday I was ~80% in favor of the Vespa; today, that's only 20%. That's right, I'm leaning back to the Blackjack.

The Vespa really rode like a car. It's super smooth. I feel nothing of the road. I like the feel of the road. It's a part of the experience that I desire out of scooting.

I want both!!!

Peabody--I checked w/ my insurance company: a new 09 Blackjack has about 35% of a premium over that of the 04 Vespa GT200!!! But, in the grand scheme of things, we're talking <$70/yr difference. The difference is essentially incidental at that rate. This is for comprehensive w/ a $250 deductible.

[peabody99]

you may have made tour decison...but I thought I would weigh on on the center stand thing. ITA it is hard to get it on there, but it gets easier with practice-and I weigh less than you and probably the 250 is heavier. I do like that with the Buddy, I can pop it up anywhere and be able to get it on the stand w/o a fight. If there is any hill/grade it is hard with the Vespa. When riding it though, I do not think it is cumbersome at all- and JMO, you do still feel the road, just not in jaw clattering way.

The dirt bike analogy is a good one. If I am going less than 2 miles from home, I have at times happily chosen the Buddy. I can park it anywhere and not worry about it. I am not going to drop it-unless someone hits me or I wreck. Having the vespa channels all that anal energy onto it, so the Buddy can just be a calm karma ride. Of course I am sure you will worry about the well being of a brand new BJ as much as a vespa.

[pyrocpu]

It may seem like I'm making excuses, but I *think* these are valid concerns in my situation...

* In my garage, I have a 3' wide x 7' spot where I can put a scooter. I really don't have any excess room over that. As such, I'd have to park the Vespa exactly within those bounds. With such tight confines in my garage, that's where I'm worried about dropping it. My wife jokingly suggested I could put my car outside. Haha, honey. NFW.
* Ideally, the parking spot/scooter shouldn't be longer than 6'. Things start getting in the way after that.
* When I looked at the GT200, I noticed the fold-out rear pegs were "dirty." Then I noticed that area where the floorboard meets the engine cowling had about a 1" gap. I quickly reviewed a picture I had taken while I was there, then it clicked: it's overspray from a repair job... hmmm...

And yes, as Peabody deduced (and likely many others!), I'm a pretty picky/anal retentive guy. As such, the Vespa, while a veryvery good deal, may not quite fit the bill... still not 100% there, but we'll see what happens.

[KCScooterDude]

The other thing to consider, is that if you opt to go around your local dealer by buying out of state, in the long run you'll still want to, and probably need to build a relationship with a local scooter dealer. Might be worth factoring in.

A friend of mine bought a used GT200, and when I took it for a ride it was a night and day difference. The power feels substantial, but you definitely have to work in the turns. When I hopped back on my buddy it felt like I was on a dirtbike. I love my buddy, but I think I could love a GT200 just as easily.

There is one theory out there that you never want to have your vehicle serviced the same place you bought it, particularly if you got a good deal. They will make their money back and then some when the do the service/repairs.

Having said that, I have my Genuine serviced the same place I bought it and love my dealer. I'm just sayin'....

[pyrocpu]

The other thing to consider, is that if you opt to go around your local dealer by buying out of state, in the long run you'll still want to, and probably need to build a relationship with a local scooter dealer. Might be worth factoring in.

A friend of mine bought a used GT200, and when I took it for a ride it was a night and day difference. The power feels substantial, but you definitely have to work in the turns. When I hopped back on my buddy it felt like I was on a dirtbike. I love my buddy, but I think I could love a GT200 just as easily.

There is one theory out there that you never want to have your vehicle serviced the same place you bought it, particularly if you got a good deal. They will make their money back and then some when the do the service/repairs.

Having said that, I have my Genuine serviced the same place I bought it and love my dealer. I'm just sayin'....

The biggest fear I have is this scenario...
Me to local dealer: Can you match/beat the price dealer XYZ has, 100mi away?
Local dealer: LOL
Me: Goes to XYZ to buy a scoot, 100mi away
Me, in 8mo: Dang, this scoot won't start... <takes to local dealer>
Local dealer: <smirks> ... This looks like you've abused the scoot! Warranty? Hah!
Me:

Sigh.

[Nickie McNichols]

Begging your pardon, I'm brand new here, but this seems like way too much deliberation. You aren't comparing apples to apples here. The Vespa is obviously the higher quality scooter (sorry, Buddy owners). But, the Buddy may just serve you better. You have to ask yourself: What do I want this scooter for? They are two completely different types of scooter. I wouldn't hesitate to take off across the state on a big Vespa, but there's no way in he-- I'd attempt it on my 150, or a Buddy. Also, are you willing to work on the Vespa yourself, if you don't like the dealer, or do you want the nice guys at Genuine to do all your work?

[pyrocpu]

While I can understand the confusion, I believe that this situation is not unlike that of consumer purchase behaviour of other products.

Two examples:
1. You're in the market for a new car. You have $35K to spend. Do you buy a new Nissan 370Z sports car you've been eying? Or do you buy the 4-year old BMW 5-series? Two totally different products for totally different purposes. But you like both, and each has its pros & cons. For me, I'm the guy who weighs the "newness" factor (i.e.: no one else has driven the new 370Z) much heavier than most.

2. You're 6mo into your 2-year cell phone contract with AT&T. You discover your basic free phone just really isn't holding up. Plus the dog's been gnawing on it periodically. Do you pay outright for a new mid-level phone, at say, $300, or do you check on eBay and see if you can snap up someone's iPhone 3G for $250?

In both cases, you can have the brand prestige of the premium brands. It's an issue of price point. "I have X dollars in my wallet; what does that get me?" But in the case of example #1, it's probably safe to say that the Nissan would likely have better reliability than the BMW. And when the Nissan does need to go in for repair, its maintenance is probably going to be more affordable than the BMW. Same analogy applies here for the Buddy vs. Vespa.

As far as uses, it's exclusively an around-town runabout. For long-distance touring--heck, I don't have patience enough as it is in a cage, let alone a scoot! Touring is N/A here. Maintenance--I've done a few engine swaps in my time, for automobiles. Maintaining a scoot doesn't really faze me much by relative example. Having said that, it's really where I end up purchasing a scoot. If I buy from the local dealer, sure, I'll go to him. But if I don't by the scoot from him, I'm not sure if I'll be getting any angst from the dealer as someone else had mentioned, and risk any potential spurious repairs, etc.

As such, I'm leaning 95% into the Blackjack at this current juncture.

[peabody99]

both are great bikes. At this point you need to follow your heart and not your head.

[pyrocpu]

both are great bikes. At this point you need to follow your heart and not your head.

I think you've nailed it... you're absolutely right... I hadn't thought of it that way until you mentioned it!

[DennisD]

Begging your pardon, I'm brand new here, but this seems like way too much deliberation. You aren't comparing apples to apples here. The Vespa is obviously the higher quality scooter (sorry, Buddy owners). But, the Buddy may just serve you better. You have to ask yourself: What do I want this scooter for? They are two completely different types of scooter. I wouldn't hesitate to take off across the state on a big Vespa, but there's no way in he-- I'd attempt it on my 150, or a Buddy. Also, are you willing to work on the Vespa yourself, if you don't like the dealer, or do you want the nice guys at Genuine to do all your work?

I would not hesitate to ride my Buddy across the state. As a matter of fact... HEY PENSACOLA GUYS, WANNA RIDE TO TALLAHASSEE AND BACK ON A SATURDAY REAL SOON? Should be about 500 miles round trip. There's a hot dog stand over there on Capitol St. I've heard good things about. Sounds like a good enough reason for a road trip!

[Nickie McNichols]

DennisD,
I didn't mean to put up a dare, LOL. I just meant that I don't know Buddies well enough to buy one for touring. I wouldn't think twice about having one for running around town on, but I'm real leery of traveling long distances on anything that small. I never take my 150 very far from Pinellas County. Please keep in mind, that I am used to a full size Harley Davidson, which was my former ride (3X)

[dsmith65]

I'd attempt it on my 150, or a Buddy.

Actually there have beeen several members who have ridden substantial distances on their Buddy's. Alix circled the US, Jason just got done riding from New Jersey to LA, both of those were on the 125. And this week, Todd is riding his 50cc around lake Michigan.

Not that long rides are for everyone, and some long rides have seriously damaged the scooters, but I noticed you don't have a Buddy, so I'm guessing you aren't as familiar with them and their capabilities.

[DennisD]

DennisD,
I didn't mean to put up a dare, LOL. I just meant that I don't know Buddies well enough to buy one for touring. I wouldn't think twice about having one for running around town on, but I'm real leery of traveling long distances on anything that small. I never take my 150 very far from Pinellas County. Please keep in mind, that I am used to a full size Harley Davidson, which was my former ride (3X)

No, I didn't take it as a dare. I just like to ride and am very confident in my Buddy. I prefer long rides and don't get to do enough of them. The every day commute is nice but I reaaaaally like long rides. Longest on the Buddy so far was 225 miles on a Saturday with club members. It was fun. I've ridden further in a day but not on the Buddy.

[olhogrider]

Buy the Buddy. For most of your riding the Buddy will do just fine. As for highway use, it can use the highway when you need to, it is just not in its element. I bought my Buddy last year in Cleveland when there was a world wide shortage of them. I rode it home to San Francisco. I-80 all the way!

The Vespa is better for highway travel, but then so is a GoldWing or a Harley. I bought a Kawasaki 650 for the long runs. The Vespa got jealous and puked its fuel injection brain. It has been in the shop since early June.

With 9600 miles in just over a year, the Buddy has been near perfect. Someone else must have thought so too. Yesterday someone stole it.

[cmac]

I would not hesitate to ride my Buddy across the state. As a matter of fact... HEY PENSACOLA GUYS, WANNA RIDE TO TALLAHASSEE AND BACK ON A SATURDAY REAL SOON? Should be about 500 miles round trip. There's a hot dog stand over there on Capitol St. I've heard good things about. Sounds like a good enough reason for a road trip!

I will be down when I actually get my scooter. If only I didnt have to pay for so much (payments on laptop, new tires for my jeep, books for school, girlfriends birthday...the list goes on).

[peabody99]

Buy the Buddy. For most of your riding the Buddy will do just fine. As for highway use, it can use the highway when you need to, it is just not in its element. I bought my Buddy last year in Cleveland when there was a world wide shortage of them. I rode it home to San Francisco. I-80 all the way!

The Vespa is better for highway travel, but then so is a GoldWing or a Harley. I bought a Kawasaki 650 for the long runs. The Vespa got jealous and puked its fuel injection brain. It has been in the shop since early June.

With 9600 miles in just over a year, the Buddy has been near perfect. Someone else must have thought so too. Yesterday someone stole it.

1) I-80 on the Buddy? Holy cow! seriously?
2) stolen- that totally sucks to be down 2 scooters. I hope it is retrieved in perfect shape and/ or you get the vespa out of the shop asap

[olhogrider]

To make matters worse, I just shipped the Kaw seat out for rebuilding. Now I have to see if the '69 Beetle will start.

[pyrocpu]

OK. The Metropolitan has been sold!

After much deliberation, and of course taking all the advice rendered here, I've decided...

...to...

......go with......

... the Blackjack!

Peabody best put it as following the heart and not the mind. The 2004 Vespa GT200 is great, but I absolutely fell in love with the Blackjack. My dealer's gone ahead and ordered the Blackjack for me.

The dealer did bring up a good point though: do I want any accessories? I'm not too keen on the racks, the crashbars, etc. Windscreen, maybe, but not right now. Anything else worthwhile? I was thinking maybe a 95 main jet (ok, that's $5), Dr. Pulley sliders (which weight?), or perhaps these nifty brake levers (http://www.scooterworks.com/NCY_Folding ... _P5807.cfm) since I find the standard levers rather basic.

Anything else I might as well lump in right now? I think it'll be easier to slip past the household committee than if I get accessories item-by-item later...

[peabody99]

wooo hoo congrats. Heart generally rules with scoots. you want to walk out and see your baby every day and swoon as much as possibe.

As far as accesories, I think the rear rack is a must. I have a basket on my buddy rear rack, but the rack allows all kinds of possibilities. If you live where it is cold, a mid height windscreen for cold weather months is also a must IMO .

ride on!