Anger is just a word...

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:14 am

Went for a nice ride on a beautiful day today. Got my first ticket...

30 mph in a 15mph zone...

$125.00!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You'd think I was going 85mph. To say I'm angry doesn't even begin to describe it...

ScootStevie · Post by **ScootStevie** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:42 am

15 mph zone? Were you in an alley??

You crazy law breaker

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:48 am

I know huh? It's like the difference between crawling and walking. WTF! It's not like I was draggin' knee and scraping my kickstand.

I was riding through the Franklin Canyon Reservoir Park. Not another car around me. Just a zealous Park Ranger. It's not even a DMV ticket – it's a Parks Dept. ticket. Wouldn't be so bad if it was $35 or something. But $125??? Come on.

bigbropgo · Post by **bigbropgo** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:29 am

I am not familiar with a Parks ticket. What's the worst if you don't pay it? can you volunteer at the park and work it off or something? I'm just sayin.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:31 am

Skootz Kabootz wrote:I know huh? It's like the difference between crawling and walking. WTF! It's not like I was draggin' knee and scraping my kickstand.

I was riding through the Franklin Canyon Reservoir Park. Not another car around me. Just a zealous Park Ranger. It's not even a DMV ticket – it's a Parks Dept. ticket. Wouldn't be so bad if it was $35 or something. But $125??? Come on.

The parks dept can ticket you? I got a parking ticket once at a local college. I didn't know that the blue lot was faculty only.

I just laughed at it and told the 'officer' that they shouldn't expect that I'd pay it....

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:44 am

The ticket was issued by the "Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority". Whoever the $%$ they are. They have also installed a number of photo traps at stop signs in parks that break a number of state laws. They claim they are private property so can do it. Lawyers disagree. The Australian company that installed and operates the cameras gets between $20 and $40 for every ticket generated - that is directly contrary to California State Law. There are two specific sections of California State Law which appear to be violated by their actions:

California Vehicle Code Section 21455.6 states "The authorization in Section 21455.5 to use automated enforcement systems does not authorize the use of photo radar for speed enforcement purposes by any jurisdiction."

California Vehicle Code Section 21455.5 states "A contract between a governmental agency and a manufacturer or supplier of automated enforcement equipment may not include provision for the payment or compensation to the manufacturer or supplier based on the number of citations generated."

Amazing what you can learn on the internet...

iwabj · Post by **iwabj** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:47 am

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:08 am

Oooooh... this could get good....

"The MCRA is sure to face legal challenges when the illegal speed cameras go into operation. San Jose learned this lesson when they originally installed a series of speed cameras to generate additional revenue for city coffers. After a series of legal challenges in Santa Clara County Court, each time it ruled against the city which in turn eventually dropped the photo radar. Now the city faces the possibility of refunding millions of dollars for illegally collecting fines from unsuspecting motorists."

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:27 am

Where I live they started installing speed cameras. all over including the counties. So at any given time they may be clicking away. Makes life more interesting.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:43 am

Stormswift wrote:Where I live they started installing speed cameras. all over including the counties. So at any given time they may be clicking away. Makes life more interesting.

There are speed vans all over the place here. But the law requires a photo of BOTH plates and the driver's face for the fine to be valid. Good luck getting that on the scooter

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:51 am

OK, normally if you're doing double the speed limit and you're bitching about being ticketed, I'd be first in line to ****-slap you for being a tool. It sounds like this park place has not followed the rules and needs to be taken to court. 30 mph is pretty much nothing. If they have no real authority, there's really not much to worry about. If they have actual grounds for sending you a ticket, it still sounds like they're in the wrong from what you described of CA laws.

They should be cool with you as long as you don't set their parks on fire. Seems simple enough.

rsrider · Post by **rsrider** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:59 am

It's all about the revenue. The ticket citations, anywhere, have become a joke. For safety? Bullsh!t! A guy told me that the last traffic court he went to, there wasn't one fine that was less than $1,200!!!! and there were over 50 people there. Unreal......

laxer · Post by **laxer** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:12 am

I'm against excessive speed, but this is just like those little, middle-of-nowhere towns that highways drive through and they have one stop sign where the officer sits all day, ticketing anyone who doesn't make a DMV textbook stop at the sign.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:22 am

Check this out! Great info.

http://www.ticketassassin.com/

Anachronism · Post by **Anachronism** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:10 pm

Shrug.

In my cage, I just picked up a $175 ticket for 65 in a 50. Thought the speed limit was 65- turns out I wasn't outside the limits of some podunk town. The great part is that the court is a few hours away.

I pretty much expect any ticket to be $150+ these days.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:12 pm

Stormswift wrote:Where I live they started installing speed cameras. all over including the counties. So at any given time they may be clicking away. Makes life more interesting.

Yep, Ohio has the same thing happening.

One city near me has red light and speed cameras all over the place and the whole place is a nightmare to try to drive through. You also have to be REALLY careful to stay way behind the guy in front of you because people will slam on the brakes even if they are in the intersection as soon as the light turns yellow. They have shortened the length of the yellow lights to increase the number of tickets, also. And, it is the same thing, it is a partnership between the city government and the company that installs and operates the cameras as a money making scheme. I avoid the whole town, personally.

It is not a safety thing, it is simply an attempt to generate money from unsuspecting citizens. The number of rear-end accidents spikes as soon as these things are installed. That is not safety-especially for someone on two wheels.

-v

loodieboy · Post by **loodieboy** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:45 pm

Hey Vic, you wouldn't be talking about Middletown, would you? I got a ticket there courtesy of a camera. If it is any consolation, I am told that one of the first people to get a ticket after the cameras were installed was the city manager.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:02 pm

Am I understanding this right. You were in a Park that is posted for max 15 mph speed presumably due to many pedestrians, parked vehicles, people crossing the roadways unexpectedly at many places. You decided you wanted to double the posted speed and now you are pissed that you got a ticket? If you figure out a way to beat it - so be it. My advise is to not go 30 in a marked 15 mph area. (good to keep in mind that this wasn't a plot by park managers to harass scooters)

digital-entropy · Post by **digital-entropy** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:03 pm

Well, you were going twice the posted speed limit. When you decided to do that you must have made the decision that it was worth the risk. Was it? Maybe next time you will consider the safety of pedestrians, cyclists, and everyone else when traveling in an area that is designated for slower traffic.

(what, did you expect righteous indignation from everyone?)

bigbropgo · Post by **bigbropgo** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:16 pm

The original post sounded like more of a price issue. Tickets are no fun to pay, worse when it seems to be higher than the norm.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:06 pm

Dooglas wrote: My advice is to not go 30 in a marked 15 mph area.

...good advice. Inconvenience is probably not enough legal grounds to fight this.

--Keys

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:47 pm

Dooglas wrote:Am I understanding this right. You were in a Park that is posted for max 15 mph speed presumably due to many pedestrians, parked vehicles, people crossing the roadways unexpectedly at many places...

Not the case at all. I was on the drive exiting the park. I had already gone all the way through the park enjoying the view, not speeding at all as I avoided the numerous potholes and large amount of gravel in the roads from the recent rains.

Where I was there were no people, no traffic, no cross streets, no parked cars, nothing but me and my scooter blazing along at a whopping 25mph. I wasn't going 30. I was ticketed for going 30. You could have run and caught me.

Regardless, my point was that $125 is an outrageous amount of money to charge for both a victimless crime and one where the speeds are so miniscule they pose no danger to anyone.

The MRCA has been sued a number of times for their shady for profit tactics such as, at 2am when there was no one around for miles, automatically filming people who slightly roll a stop sign and mailing them $100 tickets (illegal in CA). It is lame anyway you slice it.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:52 pm

digital-entropy wrote:Well, you were going twice the posted speed limit. When you decided to do that you must have made the decision that it was worth the risk. Was it? Maybe next time you will consider the safety of pedestrians, cyclists, and everyone else when traveling in an area that is designated for slower traffic.

(what, did you expect righteous indignation from everyone?)

As I mentioned above, no pedestrians, no cars, no cross streets, no traffic, just me alone on my scooter. Safety is always considered.

(What, did you expect to be correct?

)

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:44 am

Lostmycage wrote:...for sending you a ticket...

The speeding tickets in AZ are in question because state law (as I have heard it - I have not researched it) states that violations must be delivered by an officer of the court, and the Postal Service is not that.

But honestly, you sped, you got caught, and by a living being. Sorry, Bud(dy), but you otta probably just bite the bullet.

slowhand · Post by **slowhand** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:56 pm

Think of it this way you just donated $125 to keep the park running properly and clean. I think the parks deserve what they can get.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:19 pm

Boy, I'm surprised some of you are so complacent about this stuff. I'm really glad the courts haven't agreed with you.

In my opinion, the appropriate action in this case, when one considers the total circumstance surrounding the event (which in truth is difficult to communicate in full here), the trivial speeds involved, the location, that the driver (moi) has a clean record and not a speeding ticket in over 20 years, would have been and should have been a warning.

broke · Post by **broke** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:38 pm

Kaos wrote: I got a parking ticket once at a local college. I didn't know that the blue lot was faculty only.

Thanks to my girlfriend (wife of 20 years now) using my car in college, I will never ever be able to graduate from Washington State University

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:51 pm

broke wrote:
Kaos wrote: I got a parking ticket once at a local college. I didn't know that the blue lot was faculty only.
Thanks to my girlfriend (wife of 20 years now) using my car in college, I will never ever be able to graduate from Washington State University

This was at Clark College in Vancouver

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:56 pm

Kaos wrote: ...faculty only.

[rant]
Lisalisa's one of those faculty.
I work part time at 2 different colleges. Always have just barely enough time to get from one ridiculously low paying job to another. So I need that parking space and don't have time to ride all over campus looking for a spot so I can then walk carrying 30 pounds of books, computer and assignments. But the the students have clogged up the faculty lot. So I call the U-cops.

OK I get to class after riding around for 15 minutes- 15 minutes that I really needed to drop stuff off in my office and talk to a student, and wrap my head around the third different lecture of the day. And then, oh yeah, in my evaluations, they say I am often late for class or don't seem composed when I begin class. And unlike the tenured faculty, the departments actually use those evaluations to decide whether to hire me back next semester, and at what salary.

Why are the tickets so expensive in college lots? Because 30 bucks doesn't matter to these students whose parents pay for everything. They get the tickets and keep parking in the lot- the same cars all the time. Can you tell I'm so sick of it? And because of fire regulations, scooters and motorcycles can't park on the sidewalks. I have a tag that I pay for out of my measly salary that says I get to park behind my building. Except...
[/rant]
Heh semester's over.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:10 am

LisaLisa wrote:
Kaos wrote: ...faculty only.
[rant]
Lisalisa's one of those faculty.
I work part time at 2 different colleges. Always have just barely enough time to get from one ridiculously low paying job to another. So I need that parking space and don't have time to ride all over campus looking for a spot so I can then walk carrying 30 pounds of books, computer and assignments. But the the students have clogged up the faculty lot. So I call the U-cops.

OK I get to class after riding around for 15 minutes- 15 minutes that I really needed to drop stuff off in my office and talk to a student, and wrap my head around the third different lecture of the day. And then, oh yeah, in my evaluations, they say I am often late for class or don't seem composed when I begin class. And unlike the tenured faculty, the departments actually use those evaluations to decide whether to hire me back next semester, and at what salary.

Why are the tickets so expensive in college lots? Because 30 bucks doesn't matter to these students whose parents pay for everything. They get the tickets and keep parking in the lot- the same cars all the time. Can you tell I'm so sick of it? And because of fire regulations, scooters and motorcycles can't park on the sidewalks. I have a tag that I pay for out of my measly salary that says I get to park behind my building. Except...
[/rant]
Heh semester's over.

I agree with you totally. What I'm saying is that the lot was not MARKED as faculty only. Its apparently something you're told as a student. but I wasn't a student. It would have been nice for there to have been a sign stating, "Hey this is for our fantastically hard working faculty, please repect!"

I wouldn't have parked there at all if I had any idea that it was for that.... And it was a $75 ticket.... Infact I would have likely PAID it if there were some chance that I might have known I was parking where they didn't want me to.

iwabj · Post by **iwabj** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:43 am

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:05 am

Heh Kaos,
Sorry you had to get my end of semester rant

But you know we're all on the edge by December

Yeah, unmarked is just plain wrong.
And 75 bucks is horrible for a visitor.
And the worst thing about it? If at the time you could have gone to protest the ticket to the Ucops looking like a 40 year old suit wearing professional ("...trying to visit Professor X about a possible collaboration..." They would have reversed the ticket without a thought. But then, looking mid twenties etc? No chance.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:13 pm

I was talking about Heath, Ohio. It is all over the place, though. Some places are getting rid of them, some not so lucky. http://www.cantonredlightcameras.com/he ... ht-camera/

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:55 pm

Ouch, man. That is a lot of money.

A couple months ago, I took a right turn onto what I now know is a downtown Portland street with three lanes: one for buses, one for private vehicles, one for local commuter trains. I was trying to get my bearings as it was new to me and to keep a safe distance from a van that was moving to take a turn when a transit cop pulled me over as I was in the train lane (for all of maybe 10 seconds).

If I hadn't had a perfectly clean driving/riding record, it would have been a $250 ticket. I got off with traffic court at $30. Afterwards, I watched many other drivers getting nailed in downtown Portland. It is a nice revenue maker for the city government.

City and local governments nationwide are now going out of their way to find numerous ways to raise revenue. I think it is only going to get worse.

digital-entropy · Post by **digital-entropy** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:35 pm

Portland_Rider wrote:If I hadn't had a perfectly clean driving/riding record, it would have been a $250 ticket. I got off with traffic court at $30. Afterwards, I watched many other drivers getting nailed in downtown Portland. It is a nice revenue maker for the city government.

City and local governments nationwide are now going out of their way to find numerous ways to raise revenue. I think it is only going to get worse.

Or, perhaps they have a transit first policy and transit-only lanes really only work when cars stay out of them, whether you're in them for 10 seconds or your entire commute. It is really pathetic that most people here seem to think traffic laws exist only as a way for the city to get money from them.

We have bus/taxi only lanes in SF, they aren't enforced at all and any bus routes that need to use them run at a crawl.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:30 pm

digital-entropy wrote:... It is really pathetic that most people here seem to think traffic laws exist only as a way for the city to get money from them...

Laws are fine. It is how the fines are handed out that is inappropriate. In this case, once again a warning would have been appropriate. Only 10 seconds in the transit lane, so obviously an error that was corrected immediately; no big deal. A friendly reminder with a "have a nice day" is all that was needed. Make a note of the event in the drivers record and let them know that if they do it again there will be a ticket issued.

Maintain the peace, not the poverty level.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:11 pm

Skootz,

Sorry to hear about the ticket, man. I've heard about Parks going after people, especially in Griffith Park.

Thing is, even if you were targeted, they tagged you going 15mph over, right? What's the basis for fighting that?

Not that I'm not sympathetic on some level (yes, I speed as well), but there are speed limit signs throughout the park with many signs saying it's radar enforced. They have cameras and remotes at some of the stop signs, too. There's no ambiguity about the speed limit through the park.

You can't get out of this via online traffic school? It's a joke but beats paying a ticket and taking a point on your license.

Last ticket I got was in my cage, coming around a descending curve. (Locals: Where Cahuenga turns into Highland.) I roared past the sign that says "Speed Limit Enforced by Radar" because I always thought it was BS, haul ass around that curve at 50-60 on my scooter all the time, other cars speed through there, and I'd never seen a cop with a gun on the few sidestreets.

Well, now I have. Damn. Live and learn! I readily admit I got caught and deserved the ticket because I violated the posted speed limit.

pimaCanyon · Post by **pimaCanyon** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:28 pm

unfortunately we could be in for a lot more of this crap in lots of places, not just the small towns. Tucson seems to be one of those places. They have cameras now at lots of intersections, some of which are big, wide intersections that take a while to drive through. Speed limit at many of the intersections is 45, some are 40. If the light turns yellow just as you approach the intersection, you can slam on the brakes, possibly skid to a stop, or continue thru the intersection at speed and watch the light turn red just before you clear the intersection. Photo tickets are $125 and up.

City, county, and state governments are hurting due to poor fiscal planning. (As in, even the most cursory overview of economic history shows that without exception every boom time is followed by a bust, so what were our competent leaders doing during the last boom time when they should have been saving money for the inevitable bust that was sure to follow? How about spending every last dime--no wait, how about spending way beyond every last dime, like floating bond issues and going into debt...) They are all short of revenue, so they are looking for "creative" ways to make up the shortfall. The solution seems obvious to me: put all government workers on 3/4 time (or 2/3's or whatever is necessary), cut salary and benefits proportionately in order to bring expenses in line with revenue. Somehow that is too obvious, most corporations aren't doing that (although I read that BMW did that a few months ago) and I suspect most local governments won't either. So we can all look forward to more creative attempts by our local governments to make up for the revenue "shortfall".

brape · Post by **brape** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:23 pm

Going twice the posted speed limit you're lucky to get off for less then $200.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:25 am

pimaCanyon wrote:<snip> The solution seems obvious to me: put all government workers on 3/4 time (or 2/3's or whatever is necessary), cut salary and benefits proportionately in order to bring expenses in line with revenue. <snip>.

Sigh... yes, cut the government workers so that nothing gets done and so that those same government workers now don't have money to spend at local establishments; seems a classic case of cutting off the nose despite the face. And many government workers have taken cuts all over the country. As I type this, I am on a furlough day. Yeah, I'm one of those expendables....

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:04 am

In my area they have cameras all over the place. To add insult to injury they definitely shortened yellow light duration. I think they do have to have 2 pictures showing you going through the first and through the second red light. I will absolutely not slam on the breaks with other cars behind me even when I am in a car. I do not want to get rear ended and have a permanent neck injury.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:31 am

Hokay, guys please try to steer this away from politics please.

digital-entropy · Post by **digital-entropy** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:49 am

Skootz Kabootz wrote:
digital-entropy wrote:... It is really pathetic that most people here seem to think traffic laws exist only as a way for the city to get money from them...
Laws are fine. It is how the fines are handed out that is inappropriate. In this case, once again a warning would have been appropriate. Only 10 seconds in the transit lane, so obviously an error that was corrected immediately; no big deal. A friendly reminder with a "have a nice day" is all that was needed. Make a note of the event in the drivers record and let them know that if they do it again there will be a ticket issued.

Maintain the peace, not the poverty level.

That's if you believe him when he said 10 seconds. I really doubt it was only 10 seconds -- our perception of time and memory is far from accurate. And regardless of that, $30 seems like a reasonable reduction. If only warnings were given out no one would follow the law.

This thread is getting complainy (I had a less polite word here, but thought better of it -- use your imagination).

pimaCanyon wrote: City, county, and state governments are hurting due to poor fiscal planning. (As in, even the most cursory overview of economic history shows that without exception every boom time is followed by a bust, so what were our competent leaders doing during the last boom time when they should have been saving money for the inevitable bust that was sure to follow?

1. State/city governments cannot deficit spend (which is good/bad, depending on your viewpoint), unlike the Federal government. This makes recessions doubly hard on those municipalities.

2. Again, these municipalities are dependent on revenue from voters. Many areas have laws that require any excess revenue (that is generated beyond what the approved budget is) be rebated to the voters. Obviously this makes it somewhat difficult to save if you are legally barred from doing so.

3. Lastly, in many areas voters continually lower/repeal various forms of taxation as to make it difficult to adequately fund city services. People love to hold onto their precious money and then gripe when the city doesn't have funding for much needed services.

Someone call the wahhmbulance.

enzomatic · Post by **enzomatic** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:49 am

sorry to hear about this skootz, if you wanted to fight this i would look into speed trap laws, I'm not sure if these would apply to private roads but it's a start. I would also write down exactly what happened, describe in detail the road conditions, traffic, any construction, pedestrians or cyclists and the weather. go and take pictures of where this happened, then request to see the last time they sampled the average speed of drivers on that road. If you go to court and try to go through all of this trouble and can tell the judge isn't having it, say "I would like to change my plea to guilty but I would like to ask your honor if i could take traffic school or if my fine could be reduced because of XYZ factors." Personally i would just pay full price and do the traffic school and save myself the trouble, if it was 5-10mph over you would have a better chance.

hillbillybear · Post by **hillbillybear** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:42 am

I read quite a bit about bicycing. In many towns, especially those towns where bicycling is a part of life, the law says one foot down is a complete stop. Thats stupid. Whether the rider is on a Buddy or a Cannondale, stopped is just that. Stopped. I've seen kids on BMX bikes that can sit still for 30 seconds with no forward motion and no foot down. Many motorcycles, especially those with a very low center of gravity can come to a complete stop without touching. As well, cops swear they don't have a quota. Why do we see more of them out later in the month? One would think we have no more crank or meth cookers lurking in our neighborhoods since the cops are out running radar so often.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:42 am

enzomatic wrote:sorry to hear about this skootz, if you wanted to fight this i would look into speed trap laws, I'm not sure if these would apply to private roads but it's a start. I would also write down exactly what happened, describe in detail the road conditions, traffic, any construction, pedestrians or cyclists and the weather. go and take pictures of where this happened, then request to see the last time they sampled the average speed of drivers on that road. If you go to court and try to go through all of this trouble and can tell the judge isn't having it, say "I would like to change my plea to guilty but I would like to ask your honor if i could take traffic school or if my fine could be reduced because of XYZ factors." Personally i would just pay full price and do the traffic school and save myself the trouble, if it was 5-10mph over you would have a better chance.

Hey Enzo. (When ya moving to LA?) In the case of my ticket, it was handed out by the "Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority" (whoever they are), so for me, there is no DMV or license points or traffic school involved. Not even a real judge.

As for fighting it, I have a couple of different holes in their allegations that I will explore now that I've given it some thought. The first being that on the road I was on, there really is no straight stretch of road long enough for the park Ranger to have followed me for enough time to accurately determine my speed. The road is very twisty with a number of 180º turns. I want to know specifically where he accurately tracked me at the alleged 30mph, when for most of the road he could not even see me. I'm going to take a ride back there (slooooowly) and check it out for more details.

What I think probably happened is that with the road being so twisty, a scooter can easily maintain its speed in those turns better than the jumbo SUV the ranger was driving. A scooter also accelerates faster. My guess is this gave the ranger the impression I was going faster than I actually was. And if in the turns he was in fact getting slower, while I was simply maintaining my speed, he would have had to accelerate to catch me, thus his false speed estimate.

Also, I will ask for documentation showing when the speedometer in the Rangers vehicle was last calibrated. Since this whole thing is all based on his speedo, lets see if it is even calibrated and accurate. No documentation, case dismissed. But however it turns out, there are no points involved for me, just money. And me being miffed because in my opinion, given my driving record and that it was a victimless allegation, a warning would have been the appropriate action.

digital-entropy wrote:...If only warnings were given out no one would follow the law...

Of course, no one has suggested that only warnings be given out. But certainly they should be where appropriate, such as (IMO) the cases cited above.

pimaCanyon · Post by **pimaCanyon** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:31 pm

pdxrita wrote:
pimaCanyon wrote:<snip> The solution seems obvious to me: put all government workers on 3/4 time (or 2/3's or whatever is necessary), cut salary and benefits proportionately in order to bring expenses in line with revenue. <snip>.
Sigh... yes, cut the government workers so that nothing gets done and so that those same government workers now don't have money to spend at local establishments; seems a classic case of cutting off the nose despite the face. And many government workers have taken cuts all over the country. As I type this, I am on a furlough day. Yeah, I'm one of those expendables....

Okay, maybe my post was a bit self-centered. The thing is I wish my company would do this. I would welcome a 4 day work week and take a 20 percent cut in pay/benefits in return. Or even a 3 day work week. If our company needs to cut head count by 20 percent, this seems preferable than adding another several hundred employees to the unemployment lines. We are experiencing a global economic slowdown that make take years to recover from. Seems like cutting everyone's hours and pay would be preferable to having some folks working longer hours and other folks not working at all.

Sorry if my post started a political discussion. I didn't intend it to be political, but I guess it was a rant of sorts, like I still can't believe that so few CEO's won't consider something like this when faced with the task of how to cut expenses.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:10 pm

I could be wrong, but I think that corporations favor layoffs over cutbacks because of benefit costs. Typically, health insurance and other bennies cover you 24/7/365, and that's part of how the cost to you and the company is determined. So, cutting you back by one day a week only saves one day's salary, but has no effect on the bennies since they can't pro-rate the coverages.

Yeah, it sucks. I've been through 3 rounds of layoffs since the summer, and we now have about 8 folks doing the work of 50. No raises, 401(K) match eliminated, etc. But it's good to know that the CEO and the rest of the board got raises AND bonuses.

Gotta love management by stock price.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:19 pm

pimaCanyon wrote:Okay, maybe my post was a bit self-centered. The thing is I wish my company would do this. I would welcome a 4 day work week and take a 20 percent cut in pay/benefits in return. Or even a 3 day work week.

This would be my ideal. I don't really need the pay of a full-time job (e.g. I ride a scooter, not a Hawg or an SUV; I'm single with no kids), and I'd rather have the time for myself or some more interesting on-the-side work rather than the extra cash. For a while I had a half-time job that paid just enough to get by while I spent my savings going back to college half-time. But because it was a "part-time job" I was the first person laid off (ahead of two people with less time on the job) when money got tight. Later I had a 32-hour/week job that turned out to be a full-time job (i.e. I rarely worked less than 40 hours), just without benefits. I think a shorter workweek would help solve some of the problems of post-industrial society, but there's huge cultural opposition to it in the US.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:23 pm

pimaCanyon wrote: The thing is I wish my company would do this. I would welcome a 4 day work week and take a 20 percent cut in pay/benefits in return. Or even a 3 day work week. If our company needs to cut head count by 20 percent, this seems preferable than adding another several hundred employees to the unemployment lines.

It's cool, pima (may I call you pima?

). I just get tired of constantly seeing calls for cutting back government employment, as if there aren't real live people who have real needs and provide real services behind those cutbacks. I agree with you 100% about preferring to see reductions in work hours over layoffs. When we went through contract negotiations, I was completely in support of doing furloughs vs. layoffs. But it still is painful to my bottom line. Peace. We now return you to your safe, non-political discussion. Scooters!

Modern Buddy

Anger is just a word...

Anger is just a word...

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