Engine Life

[Southerner]

I've read hereon about people taking long trips on their scoots, and of course, if it's a daily driver, the miles are bound to pile up.

My question: How long can a small displacement single cylinder air-cooled engine be expected to last?

I assume as a baseline that it will receive good, but maybe not obsessive, maintenance, will get regular oil changes, etc.

How long before it needs major repair, not just replacement of consumable items like CVT belts?

How long before it craps out entirely?

And is an engine overhaul worthwhile or would you just scrap it and buy another scoot?

[Syd]

Here's a couple threads that discuss that topic:
viewtopic.php?t=5311
viewtopic.php?t=20506

[Southerner]

Oh good. Thanks. From time to time I see mentions that long runs at high speed are bad for air-cooled engines. I wonder if this is just a peculiarity of the enclosed, fan-cooled engines on scooters. I've never heard anything comparable about MC engines. But of course, their heads are finned and right in the breeze.

[bluebuddygirl]

There are a lot of air cooled motorcycles (and none of these or scooters have fans of any sort) that can suffer mostly from stop and go traffic since the air is not blowing over the engine. Scooters are the same. The difficulty with a small engine and big trips (which almost no one would do on a 125 motorcycle- simply not very comfortable) is that you are running the engine at its highest speed, i.e. its hottest temp, so it does need to rest every now and then. The buddy times out almost perfectly though, as it needs gas about every 100 miles or so, so if you just stretch your legs when you stop you can practically ride all day.

I have a 250 one cylinder motorcycle and on long trips, I like to let it cool off every now and again as well, but since the engine is more exposed, and the engine is just a little bigger I do feel like I need to do that less than the scoot.

(If I am wrong about the lack of fan on the scooter, someone feel free to let me know)

[PeteH]

Only a little bit wrong. Bud doesn't have a traditional fan that sucks air across a radiator, but the engine cowling does indeed have a fan - it sucks air in on the right hand side (that round black box), circulates it inside the engine shrouding, then exhausts it down below.

In fact, it's a good idea to check now and then to make sure no garbage bags, leaves, etc. have been sucked in and are blocking that fan intake.

[bluebuddygirl]

Thanks Pete

[ericalm]

My question: How long can a small displacement single cylinder air-cooled engine be expected to last?

I assume as a baseline that it will receive good, but maybe not obsessive, maintenance, will get regular oil changes, etc.

How long before it needs major repair, not just replacement of consumable items like CVT belts?

How long before it craps out entirely?

Honestly, when it comes to the Buddy, we just don't know what those limits are yet. There are Buddys out there with over 40K and probably some close to or past 50K. Pretty damn good for scoots that have been around since '06. You'd have to spend a hell of a lot of time riding to put 10K/year on a 125cc/150cc scooter. I ride all the damn time, ride for fun on weekends and have done some pretty long rides and only have 30K since late '05. (Uh, there have been several months of being scooterless for various reasons.)

The Buddys that have died due to mechanical issues haven't done so due to old age or wear on the engine. It's usually a maintenance or parts related issue; something due to outside factors. Because they've only been around for 5 years and have 2-year warranties, most that die due to intrinsic flaws are fixed or replaced under warranty. (Pretty rare, though.)

Sad to say, some get crashed before their time, too.

And is an engine overhaul worthwhile or would you just scrap it and buy another scoot?

No pat answer for this one. Depends on what happened to the engine. A top end rebuild isn't as devastating as bending a crankshaft, which will probably mean a new engine or scoot. There are a fair number of salvages out there (see above) that you could get a used engine from. In the end, that might be cheaper than an overhaul.

On the cooling issue, I'd recommend letting a (carbureted) Buddy engine cool every 100 miles or so—roughly every gas fill up—on long trips with a lot of WOT riding.

[Southerner]

That sounds like it wouldn't be a problem for the most part. I know that back when I was a kid, we ran 2-stroke & 4-stroke air-cooled dirt bikes in all sorts of conditions and they probably weren't getting the best care. It never seemed to make much difference. But this was just kids riding afternoons and weekends, probably not really piling up that many miles.

I think there may be a misconception about air-cooled engines in general. I don't think it's necessary for them to have much rapid air flow, just exposure. I cite as examples the huge amount of lawn equipment with low-compression air-cooled engines, which seldom move over a few mph. Likewise, ATVs, at least the smaller ones, are usually air-cooled and probably spend the majority of their running time at 30 mph or below. Finally, there was once a brand of tractor, named Deutz, I think, that had an air-cooled diesel engine and tractors almost never move fast, plus the engine often not only supplies motive power but runs other things like bushhogs, balers, etc.

[mattgordon]

Saw this (Bonegirl's) Buddy 125 at Genuine's HQ in Chicago last week when I was there...surprising at how good a condition it is in, 40,000+ miles.

I also know others with 50k, 60K+ on their Vespas.

I'm convinced that riding habits and styles, and maintenance behavior is the biggest determining factor to longevity and extreme longevity of any machine (the human body too )

Of course keeping a well engineered, well-built product like the Buddy running is easier than keeping a lesser product on the road....but they all require maintenance and if followed will reward the owner with less grief over more miles and years.

BTW-My visit to GSC and Scooterworks Chicago was great. what a place!

[pugbuddy]

I recently had my engine replaced after 18k. I ride hard (60+ bmph for 6-8 hours a day) for about a week straight across country once a year. Otherwise, it's mainly in town riding (40-50 bmph avg) with daily 30 minute "hard" romps on the expressways.

[ericalm]

BTW-My visit to GSC and Scooterworks Chicago was great. what a place!

Aw, I'm jealous! Guess I'll get to go there this summer before Amerivespa.

[mattgordon]

BTW-My visit to GSC and Scooterworks Chicago was great. what a place!

Aw, I'm jealous! Guess I'll get to go there this summer before Amerivespa.

3.7 miles from my sister's house. BUT...had to drive through 7 states to get there, including a VERY icy Wyoming. Yikes!

one more....

[Syd]

From the looks of it a very nicely redone Figaro too. Impressive. I've always really liked small cars.

[ericalm]

From the looks of it a very nicely redone Figaro too. Impressive. I've always really liked small cars.

Someone with access to the Genuine warehouse loves them and has several. They occasionally pop up in the backgrounds of their videos.

[Roose Hurro]

From the looks of it a very nicely redone Figaro too. Impressive. I've always really liked small cars.

Same here. I'd love to have one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nissan_Pao_001.JPG ... but, unfortunately, America never gets the neat little import cars like this.

[teabow1]

From the looks of it a very nicely redone Figaro too. Impressive. I've always really liked small cars.

Same here. I'd love to have one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nissan_Pao_001.JPG ... but, unfortunately, America never gets the neat little import cars like this.

Indeed. When I was in Japan, I was amazed at how many small cars there were produced by Nissan, Toyota, Daihatsu and many other well-known Japanese companies that do see in the U.S. But, they don't import those small cars.

[Roose Hurro]

From the looks of it a very nicely redone Figaro too. Impressive. I've always really liked small cars.

Same here. I'd love to have one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nissan_Pao_001.JPG ... but, unfortunately, America never gets the neat little import cars like this.

Indeed. When I was in Japan, I was amazed at how many small cars there were produced by Nissan, Toyota, Daihatsu and many other well-known Japanese companies that do see in the U.S. But, they don't import those small cars.

I wish they did. The best small import I owned was a 1985 Honda CRX... loved that car. Perfect for my needs. Two seats, plenty of cargo room (you could carry a wheelchair under the hatch, easy), highly maneuverable, very easy on gas. My Little Rollerskate...

Oh, if you like anime (and even if you've never heard of it), this series has some neat little vehicles in it that were never available in The States.

[neotrotsky]

BTW-My visit to GSC and Scooterworks Chicago was great. what a place!

Aw, I'm jealous! Guess I'll get to go there this summer before Amerivespa.

Me and my friend are planning on riding to Chicago to visit them after Amerivespa. The plan is to pick up replacement parts for whatever broke on the way to Wisconsin in order to be fresh for the ride back to Phoenix. Hopefully during the winter break we'll be able to set forth a solid plan and dates so we can know when we're hitting Scooterworks.

[ericalm]

I heard a great interview recently with a car writer talking about how Honda has declined in the US. Like many companies, they became known for a few central things (small, reliable, efficient cars) but over time their products have lost quality and reliability and have become much larger and less fuel efficient (relative to the rest of the cars out there and how much more efficient they were years ago).

[ericalm]

BTW-My visit to GSC and Scooterworks Chicago was great. what a place!

Aw, I'm jealous! Guess I'll get to go there this summer before Amerivespa.

Me and my friend are planning on riding to Chicago to visit them after Amerivespa. The plan is to pick up replacement parts for whatever broke on the way to Wisconsin in order to be fresh for the ride back to Phoenix. Hopefully during the winter break we'll be able to set forth a solid plan and dates so we can know when we're hitting Scooterworks.

I'm hoping we may be able to have an all-Genuine ride from GSC/Scooterworks to Lake Geneva before AV.

[neotrotsky]

Aw, I'm jealous! Guess I'll get to go there this summer before Amerivespa.

Me and my friend are planning on riding to Chicago to visit them after Amerivespa. The plan is to pick up replacement parts for whatever broke on the way to Wisconsin in order to be fresh for the ride back to Phoenix. Hopefully during the winter break we'll be able to set forth a solid plan and dates so we can know when we're hitting Scooterworks.

I'm hoping we may be able to have an all-Genuine ride from GSC/Scooterworks to Lake Geneva before AV.

Well, since I'm already planning to take the P200e to the big show and not the Stella (yes, it's 90% mine... almost. Financial glitches and the fact the Vespa still isn't passing emissions is keeping me from getting it home at the moment) it looks like we'll just meet you guys in Wisconsin in order to not upset the Genuine vibe Besides, not interested in backtracking from Chicago to Wisconsin when we get there. I'm sure after nearly 1900 miles we'll be beat and need at least a day to recover before doing any group rides.

It DOES sound like an awesome event to get on video!

Granted, the pilgrimage to Scooterworks would be alot more casual if it weren't also a re-supply mission for the scoots. Unless, that is, we happen to find anyone with a trailer returning to the West coast via Phoenix we could hitch a return trip to