Sprung a Leak!

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:54 am

So I went on the longest single ride with my blackjack today (18.2mi) through Las Virgenes Canyon to meet up with some friends for a morning hike. After buying a couple sandwiches before the hike at a Subway, I came out to see steam and sizzles coming off my scooter. There was gas leaking all over my exhaust pipe!!!

I grabbed a cup to contain the gas, while we tried to figure out what we should do. The LDPE cup eventually dissolved and we had to find more cups. Eventually I had a friend go on cup duty while I called AAA. Luckily my AAA Gold subscription had ended at the end of the year but I called anyway. They said that even if the membership was current I hadn't gotten the moped/motorcycle piece so it wouldn't have done anything and since I bought the membership in NorCal they would have to transfer me over there. I reminded the person that time was not a luxury and she then turned me over to the fire dept.

A fire truck arrives (unfortunately without the pomp and circumstance of sirens much to the chagrin of my friends) and they pull out the tool box (I lacked a wrench! Not part of the standard tool kit wth). The leak was coming from nut that connects the valve to the bottom of the tank. As he 'tightened' the nut more gas came out. They determined that there must be a crack at the thread or something and that the tank needed to be emptied. Going to subway to ask for cups they offered only small cups to me even though it was an emergency. This prompted the fireman to go inside and ask for something larger, he still came out upset that they wouldn't give him more. We captured the gas transfered it to a buddies gas tank and I had my brother come with a UHaul to grab the bike.

Upon working on the bike I realized it was possible the fireman didn't do a reverse "righty-tighty" on the upside down nut which could have caused the increased leaking he noticed and attributed to a cracked seal, as the gasket inside the valve looks fine. Do you think I'm right or the fireman? (not knocking the fireman they were awesome)

I will be testing it tomorrow to be sure just wondering if anyone has seen the nut get loose before. Also I will be adding an small adjustable wrench to the tool kit! Would have really helped today :/

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:23 am

Hmmm, could be...though I have no experience with the issue you mention. Post an update when you find the issue for sure.

Sounds like they were very nice and tried their best to help you.

I'm glad it didn't happen to you while you were out in the middle of nowhere!

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:59 pm

Was the gas pouring out in a strong stream or dripping? Had you by chance just filled it up? Because it is normal on a Buddy for an over filled gas tank to drip gas on the right side of the scooter, right near the exhaust. Pretty crazy. I remember the first time it happened to me I was freaked. As soon as you ride a while and the gas level goes down it stops. Any chance that's what was happening?

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:00 pm

I had a buddy's buddy do the EXACT same thing after a ride... It was loose. We drained the gas. Figuring a bad gasket. The gasket was fine, we screwed it back on. Its been fine for over 1,000 miles now . NO LEAKS.

There is a good chance thats all it was. And yes, VERY possible he turned it the wrong way, the petcock being "upside-down" and all. Try it and there is a good chance you will be fine. Just don't OVER tighten it. That little bung going in the tank doesn't look too strong

.

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:09 pm

+1 to what Skootz said. If you had just filled up, this isn't unusual and is, in fact, by design. You exhaust does not reach a high enough temp to ignite the gas. Overflow, drip on the exhaust and instantly evaporates

Howard

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:58 pm

Howardr wrote: You exhaust does not reach a high enough temp to ignite the gas. Overflow, drip on the exhaust and instantly evaporates

Howard

^^^ I will second that. Gas dripping isn't the safest thing, BUT the exhaust WILL NOT ignite it. Just to ease your mind a bit. Just no cigarettes

And yes, it can be the overflow set-up they are speaking of. But it sounded like yours was coming out right around the petcock. That could have been a loose one. As I said, seen it before.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:13 am

I won't address everything cause I'm on my phone but I did retighten the valve and retested but there was no improvement. Took it to the dealer and they said the $8 valve was bad as was the $80 gas tank! The guy said someone over torqued the nut and messed up the welds on the tank which I never saw happen between me and the fireman. Either way along with a new back tire they want $320 to fix the thing. I think that is too much considering the thing shouldn't have gone bad in the first place. I'm thinking of going to Genuine directly with this. What do y'all think?

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:38 am

heyitsomid wrote:I won't address everything cause I'm on my phone but I did retighten the valve and retested but there was no improvement. Took it to the dealer and they said the $8 valve was bad as was the $80 gas tank! The guy said someone over torqued the nut and messed up the welds on the tank which I never saw happen between me and the fireman. Either way along with a new back tire they want $320 to fix the thing. I think that is too much considering the thing shouldn't have gone bad in the first place. I'm thinking of going to Genuine directly with this. What do y'all think?

Are you still under warranty? Has anyone, anywhere touched the tank or the nut during any other service or repair you've had?

If you're not under warranty, it's kind of moot. You're going to have to pay. You may be able to find a used tank, but I doubt it'll take much off the cost due to labor.

If you are under warranty, it may be hard to make your case. The determination of whether something is a warranty claim is usually up to the dealer. They're the ones who provide warranty service and file the claim with Genuine. Their assessment is what Genuine bases its decisions on, as they have nothing else to go on.

At this point, there's almost no way of knowing whether the issue was due to a manufacturing defect. All anyone knows is that it was leaking, which can happen if the nut is loose, and that in the course of trying to fix it, the problem got worse.

Unless you have some basis for the cause being a part failure or manufacturing defect, you may just have to take this one out of pocket.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:09 am

My bet is for the fireman, though trying to be helpful. Overtightened the nut and twisted the bung in the tank. I saw the tank "flexing" when I tightened Charlies down. There isn't a lot of metal there.

I've never taken a tank out of one, but I'll bet its an hour job or more.

New tank , bung, rear tire change 320? doesn't sound too terrible...I know you aren't happy about it, but I think I agree with Eric on this one.

And maybe, because I worked in the motorcycle biz with its 700-900 dollar gas tanks it just doesn't seem so bad to me.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:53 am

So I went into the shop today to check out the parts. They determined that the problem wasn't with the valve but just with the tank itself. That the weld at the spigot failed and caused the leak. In other words it didn't have to do with over torquing because the leak occurred before anyone touched the nut. This irked me because the weld shouldn't be that shoddy. I asked the dealer to contact the manufacturer and plead the case that this part shouldn't have gone bad to begin with. He did and hopefully they agree and help reduce the sticker shock a little. I'll keep you guys posted.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:24 am

Sounds like a straight forward warrantee repair to me.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:17 am

heyitsomid wrote:So I went into the shop today to check out the parts. They determined that the problem wasn't with the valve but just with the tank itself. That the weld at the spigot failed and caused the leak. In other words it didn't have to do with over torquing because the leak occurred before anyone touched the nut. This irked me because the weld shouldn't be that shoddy. I asked the dealer to contact the manufacturer and plead the case that this part shouldn't have gone bad to begin with. He did and hopefully they agree and help reduce the sticker shock a little. I'll keep you guys posted.

That's a pretty good outcome.

Are you still under warranty?

jonlink · Post by **jonlink** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:34 am

As long as you are under warranty it seems like this is the best case scenario. I'm also interested in hearing how this turns out.

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:41 am

nope. he/she's the 3rd owner (or so I gather from the original post) so no warranty.

Doesn't seem like it should have busted yet you just don't know what happened to that bike prior to owning it.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:15 am

I am not on warranty and wouldn't be even if I was the original owner as its an '09. The bikes been cared for properly and parked inside only. I believe that the bikes normal vibration probably caused the bum weld to start leaking. The reason I think this is because the leak occurred after a long ride through the canyons. It's kinda like bending a paperclip, you bend it back and forth enough and it'll snap.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:48 am

How're your wrenching skills?

Pages 94-95 of the Service Manual have some instructions on removing the tank. They're pretty rudimentary, but it doesn't look that bad.

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:00 am

heyitsomid wrote:I am not on warranty and wouldn't be even if I was the original owner as its an '09. The bikes been cared for properly and parked inside only. I believe that the bikes normal vibration probably caused the bum weld to start leaking. The reason I think this is because the leak occurred after a long ride through the canyons. It's kinda like bending a paperclip, you bend it back and forth enough and it'll snap.

is your original post a typo? you wrote "longest ride 18.2 miles"

I can't imagine normal would cause this sort of fail so either a defective tank or not normal use along the way.

seems like the fix is easy enough either way so that's good!

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:01 am

If I'd known from the beginning it was the tank that was the source of the leak I totally would have. I thought it was the valve and what would've been a relatively quick, cheap and easy fix. Plus I needed a rear tire and thats one DIY I hate doing, totally worth the money to get that done. If Genuine doesn't want to chip in for this I might be doing end up doing it myself. Its all still up in the air. Thanks for the reference Eric.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:16 am

There is person parting out a St. Tropez in the for sale section. Same gas tank etc as the BJ. You might get a good deal.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:11 am

So I got the scoot back but I haven't updated yet…

I got my old gas tank back and I'm still not convinced there is anything wrong with it but I still haven't tested it to be certain.

One thing that is now messed up is the brakes. I noticed vibrations coming from the front wheel at high speeds. Upon inspection today there is no space between the pads and rotor. Is there an easy way to adjust this? I don't want to take it into the dealer if I don't have to.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:14 am

I took the scoot to the dealer yesterday and they said that there isn't a gap between the brakes and rotor. They figured the vibration came from low tire pressure. they filled it up and sure enough the scoot felt better but on the way back there was slight harmonic sound coming at 62 bmph. Much less than before though.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:56 am

So I thought I'd update this thread concerning my latest predicament. I went into the garage Monday and it smelled of gasoline, take a look at the valve and sure enough there was a small fuel leak onto the fender. I took it to the local dealer, Route 66 in Marina del Rey, where I had the gas tank and the valve replaced in January. They were shocked and baffled that it was leaking again and after trying a new valve it was determined that it was the gas tank again that was leaking. They replaced the tank and valve under warranty this time, so nothing out of my pocket thankfully and they did it while I was there which was convenient. Anyway I'm hoping it doesn't happen again but if it does I won't be too surprised. That joint seems to be pretty thin and as my engineering classes have taught me, if you stress a metal enough it will snap, kind of like bending a paper clip back and forth. I think the normal vibration of the motor is causing this stress and compromising the tank. What do y'all think? I do remember a physics professor saying the study of vibrations through bridges would fill volumes...

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:39 pm

I dunno. Plenty of us have a lot miles without this problem.
I have almost 30K on mine and it vibrates like summabitch since I have the aftermarket CDI, race clutch and bell and wring the heck out of my motor.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:25 pm

Your tank isn't plastic though is it? I thought the California tanks were the only metal ones due to emission controls.

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:42 pm

California tanks are metal?

Another reason that state is messed up...

SYMbionic Duo · Post by **SYMbionic Duo** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:45 pm

same thing happened to me. the weld failed on the down spout of the tank. in my case it was due to a car backing into my bike.

i just took the tank off, sanded the area around the downspout a little, and JB welded it. (liquid, not putty)

it's doing just fine. but that weld is pretty weak, so be careful.

-duo

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:51 pm

heyitsomid wrote:Your tank isn't plastic though is it? I thought the California tanks were the only metal ones due to emission controls.

Not true! Depends on the year/model of your Buddy. All the 150s after 2008 (IIRC) have metal tanks. Can't recall if the 125s came with metal, too after a certain point.

Regardless, all those of the same year/model will have the same tank no matter what state you're in.

JettaKnight wrote:California tanks are metal?

Another reason that state is messed up...

I know! I almost left the state because of this, but then discovered the metal tanks were being used in all 50 states.

Mousenut · Post by **Mousenut** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:07 pm

ericalm wrote: I know! I almost left the state because of this, but then discovered the metal tanks were being used in all 50 states.

Uh, hello, Mexico maybe? You are going to be labled a quitter!

zuki · Post by **zuki** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:39 am

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-Genuine-Bu ... 07&vxp=mtr

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:29 am

heyitsomid wrote:
Your tank isn't plastic though is it? I thought the California tanks were the only metal ones due to emission controls.

Not true! Depends on the year/model of your Buddy. All the 150s after 2008 (IIRC) have metal tanks. Can't recall if the 125s came with metal, too after a certain point.

Regardless, all those of the same year/model will have the same tank no matter what state you're in.

I stand corrected...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-Genuine-Bu ... 07&vxp=mtr

If it fails again outside my warranty I will definitely be buying this as a replacement. Although Eric do you know if that would fit the 2009 blackjack?

same thing happened to me. the weld failed on the down spout of the tank. in my case it was due to a car backing into my bike.

i just took the tank off, sanded the area around the downspout a little, and JB welded it. (liquid, not putty)

it's doing just fine. but that weld is pretty weak, so be careful.

I was going to do a JB weld job on the original but didn't know if that was the problem, took it to the dealer and it got stuck there. I now keep JB weld on me just in case it happens really badly again.