Engine Oil? Add Boric Acid WTF?

[JHScoot]

'sup

So I am surfing some scoot sites I haven't been to for awhile this weekend and I come across this from a well known China scoot site

http://scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cg ... read=46136

Holy cow, just add a tablespoon of BA and a little water to your oil at the next change and bam, you've gotta super scoot!

Or do you? Anybody ever here of this? Care to read a little of that thread and make heads or tails of it? I am not "in the know" of such things but it sure sounds weird. And just a bit intriguing

[easy]

i used to lurk on that site a bit but in the last 6 months its gone bad there

[Southerner]

I don't know what they're talking about but I WOULD NOT DO IT.

[jprestonian]

Oil and water don't mix. Duh.

Sort of like how reactionary right-wing commentary and I don't mix, which is why I stopped reading that site three years ago.
.

[SSCAM]

There's a link in that thread to a government laboratory which has some super brainy chemistry jargon that seems to support nano-boric acid making oil "more slippery" (<a href="http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/ES070803.html" target="_blank">http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/20 ... 03.html</a>).

I guess I'm just not that smart. The little bit that I know about metal parts rubbing together makes me think that adding water and a gritty substance to your engine lubricant is an extremely bad idea. Add to that my geographical area facing sub-freezing temperatures and some simple physics explaining that water converts to a solid below a certain point, you can probably figure out why I wouldn't even consider this. I can't help but feel like oil out of a bottle off of the shelf will do just fine. I didn't read the entire ScootDawg thread, but the paranoid part of me can't help but suspect some clever trolling.

[Raiderfn311]

If I had a scoot I could "test" this with I would, but not with my Buddy!

[Lotrat]

That's a funny thread.
#1 Oil already has boron in it.
#2 Water boils at room temperature when in a vacuum. Add ice and it will "dance" without melting.

While adding anything to oil may yield some desirable instant results, long term may not be so positive. Almost every additive has been shown to be snake oil. Almost every manufacturer of these products has been sued by the Government and lost. Change your oil regularly and you'll be fine.

[charlie55]

I jumped outta there a couple of months ago after getting into it with that doofus who's the main proponent of this snake oil. The guy posts incoherent crap all over the place, is insulting and demeaning to others, and comes off as a borderline head case. Yet, for some reason the mods over there protect his ass. Probably a relative. You know, sorta like that half-wit second cousin your Mom made you drag along if you wanted to go to the movies.

[2wheelNsanity]

I don't believe any gain would be worth the risk of ruining a $3,400 scooter. I figure if I want a faster scooter I'll just buy a bigger one , tee hee, like the Piaggio BV350 .

[Lokky]

Don't you just love how people throw the prefix 'nano' in front of words to try and sound like they know what they are talking about?
'nano boronic acid' just about made my day

[jmazza]

At least it will keep cockroaches out of your motor...

[ericalm]

Don't you just love how people throw the prefix 'nano' in front of words to try and sound like they know what they are talking about?
'nano boronic acid' just about made my day

It's become the lazy writers' shortcut in movies and TV. Uh, something science-y we don't want to bother trying to explain… Nanomachines! Nanotech! Nanostuff! No one will question it! w

[Southerner]

I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic but NOT one labelled as fuel conserving because those will cause the clutch to slip.

I think there are things one can do that will safely increase performance up to a certain limit. If you must go beyond it, it's better to just get a more powerful machine.

You can't expect to turn a small scoot into a pocket Hayabusa. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

[charlie55]

You can't expect to turn a small scoot into a pocket Hayabusa.

And you can't expect to turn a "Handsome Flying Golden Llama Turbo Dumpling" into a Genuine.

Judging from some of the posts over there, I'm sorta wondering if all of the magical white powder's going into the crankcase.

[easy]

they had maybe still do have a good thread on setting up a scooter out of the crate wouldnt trust nothing there now

[ericalm]

I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic

Dino for the break-in, synthetic forever after.

[viney266]

It always cracks me up when people try to engineer their own oil... A if someone in their garage can find some secret hidden ingredient that oil engineers blending oil ( you know the guys with the doctoral degrees in chemical engineering? ) don't know about or can't afford to research.

Yeah, okay...suuuure

[neotrotsky]

Don't you just love how people throw the prefix 'nano' in front of words to try and sound like they know what they are talking about?
'nano boronic acid' just about made my day

It's become the lazy writers' shortcut in movies and TV. Uh, something science-y we don't want to bother trying to explain… Nanomachines! Nanotech! Nanostuff! No one will question it! w

Better than Cyber, Bionic, Atomic and my favorite: "Virtual"

[JHScoot]

I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic

Dino for the break-in, synthetic forever after.

yeah pretty sure it was / is this one http://x1scooters.com/pdi.html

I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic

Dino for the break-in, synthetic forever after.

how about Rotella T dino? have read good things about it. not being cheap i want to use the best stuff and will. but some claim that is the best stuff. been using it since the new engine went in

i should also say i don't want to make this into some silly synthetic vs dino oil
discussion but want an opinion or two on Rotella T, period. because some say its "special"

and i think Rotella also comes in some sort of "quasi" synthetic? that POC Phil guy said he uses that in all his scoots, i think? in his big oil guide

[ericalm]

Rotella's fine.

Honestly, I think people sweat brand of oil far more than necessary or sensible. I use what I use because they stock it at the shop, it's what the mechanics use and I've never had any kind of an "oil problem."

Use the right weight and don't buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Pep Boys. I think it'll be okay.

[JHScoot]

thanks. see my edited post b4 yours popped up

you move fast

[BuddyRaton]

I use synthetic after break in. In my opinion the best thing to do is find a good quality oil, dyno or synth, and stick with it. Don't keep changing brands and grades.

[iMoses]

You know, sorta like that half-wit second cousin your Mom made you drag along if you wanted to go to the movies.

Is that why I "went" to the movies a lot as a kid??!??

[viney266]

Rotella's fine.

Honestly, I think people sweat brand of oil far more than necessary or sensible. I use what I use because they stock it at the shop, it's what the mechanics use and I've never had any kind of an "oil problem."

Use the right weight and don't buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Pep Boys. I think it'll be okay.

^^^ well said

Buy something decent and change it when it needs to be.

[agrogod]

Seems that there are many right ups all over the net about the effects of boric acid as an oil additive to help increase the lubricity of oils. This isn't something new and the science behind it seems to be getting better.

[desmolicious]

Don't you just love how people throw the prefix 'nano' in front of words to try and sound like they know what they are talking about?
'nano boronic acid' just about made my day

It's become the lazy writers' shortcut in movies and TV. Uh, something science-y we don't want to bother trying to explain… Nanomachines! Nanotech! Nanostuff! No one will question it! w

I blame Mork from the planet Ork

[jprestonian]

Seems that there are many right ups all over the net about the effects of boric acid as an oil additive to help increase the lubricity of oils. This isn't something new and the science behind it seems to be getting better.

There are many "right ups all over the net" about how the moon landings were faked, too.
.

[Southerner]

Rotella's fine.

Honestly, I think people sweat brand of oil far more than necessary or sensible. I use what I use because they stock it at the shop, it's what the mechanics use and I've never had any kind of an "oil problem."

Use the right weight and don't buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Pep Boys. I think it'll be okay.

^^^ well said

Buy something decent and change it when it needs to be.

I agree.

You'd be surprised how many "oil threads" become flamers even on normally civil MC forums.

[PeterC]

People who buy Chinese scooters will probably buy anything.

[Tom]

I can't help but notice that in the very legit link (Argonne National Laboratories) they are NOT saying that folks should just dump a bit into their vehicles at home. I think there is probably something to it, but let folks make the product and spend their own money testing it first, for hecks sake.

[Lostmycage]

Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.

[izark47]

I am not adding anything except what Geniune recommends. I suspect that would be a quick way to void the warranty.

[Tom]

Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.

I wouldn't claim to know anything about it, Chemistry is my major but I'm barely beginning. I will say though that the lab in the link is a legit scientific institution, and those who take reports of (legit) studies and decide to run with them in the garage- not so much.

I would guess (guess mind you) that if they experimented with it awhile back that there probably have been some changes made to oils as a result of them that may include using acids. It's not like we would read it on the label, these formulas are probably patented and secret. For all we know those studies may have contributed to the creation of what we call synthetic oils. (The studies you refer to, not the one currently being mentioned.)

It's similar to someone reading a study about wine being related to lower heart disease rates and then deciding that they are going to drink lots and lots of wine (well I do that anyway!). People don't generally have much sense of what exactly some studies are suggesting and jump to conclusions. If the National Laboratories were ready to suggest we add chicken blood to our engines, I'm sure the article they write on it would be much more explicit than to say, "We are experimenting with chicken blood in motor oil and seeing some promising results". I'm not ready to be an un-compensated guinea pig- especially under my own direction with no data and feedback to the lab. After all they'll likely blow up a lot of motors in that lab, before they know how best to do this.

The "nano" bit I read a little differently than some of you. According to the source that the 'believers' are citing, that's a requirement (!) or the stuff just settles out to the bottom in a matter of weeks. Yeah, that is grit in the motor at that point, and no benefit. So that part leads me to think they've already ruled out adding commercially available boric acid as a positive thing! As if I didn't have enough reason already to avoid experimenting with this. (Reason number still being, I need my scooter to work, and am unqualified for that sort of experiment.)

[viney266]

Seems that there are many right ups all over the net about the effects of boric acid as an oil additive to help increase the lubricity of oils. This isn't something new and the science behind it seems to be getting better.

^^^ Not to pick, but science can't "get better"..it just is.

I repeat...Do we REALLY think we can find some MIRACLE in a barn that will improve our oil that oil engineers can't find, blend in, or don't know about??? REALLY???

[charlie55]

Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.

I wouldn't claim to know anything about it, Chemistry is my major but I'm barely beginning. I will say though that the lab in the link is a legit scientific institution, and those who take reports of (legit) studies and decide to run with them in the garage- not so much.

I would guess (guess mind you) that if they experimented with it awhile back that there probably have been some changes made to oils as a result of them that may include using acids. It's not like we would read it on the label, these formulas are probably patented and secret. For all we know those studies may have contributed to the creation of what we call synthetic oils. (The studies you refer to, not the one currently being mentioned.)

It's similar to someone reading a study about wine being related to lower heart disease rates and then deciding that they are going to drink lots and lots of wine (well I do that anyway!). People don't generally have much sense of what exactly some studies are suggesting and jump to conclusions. If the National Laboratories were ready to suggest we add chicken blood to our engines, I'm sure the article they write on it would be much more explicit than to say, "We are experimenting with chicken blood in motor oil and seeing some promising results". I'm not ready to be an un-compensated guinea pig- especially under my own direction with no data and feedback to the lab. After all they'll likely blow up a lot of motors in that lab, before they know how best to do this.

The "nano" bit I read a little differently than some of you. According to the source that the 'believers' are citing, that's a requirement (!) or the stuff just settles out to the bottom in a matter of weeks. Yeah, that is grit in the motor at that point, and no benefit. So that part leads me to think they've already ruled out adding commercially available boric acid as a positive thing! As if I didn't have enough reason already to avoid experimenting with this. (Reason number still being, I need my scooter to work, and am unqualified for that sort of experiment.)

I think LMC meant this kind of acid:

[HowHH]

Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.

Yes, people did experiment. Although the well-known Dr. Leary vociferously edorsed acid as a performance enhancing substance and there were many anectodal reports in line with Dr Leary's endorsement, there was never any objective evidence to support those claims.

[Raiderfn311]

Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.

Yes, people did experiment. Although the well-known Dr. Leary vociferously edorsed acid as a performance enhancing substance and there were many anectodal reports in line with Dr Leary's endorsement, there was never any objective evidence to support those claims.

Well I wouldnt call acid performance enhancing, but I would say my experiences certianly helped tear down some walls that were a part of my psyche. Ahhhhhh....to be young.

[heyitsomid]

I worked as a lubricant researcher for a large oil company and I recently left to go back to school. I signed a non-disclosure agreement so I can't give too many details except that I did some experiments with borated compounds and sure as hell its pretty darn slippery. Boric Acid meanwhile isn't a strong acid and you're engine oil already contains CaCO3 detergents that absorb any free acids formed from combustion and decomposition of oil (ONE of the reasons you change your oil is to replace this base as it gets quenched).

All this being said I wouldn't put that stuff in my engine because you don't know what unintended consequences adding a foreign chemical would have on random parts it wasn't designed for. Just because it reduces friction between the piston head and cyclinder doesn't mean it won't mess with your seals or etch other random metals from the engine. Best to leave it to my former coworkers to figure all that out and put it in the new GF5 or coming standards.

[photowiz]

I put 1000 miles on my scooter before I started using BA in my oil. I used BA iol for 3000 miles. My last oil change was regular oil. My performance dropped, It doesn't shift as easily. I have a CVT with 2 sets of weights. The heaver weights kick in at around 7000 rpm and the engine drops 1000 to 1500 rpm. It goes from 7000 rpm @ 40 MPH to 5500 rpm at 50 MPH.
Here is how I mix the oil.
From what I've been reading only Humco Boric Acid Powder NF. It is the finest powder. Most posts say to shake 2 teaspoons into 750ml of oil, WRONG. This just puts the BA in suspension which will fall out when you stop shaking
I use Castrol Tection Extra SAE 15W-40. This is a great heavy duty oil that will stand up to the heat.
Using a kitchen blender, start the blender, add the BA and 1 teaspoon of water. Keep the blender going until the oil gets to a temperature of 200° F. I use a long stem BBQ thermometer in the oil while I'm blending. Once it gets to 200° F, turn the blender off and let the oil cool. At this point it looks like the original oil, and not milky as it would shaken. The BA is now combined with the oil.
Once it's cool, pour it back into an empty oil bottle and label "BA-200". I'm getting ready to make a couple more batches..

I had a quart sitting for a month with no settling of BA.

[Syd]

I read online somewhere that a good source of H3BO3 is urine. I think I'm going to start peeing in neo's Rattler.

[Capt_Don]

I use unicorn pooh harvested from the fossilized remains of the Happy Magic Rainbow region of the Golden Forrest, just north of Mordor. It's a little dry, but only befor I add a teaspoon of olive oil and some moring dew.

[JHScoot]

I put 1000 miles on my scooter before I started using BA in my oil. I used BA iol for 3000 miles. My last oil change was regular oil. My performance dropped, It doesn't shift as easily. I have a CVT with 2 sets of weights. The heaver weights kick in at around 7000 rpm and the engine drops 1000 to 1500 rpm. It goes from 7000 rpm @ 40 MPH to 5500 rpm at 50 MPH.
Here is how I mix the oil.
From what I've been reading only Humco Boric Acid Powder NF. It is the finest powder. Most posts say to shake 2 teaspoons into 750ml of oil, WRONG. This just puts the BA in suspension which will fall out when you stop shaking
I use Castrol Tection Extra SAE 15W-40. This is a great heavy duty oil that will stand up to the heat.
Using a kitchen blender, start the blender, add the BA and 1 teaspoon of water. Keep the blender going until the oil gets to a temperature of 200° F. I use a long stem BBQ thermometer in the oil while I'm blending. Once it gets to 200° F, turn the blender off and let the oil cool. At this point it looks like the original oil, and not milky as it would shaken. The BA is now combined with the oil.
Once it's cool, pour it back into an empty oil bottle and label "BA-200". I'm getting ready to make a couple more batches..

I had a quart sitting for a month with no settling of BA.

I think i would try a little experiment if i had a scooter to experiment on. I do not and will not use my daily transpo. It just seems a thing that works out for some and not others. And again, their is a very big "if it ain't broke" factor here. As in if regular oil sans boric acid ain't broke, why fix it? It works well as is.

If a company wants to blend it, fine. But I am going to leave KitchenAid out of it for now. So far as oil itself I too am using Castrol Tection Extra 15w-40 in my Agility. I used Shell Rotella T before that. From what I have read this "heavy duty" diesel oil is just as good as anything in wear prevention and keeping things clean and sludge free. So at $12 a gallon, yeah. Change every 2k, max interval imo.

[Dooglas]

...and i think Rotella also comes in some sort of "quasi" synthetic? that POC Phil guy said he uses that in all his scoots, i think? in his big oil guide

Shell Rotella T6 is a full synthetic (at least by the US definition) and is readily available in 5W-40. A good choice in my opinion. (and no, I don't add boric acid, Ben-Gay, or powdered garlic to my oil )

http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/products/t6/

[mhardgrove]

Considering that oil companies have many SCIENTISTS working in LABS, I would figure they know best and package their oils accordingly. I would never put boron powder and water into an engine. If a person wants a super scooter, pay for quality upgrades. Simple as that

[Capt_Don]

Considering that oil companies have many SCIENTISTS working in LABS, I would figure they know best and package their oils accordingly. I would never put boron powder and water into an engine. If a person wants a super scooter, pay for quality upgrades. Simple as that

Do these "scientist" use kitchen blenders? Because if they don't I don't think I'd trust them.

[scootavaran]

I use unicorn pooh harvested from the fossilized remains of the Happy Magic Rainbow region of the Golden Forrest, just north of Mordor. It's a little dry, but only befor I add a teaspoon of olive oil and some moring dew.

Olive oil! thats why my unicorn crapcycle never works. duh..

[Wheelz]

Unicorn crapcycle....priceless

[BlueMark]

You guys are so mean. If I had a discount Chinese scooter, I'd try the boric acid powder in the oil, I mean why not? And maybe some bromo-seltzer too - to get a good cylinder head foam going.

In college I had a 1972 Ford Falcon with the legendary mighty Ford 302 V8 engine (still around as the 5.0 liter V8 ). The car was crap, but with a bit of Rislone and Slick50 added to the oil the engine ran like a champ - I could outrun any of my pals in a straight line drag, just as long as there was absolutely no handling required. The effects were probably all imaginary, but it seemed like it got the engine all silky and powerful. I'm sure STP is just as good and a lot more affordable. I don't see why you shouldn't use a good commercial oil additive. It may not help, but it is not likely to hurt - and a much better idea than 'roll your own' oil.

But again, if you are actually riding on a cheap Chinese death trap scooter, what's the harm? If boric acid (or Teflon, or Zinc, or oatmeal) works, great! If it doesn't and you can't ride the darn thing anymore? Even better, your life-span has just been extended.

[k1dude]

I installed a flux capacitor in my Buddy this weekend and it runs great!!! I visited my great-grandfather in 1911!

[Capt_Don]

I installed a flux capacitor in my Buddy this weekend and it runs great!!! I visited my great-grandfather in 1911!

How steep a hill you go down to get that scooter to 88mph?