Realistic maintenance schedule for DIY'ers.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:32 am

A bunch of Buddy owners live too far from a dealer for regular maintenance. Others prefer to do the work themselves either due to cost or trust issues. So it occured to me there's no real written guidelines out there as far as when to do maintenance.

We all know with regular dealer maintenance, they check all that stuff for us at proper intervals. But realistically, most owners run their scooters into the ground (other than oil/filter changes). Only when a problem arises do they ask for help or go to a dealer.

That being the reality, I thought it might be a good thing to have in one place when certain items need to be replaced. Tires are obvious since they are readily seen with the naked eye. But a ballpark lifetime for tires before they need replacing would be something like 5,000 to 8,000 miles. Idle is obvious because you'll feel and hear when it's not correct. But what about the other stuff that's out of sight and out of mind?

So why not put together a list of what and when something needs to be replaced - so we don't break down 50 miles from home because we didn't know to check or replace something. At least the list will be in one place for quick reference.

Feel free to add, subtract, or modify anything. All generally accepted recommendations will be added.

Maintenance list:

1. Oil change: 1st at 500 miles. Use dino oil. 2nd at 2,000 miles. Use dino oil. Switch to synthetic at the 3rd oil change if you prefer. All further oil changes should be every 1,500 miles if you're using dino oil or every 2,000 miles if you're using synthetic. Use 5W-40.

2. Oil filter: Change filter every oil change. Use hex-head filters over slotted-head filters for ease of changing.

3. Gear oil change: 1st at 500 miles using dino gear oil. 2nd at 2,000 miles using dino gear oil. From then on, change gear oil every other oil filter change - dino or synthetic, your choice. Use 75W-140.

4. Air filter: Blow out with air compressor every 2,000 miles and re-oil. Replace filter every 8,000 miles.

5. Valve clearance: Check every 4,000 miles and re-gap to .08mm if necessary.

6. Fuel filter:

7. Spark plug: Change at 10,000 miles. Use an NGK C7HSA with a 6mm to 7mm gap.

8. Rollers: 8,000 miles. Dr. Pulley sliders and NCY rollers are popular.

9. Drive "V" belt: Change at 8,000 miles. Kevlar belts aren't recommended.

10. Drum brake shoes: 8,000 miles or when less than 2mm of pad thickness remains.

11. Disc brake pads: 8,000 miles or when less than 2mm of pad thickness remains.

12. Battery: 4 to 5 years.

13. Stator:

14. CDI:

15. Starter motor:

16. Front brake disc: Replace disc when less than 3.1mm thick.

17. Brake fluid: Replace every 3 or 4 years.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:37 am

Very helpful thread

Can i just say 4,000 miles for valves is a bit frequent for the DIY'er? At least a novice such as i. But I think it might be ok to go.....longer.

Some might also say 3,000 mile oil changes using synthetic. Also, I have read of many going 10,000 miles before touching anything in the CVT. And even if not, could not the rollers be checked / replaced 1,000 miles later at 8,000 with the belt? Or the belt checked / replaced at 7,000 with the rollers? Just seems 1000 miles more riding isn't enough to justify going through the CVT again so soon

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:08 am

JHScoot wrote:Very helpful thread

Can i just say 4,000 miles for valves is a bit frequent for the DIY'er? At least a novice such as i. But I think it might be ok to go.....longer.

Some might also say 3,000 mile oil changes using synthetic. Also, I have read of many going 10,000 miles before touching anything in the CVT. And even if not, could not the rollers be checked / replaced 1,000 miles later at 8,000 with the belt? Or the belt checked / replaced at 7,000 with the rollers? Just seems 1000 miles more riding isn't enough to justify going through the CVT again so soon

All good points. If someone can verify or there seems to be a concensus, I'll make the changes.

I made up many of the numbers. It was just a starting point to make corrections as needed.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:40 am

Here's the Buddy Maintenance Schedule in the MB FAQ's and Guides Section — General Maintenance, since it should accompany this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=151886#151886

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:34 am

Skootz Kabootz wrote:Here's the Buddy Maintenance Schedule in the MB FAQ's and Guides Section — General Maintenance, since it should accompany this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=151886#151886

The reason I don't like that chart is it isn't realistic for the average owner. It basically states to check EVERYTHING every 3 months or 2,000 miles. Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.

uklemond · Post by **uklemond** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:41 pm

k1dude wrote:
Skootz Kabootz wrote:Here's the Buddy Maintenance Schedule in the MB FAQ's and Guides Section — General Maintenance, since it should accompany this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=151886#151886
The reason I don't like that chart is it isn't realistic for the average owner. It basically states to check EVERYTHING every 3 months or 2,000 miles. Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.

My dealer has told me that im to come in every 1000 miles, but the advice on my scoot is 1800 ish miles translated from 3000km according to the sticker on the steering column. That said im not sure what they are going to do on the 1k mark, maybe just an oil change maybe more.

I would also love to see a manual or video on how to perform services myself on a Buddy 170i to accompany the list. It is one thing knowing what needs to be done, it is a whole new ball game knowing how to actually do it though.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:54 pm

k1dude wrote:
Skootz Kabootz wrote:Here's the Buddy Maintenance Schedule in the MB FAQ's and Guides Section — General Maintenance, since it should accompany this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=151886#151886
The reason I don't like that chart is it isn't realistic for the average owner. It basically states to check EVERYTHING every 3 months or 2,000 miles. Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.

Well yeah....you should check almost everything every 2K miles. You would be amazed at how many bolts require retorquing, there is a lot of vibration from that little motor!...also don't forget to replace brake fluid every few years.

There is DIY basic maintence and DIY maintenance. If you just want to do the basic stuff...that's fine...just don't be surprised when one of the unrealistic items like a loose wheel bearing bites ya in the butt!

It seams like alot and yeah it will take awhile the first couple of times...but then you get through it all pretty quick.

For each scooter I have a I keep a laminated check list with items, torque values etc. Go down the list, check them off with a dry erase marker, when done wipe it off and use for the next time.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:55 pm

Our local dealer says service should be done every 2k miles, though he's said with good oils it can go longer, he just likes to be safe and probably make money

I have no clue about rollers and belt, but if they're 1k miles apart, I'd just do them at the same time @ 7 or 8k?

Scalpel · Post by **Scalpel** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:43 pm

I can testify that the belt is something to think about replacing more often than every 10,000 miles... The picture below was at about 8,000+ miles, and it was definitely caused by a worn out belt.

The Rattler explodes by scalpel3000, on Flickr

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:19 pm

Thanks for that visual Scalpel. I'll leave the belt change at 8,000 miles.

BuddyRaton, I've always had to dig around to find the torque values for whatever I'm working on. So it would be awesome to have them all in one place in a list like you described. Would it be too much to ask if you could post the list in your own thread? I'm sure it would find itself moved to the tech library fast. I know I personally would greatly appreciate it for my own wrenching.

And BTW, I guess I got lucky with my Buddy. Not once has any fastener come loose. In fact, they all seem to be overtorqued. I can't believe the amount of pressure I need to use to loosen them.

As far as brake fluid is concerned, how does it go bad? In my experience, I've never changed it in any car or bike I've ever owned unless the brakes started to get spongy (indicating air). Then I bleed or replace entirely. It's one of those obvious problems that gradually present themselves. So I've never been that concerned about it. Are you sure it needs to be completely replaced every few years?

iamstuffed · Post by **iamstuffed** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:09 pm

k1dude wrote: As far as brake fluid is concerned, how does it go bad? In my experience, I've never changed it in any car or bike I've ever owned unless the brakes started to get spongy (indicating air). Then I bleed or replace entirely. It's one of those obvious problems that gradually present themselves. So I've never been that concerned about it. Are you sure it needs to be completely replaced every few years?

Brake fluid is considered hygroscopic, i.e., it absorbs water from the atmosphere. When water is introduced into the brake fluid, it lowers the boiling temperature. When you brake, the brakes get hot, and the fluid gets hot. You can imagine why you would not want the boiling temperature of the brake fluid to be lower than it should be.

You should always replace the brake fluid at the time interval specified.

Two useful links from a quick google search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid
http://workhorse.com/Portals/0/Why%20Ch ... %20wip.pdf

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:05 am

iamstuffed wrote:Brake fluid is considered hygroscopic, i.e., it absorbs water from the atmosphere. When water is introduced into the brake fluid, it lowers the boiling temperature. When you brake, the brakes get hot, and the fluid gets hot. You can imagine why you would not want the boiling temperature of the brake fluid to be lower than it should be.

You should always replace the brake fluid at the time interval specified.

Interesting. Auto companies like GM and Chrysler claim their brake fluid is lifetime fluid and does not need to be replaced. That sounds more like my experience with brake fluid.

But, Ford claims you should change the brake fluid every 3 years or 36,000 miles. That's assuming the national average of 12,000 miles per year. Most scooter owners won't put on that kind of mileage in their lifetime of owning the scooter. So I guess I'll add in the 3 year number just to play it safe.

I still wonder if companies like Ford and BMW claim a 2 or 3 year replacement just to line the pockets of the service centers and brake fluid manufacturers. There's obviously a discrepancy within the industry. It reminds me of the 3,000 mile oil/filter change recommendation that the whole auto industry adopted to line the pockets of the dealer's service departments and the oil industry. I remember prior to that (in the old days) we used to use a 7,500 to 10,000 mile ballpark timeframe.

It wasn't until the lid was blown off by several knowledgeable sources that 7,500 mile intervals began showing up again in literature and service manuals.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:18 am

Hi K1Dude

Yes my "10,000" mile thing was sort of a "as far as you might want to go" comment. I think 8,000 is more prudent. It's also when my Agility calls for CVT service, but many on the Kymco board have said they have gotten 10,000+. However when finally checked, yes....rollers and belt show wear, if not worn out. Better safe then sorry imo.

Buddy I figure is similar if not the same. I remember a guy posting pics of his first "big" service on his Buddy and he took it in at 10,000 miles. So he did not DIY, and he paid I believe over $450+ for belt, rollers, "tune up," filters, brake stuff, all those things. So it is sort of a "pay now or later" thing. But if one "big" service can get it done at one time it may be convenient for some.

For the true DIY'er, though? Like you said it might be a challenge as to when to "check and change." One thing I know for sure is the "scheduled" maintenance for these scooters (and autos, it would seem) is too frequent. In some instances, far too frequent depending on the item. So yeah, "real world" experiences to be found in this thread can be very helpful

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:34 am

* Here is the thread i was referring to. I was WAY off on the cost. $210. But as you can see that was just an early estimate. I think he posted elsewhere it cost more. I think...

Whatever the case as you can see his Buddy was good with pretty much nothing done up to 10,000 miles. Oil changes, i would assume. But nothing more is mentioned.

topic17682.html

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:04 am

k1dude wrote:
BuddyRaton, I've always had to dig around to find the torque values for whatever I'm working on. So it would be awesome to have them all in one place in a list like you described. Would it be too much to ask if you could post the list in your own thread? I'm sure it would find itself moved to the tech library fast. I know I personally would greatly appreciate it for my own wrenching.

And BTW, I guess I got lucky with my Buddy. Not once has any fastener come loose. In fact, they all seem to be overtorqued. I can't believe the amount of pressure I need to use to loosen them.

I would be happy too however I will be away from the shop for a few more months.

I'm just wondering why you loosened bolts when checking torque? To check or retorque all you need to do is set your torque wrench and and make sure you hit the spec.

What probably happened is that a thread locker like locktite, which is basically thread glue, was used.

Loctite doesn't increase the torque value...but it does increase the frictional forces on the threads needed to loosen the bolt...that's the reason to use it. A drop of blue...torque the bolt...let the loctite set...and the chances of the bolt vibrating loose is greatly reduced.

If it was me I would go back to each bolt loosened, remove it, hit it with a drop of loctite, reinstall and torque to spec.

Loctite is your friend...just be sure to use the right one!..

Blue for bolts that you may want to remove in the future...think of it as Elmer's glue

Red for bolts that are never going to be removed...like super glue

Green for carbs - petroleum resistant.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:21 am

BuddyRaton wrote:I would be happy too however I will be away from the shop for a few more months.

I'm just wondering why you loosened bolts when checking torque? To check or retorque all you need to do is set your torque wrench and and make sure you hit the spec.

What probably happened is that a thread locker like locktite, which is basically thread glue, was used.

Loctite doesn't increase the torque value...but it does increase the frictional forces on the threads needed to loosen the bolt...that's the reason to use it. A drop of blue...torque the bolt...let the loctite set...and the chances of the bolt vibrating loose is greatly reduced.

If it was me I would go back to each bolt loosened, remove it, hit it with a drop of loctite, reinstall and torque to spec.

Loctite is your friend...just be sure to use the right one!..

Blue for bolts that you may want to remove in the future...think of it as Elmer's glue

Red for bolts that are never going to be removed...like super glue

Green for carbs - petroleum resistant.

I don't loosen them. I remove them completely when I'm doing maintenance. Like this week, I removed both wheels to have new tires mounted. That's a lot of bolts. And of all of them, only one had any loctite. It was blue loctite on the bottom brake caliper #10 bolt. And yes, usually when I'm pulling stuff apart I'm suprised how tight the fasteners are. I haven't measured, but I suspect they're all overtorqued.

When I was putting it all back together, I know damn well I wasn't torquing to the same values as when I disassembled. It was far less. That's a bit unnerving. But I stuck to spec anyway. I didn't add any loctite (other than the one caliper bolt), but I'll be keeping an eye on those fasteners. If they start to back out, I'll hit them with loctite.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:19 am

I think i will tackle the cvt myself when the time comes. And i do the oil, air filter, and could probably do the fuel filter and clean / adjust a carb. Change out the spark plug, check valves. But wheel bearings, bleeding brakes, diagnostics are most likely beyond me.

Is it difficult for the novice to take wheels on and off? Reassemble the brakes, etc? It sounds somewhat intimidating

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:26 am

JHScoot wrote:I think i will tackle the cvt myself when the time comes. And i do the oil, air filter, and could probably do the fuel filter and clean / adjust a carb. Change out the spark plug, check valves. But wheel bearings, bleeding brakes, diagnostics are most likely beyond me.

Is it difficult for the novice to take wheels on and off? Reassemble the brakes, etc? It sounds somewhat intimidating

Everything is intimidating for the novice. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Really rear wheel removal is about a 10 min job....after you have done it a few times.

Find a local scooter group or club and you will find people willing to help and teach. A couple of beers or a pizza go a long way!

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:20 pm

Yeah the LASG (LA Scooter Group) had a workshop recently. Limited to 12 people in a group with a nearly 800 member ridership.

Maybe I'll get lucky and will be part of the next 12!

No but seriously I do need to meet more riders to observe and learn. Only been riding a couple years and 10,000 miles, though. So gimme time!

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:09 pm

I would loved to learn to change oil and filter myself. Sometimes geting to the shop is a big production .
I am not sure from all thereads and pictorials which of the 2 filters is easiest to take off and install. I also do not have the torque wrench and I am affraid I would either over tighten or unrertighten and mess op my bike

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:27 pm

Stormswift wrote:I would loved to learn to change oil and filter myself. Sometimes geting to the shop is a big production .
I am not sure from all thereads and pictorials which of the 2 filters is easiest to take off and install. I also do not have the torque wrench and I am affraid I would either over tighten or unrertighten and mess op my bike

Use the filter with the hex-head, not the one with the slotted head.

IMHO, DO NOT use the torque spec the manual provides for the oil filter. It's WAY too high. I just usually hand tighten and then give it a few cranks with a ratchet until it feels nice and snug. Sometimes for extra insurance, I'll give it another tiny crank. And just to be sure, I always mark the filter with a paint pen. I draw an arrow pointing straight up. After I change a filter, I'll occasionally look at it to make sure the arrow hasn't changed direction (indicating the filter's unwinding). It helps to have wrenching experience because you develop a sense of what is too tight and too loose. In other words, you have a built-in torque wrench. But there's no way to develop that sense if you never start. Having someone show you how is a good place to start if you're tentative.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:23 pm

BuddyRaton, nix that request for torque values. I just realized it's all in one place on page 7 & 8 of the service manual. I usually skip to the section I need and then hunt for the values. I didn't realize it was posted up near the top of the document. Thanks anyway.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:42 am

k1dude wrote:BuddyRaton, nix that request for torque values. I just realized it's all in one place on page 7 & 8 of the service manual. I usually skip to the section I need and then hunt for the values. I didn't realize it was posted up near the top of the document. Thanks anyway.

Yeah I remembered that they weren't bad to find...I just couldn't remember where I found them. Imagine that...actually in the service manual!

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:03 am

Stormswift wrote:I would loved to learn to change oil and filter myself. Sometimes geting to the shop is a big production .
I am not sure from all thereads and pictorials which of the 2 filters is easiest to take off and install. I also do not have the torque wrench and I am affraid I would either over tighten or unrertighten and mess op my bike

Here is what I have done. We had a "tech day" at Casa Raton...other wise known as my house. The idea was to do basic maintenance especially with inexperienced people. Bring your own oil filters etc. I volunteered to take all the used oil to the recycler.

The owner would do the work but with the experienced people talking them through it. We did have a few "but I'll get oil on my hands!" moments to which the answer was...wear gloves if you want to...but you're going to get dirty!

We also did hot dogs and brats and had a fun day. Oh yeah...we also wound up tearing into a 67 Lambretta TV175

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:11 am

BuddyRaton, what is that workstand called again? And where do you buy them? I know you said they were very expensive. I'm wondering how expensive is expensive?

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:01 am

It's a Kendon cruiser lift
http://www.kendonusa.com/cruiserlift.html

I ordered the sport but they sent the next one up for the same price..

It has advantages and disadvantages over something like a HF table lift.

For me the biggest advantage is that when not using you can stand it up against the wall. My shop isn't that big and sometimes I jam 4 scooters in there...if one is completely in parts! (My 64 GL is down to the frame with everything in a box) Plus I don't need or want to use a lift for everything. Dropping a vintage motor? Pull the exhaust...disconnect everything...on the lift

The 79 P200 donor scooter

....take it off the lift....stand the lift up...get out the motorcycle jack...pull two bolts jack up the frame and the motor is out.

64 GL that is now totally apart, bagged, tagged and almost ready for paint...when I get home.

The table lifts can be great...if you have the room for them. I think the HF lift weighs about 600 lbs and eats a lot of space, but it is cheaper.

Some people like a table lift but he Kendon really fits my needs.

Check around...there are also plenty of plans on how to build a platform that can be broken down and stored. Me...when I want to get to work I just don't have the patience to first assemble a platform!

Plus if you're not working on anything...stand up the lift...pull in the beat up comfy chair and watch NASCAR!

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:12 am

Yeah, $700 or $800 is pretty steep. But it's a nice stand for sure. Maybe I'll roll around on the ground for a few more years. Thanks for the info!