NSR: MacBook Pro

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:26 am

I know there is a fair amount of computer and IT type expertise here in MB, so I thought I would seek opinions and practical experiences. And I realize this is one of those subjects that, for whatever reasons, can turn a bit divisive or nasty, so I'll say up front, I hope this doesn't go there.

Anyway, I'm a long time Dell or HP laptop user and of course have been locked into the Windows OS. My affinity for those products has lessened over the years, and I'm considering giving the MacBook Pro a shot.

I don't know if I want to go all out with their retina display, but that's a consideration. I am strongly considering the solid state drive.

My background with Apple is iPhone and iPod. Basically, the use of my laptop these days is internet browsing, photo and video editing, heavy usage of Excel, occasional Powerpoint, and some miscellaneous applications.

My questions include MacBook reliability, limitations/strengths of OS X, length of learning curve or maybe comfort factor in moving from Windows to OS X, incompatibility with Window based applications, opinions of the Photo/Video editing applications Aperture/Final Cut Pro vs. the Photoshop/Photoshop Elements/Premiere Elements product to which I'm accustomed?

Any other comments/opinions?

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any feedback.

Rob

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:37 am

Really not a fan of apple laptops myself. The one I owned was far overpriced for the hardware (it was back when most other laptops were bulky and I had to carry mine around on my feet all day) and had terrible battery life. The build quality was also low.

Those things may have changed since then but the biggest hold up for me was the fact that the MS office suite had subtle differences between the mac version and the pc one which made it a huge headache to work on the same file from different machines.

Diblit · Post by **Diblit** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:46 am

i'm on my macbook pro right now!! as far as ease of use, MS was modeled after macintosh....so if you can navigate around MS you'll be great with a mac. i haven't tried the photo programs for the mac.....i use photoshop cs (an old version) and it works great with the mac. as far as photo work, that's what mac is known to excel at....much better visual display than MS. i started with a mac in the early years (about '83-'84) and swore by them for many years. then i got a job where windows was only used, so i switched to a pc. made the switch back to mac about 10 years ago and am now on my second laptop. i will get the warranty each year just in case, but only had to use it once with my old macbook (which still works well). i do have my back-up pc, but am never on it....don't really need it....don't really like it. if you get a chance, go to an apple store and play on one of the MacBooks to see how easy it is. guaranteed...you will love it! (oh, and viruses don't hurt macs....for some reason virus developers only make them to attack pcs.)

good luck!!

hg3 · Post by **hg3** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:01 am

I am prejudice for Apple/Mac have been so since 1980 with my first Apple ii and now a AirBook. As Diblit recommends go to a Apple Store and let them show you around. Then take your time and play/work on a Mac. it just may catch a spark of enthusiasm in you.

Oparu · Post by **Oparu** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:17 am

I've been using Macs since the late 1990's, before they became cool. I have used them for audio (I am a former audio engineer) and for video (FC Pro and iMovie). Most Mac software is quite intuitive after you understand how it is structured. iMovie is obviously more intuitive because it's for amateur videographers but it can do some cool stuff. Depending on how fancy your video projects are, iMovie might be all you need. It took a little while longer to figure out Final Cut Pro but that's just because there is a Viewer and Canvas, in addition to more capabilities (e.g. layering video on video, having 2 videos going at the same time side by side, etc.). Sometimes they have these programs on the computers at the Apple Store, so you can fiddle with them there.

Other than that, just remember that on the Mac, the Command (Apple) key takes the place of the Control key on the PC, when you're using key commands (e.g. Ctl-P for print). There's a lot of overlap.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:28 am

This opens a flame war of potential...

All I can say is wait until Windows 8 is out. I can honestly say the SAME EXACT hardware that is in my Sony Vaio is the same that was in a MacBook Pro when I bought it around March. The MacBoook Pro with TWICE the price of this Vaio. Same processor, same manufacturer hard drive, same screen size and even the same manufacture of RAM (except I got more of it in the Vaio). I have to use both OS's at work, and I personally feel the Mac is not fit for the workplace due to many issues with it's OS. That, and it crashes more than any Windows 7 machine we have at the venue.

As for "Retina" display: It's all hype and marketing. With the launch of Windows 8, MS, Samsung and Asus are all planning ultrabooks that have ultra-high resolution displays. Again, Apple didn't invent high resolution. They just put a brand name to it so you think they invented something new.

Remember: The reason you are wanting a Mac because it's trendy to want a mac and to hate on Windows. Mainstream media pushes this idea, and billions have been spent in slick advertising to make image stronger than facts. With such a huge revision of an OS around the corner, buying anything without fully seeing both sides of the market would be an uninformed decision. If you have determined after seeing MS's in house options that Mac is still the better OS, right on. But, people's opinions will be set and asking for advice on a topic that has become as socially charged as politics in 2012 is sure to get alot of reaction to say the least

spr0k3t · Post by **spr0k3t** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:43 am

I reserve the word "hate" for all things apple. I would strongly advise against buying any apple products. There are better options out there available for even 1/3 the price of the macbook for the same specs. Keep something in mind, if you ever have a hardware problem with the new macbook, just plan to throw it away as they have designed it in such a way where there's no chance to do any repairs.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:00 am

spr0k3t wrote:I reserve the word "hate" for all things apple. I would strongly advise against buying any apple products. There are better options out there available for even 1/3 the price of the macbook for the same specs. Keep something in mind, if you ever have a hardware problem with the new macbook, just plan to throw it away as they have designed it in such a way where there's no chance to do any repairs.

And, most people who complalin about Windows "always crashing" comes from the nearly 35% who are STILL using Windows XP, a bit of software made over 11 years ago. Nearly every old school windows problem can be traced back to bad drivers. This is because everybody and their mother competed to make machines to use Windows, but not one standard spec requirement was set.

With Windows 7 and ESPECIALLY Windows 8, much of the hardware specs are being kept strict and in house. This was the final block removed from Windows that kept people complaining over trivial matters. In house spec control is *one* thing Apple did right, but they refuse to allow anything on their computers to be fixed, opened or modified. They can even remove software you install on an Apple device that YOU OWN without your permission via a program called "Killswitch". They insist you must only install software from Apple. Yep. Buy a Mac, and you don't even own it. Can't even smoke around it (it will void the warranty... the warranty you have to BUY.)

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:25 am

neotrotsky wrote:This opens a flame war of potential...

Perhaps, or as I'd hoped, maybe just a civil and mature debate on the merits and weaknesses of different options.

neotrotsky wrote:All I can say is wait until Windows 8 is out. I can honestly say the SAME EXACT hardware that is in my Sony Vaio is the same that was in a MacBook Pro when I bought it around March. The MacBoook Pro with TWICE the price of this Vaio. Same processor, same manufacturer hard drive, same screen size and even the same manufacture of RAM (except I got more of it in the Vaio). I have to use both OS's at work, and I personally feel the Mac is not fit for the workplace due to many issues with it's OS. That, and it crashes more than any Windows 7 machine we have at the venue

Good feedback and I'm in no hurry.

neotrotsky wrote:As for "Retina" display: It's all hype and marketing. With the launch of Windows 8, MS, Samsung and Asus are all planning ultrabooks that have ultra-high resolution displays. Again, Apple didn't invent high resolution. They just put a brand name to it so you think they invented something new.

I'm quite aware that Apple didn't invent HR, but the display is impressive none the less. As always, checking out competitive technologies is sound.

neotrotsky wrote:Remember: The reason you are wanting a Mac because it's trendy to want a mac and to hate on Windows.

That would be a very incorrect assumption. I'm in the process automation profession. My areas of expertise would be the process itself and PLC programming. I have others in the group that build and maintain our front end systems ... currently Dell systems currently Windows 7. We are locked into the Windows systems, but the computer techies have a wide variety of opinions on the Apple vs Windows debate for their personal systems. Much of their reasoning is not really applicable to me, thus my soliciting of opinions in this forum.

neotrotsky wrote:But, people's opinions will be set and asking for advice on a topic that has become as socially charged as politics in 2012 is sure to get alot of reaction to say the least

Again, I think it's possible to have a mature discussion, respecting differing opinions without all the childish BS. It happens all the time in the world.
But once the disrepect, inflammatory comments, etc., commence, things quickly go south and turn unproductive. It's usually limited to a few individuals. Hopefully folks can remain civil or just refrain from posting.

Rob

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:28 am

Macs are certainly nice laptops and for most of what you mention, a Mac would probably work very well. The only thing that set off alarm bells for me is your "heavy use" of Excel. I've had a number of users I support flirt with the idea of a Mac, but once they try Excel on it, they come running back to Windows. Even our Mac expert at work says it's just not good for serious Excel use. Just to put my remarks in context, I support a bunch of accountants, so Excel is very important for them. I'm a Windows person myself; I've built my career supporting it (after it killed Novell, that is). I'll acknowledge that Apple makes some nice machines. But Windows 7 is also a very mature and stable operating system, and quite nice to use. As stated above, it's a lot cheaper than a Mac and in my experience, it's better for Excel.

My main advice when it comes to Windows machines is: Don't buy an HP!

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:46 am

pdxrita wrote:Macs are certainly nice laptops and for most of what you mention, a Mac would probably work very well. The only thing that set off alarm bells for me is your "heavy use" of Excel. I've had a number of users I support flirt with the idea of a Mac, but once they try Excel on it, they come running back to Windows. Even our Mac expert at work says it's just not good for serious Excel use. Just to put my remarks in context, I support a bunch of accountants, so Excel is very important for them. I'm a Windows person myself; I've built my career supporting it (after it killed Novell, that is). I'll acknowledge that Apple makes some nice machines. But Windows 7 is also a very mature and stable operating system, and quite nice to use. As stated above, it's a lot cheaper than a Mac and in my experience, it's better for Excel.

My main advice when it comes to Windows machines is: Don't buy an HP!

Not buying an HP is a sound bet. It's why I went with Sony. They along with Lenovo pretty much have the PC model down. Granted, with MS making alot of changes to being an in-house affair this could change, but my current machine comes with a 1 year no-questions-asked warranty. What does this mean? Well, my hard drive went out on me after an idiot stagehand knocked it off the desk while it was rendering a recording (And yes, because of that and a few other failings he is no longer employed with us). I called Sony and told them the issue. Their response?

Send a technician 48 hours afterwards to my worksite and replaced it with a BIGGER hard drive. Free.

No having to go to a "genius" bar (talk about a condescending term) and to be charged for everything they can find fault in. Sony didn't ask how I could of voided my warranty, they just took action. Frankly I'm surprised they did what they did. But, it was a very positive thing!

Alot of what comes down to a big purchase like a computer is customer service: How easily can I get parts, issues solved and repairs done? Apple having retail stores is a GREAT thing! I think that is something they should of done sooner, and I'm glad MS is now having factory stores. But, the way I've been treated the few times I've gone into some of the Apple stores is more than a bit condescending. They love reminding you that their devices are "magical" and everyone is referenced to as a "genius" at their tech support desk, and have no problem remind YOU the consumer that they are the ones trained in it and whatever your observations are, you are reminded (politely at times) that you are wrong, and just be quiet. And, the fact that you have to buy a warranty that most PC manufacturers give for free is a bit unsettling, and another hidden "Apple Tax" that you don't discover until you end up ready to buy a device.

The issue with Excel is something we've encountered as well, along with a few other programs. Part of me feels it's in the way the OS is designed around some things in those programs. The Apple environment makes everything "one button", but zero flexibility. If you've worked in Windows you are used to 10 ways to do something. You won't get that in Apple. It's their one way. It's why I LOVE the software program Logic Pro, but hate that it's done in a very "mac" way. Very much makes the user feel dim when you don't do it their one way, and encourages dumbing down of users by saying "OH, if Logic is too cluttered...there's always *garage band*". They do cater to the lowest common denominator, because that's what sells. Windows went another way by making their OS available to be licensed out to other firms who made computers. But, that's where the driver issue came from that I mentioned before.

Macs are great if you're the kind of person who takes a car, computer or any other device to a factory-approved facility and just demands them to "fix the widget!" in a typical haus-frau fashion. Then Apple will provide that service making you feel special, but it will always cost you. Alot. But, if you actually have knowledge about how your software and hardware work, and simply want support for when the device doesn't do what it says on the tin without being treated like a grade-schooler, there are other options.

Is MS taking a page from Apple's book by doing some computers in-house? Yes. So is Google. But like Google, MS is keeping it open to other developers as well, knowing it's that community that will think sideways and continue to develop for new needs. With Apple, the only development comes from Apple itself and who it *lets* develop for them.

phatch · Post by **phatch** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:40 am

I like mine ('09 MBP Unibody) and haven't really had any issues with it. I came from an HP laptop that barely made it through college (but to it's defense, was running XP), and had no issues getting used to OSX.

Battery life has been stellar. The newest version of Excel does a lot better than the previous. We have both Mac and PC in the house - I think the biggest complaint with the PC laptop is that it's a cheaper Lenovo model with a not-so-good build. Our Lenovo desktop is fine, though.

I mainly bought the MBP to use Logic, which is like GarageBand's daddy, and only available on Mac.

I think Neo's right though, in that you should see what Windows 8 does. Then, find a nice model to run the system that isn't a big ole clunker with a crap battery and poor screen resolution. Sony's are probably the best I've seen so far of PC's. If you can find one that's priced better than a MBP, then there ya go

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:54 am

Rob wrote:Any other comments/opinions?

Rob, I feel like I am just a couple steps ahead of you down this same path. I got my son a MacBook Pro with a disk drive last Christmas (he loves it) and I am getting my wife a MacBook Pro with a solid state drive (SSD) later this month.

The reason I am waiting to buy my wife's MacBook Pro is that the new Mac OS (Mountain Lion) is slated to come out in July (July 25 is the hot rumor). I am just waiting to get a machine with Mountain Lion already installed.

We have decided to get the non-Retina MacBook Pro and upgrade to the smallest (128GB) solid-state drive in the hope that it will be stone reliable for the life of the machine. However, 128GB would be a little small if she were going to work with a lot of video. In that case, I might choose the larger non-SSD drive to save money and get more storage space.

Good luck!

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:09 am

neotrotsky wrote:Remember: The reason you are wanting a Mac because it's trendy to want a mac and to hate on Windows. Mainstream media pushes this idea, and billions have been spent in slick advertising to make image stronger than facts.

Oh, puh-leeeeease. People talk about "Apple snobbery" but I've never heard an Apple user say anything nearly as condescending and dismissive as this. Millions of Mac owners aren't simple-minded victims of media manipulation. It's just as trendy to hate on Apple these days. If you doubt me, start a post about Apple or Macs on a forum and wait to see how long it takes for someone to start in on the Apple-hating. Or just check every thread anywhere like this one.

Seriously, folks, if you're intent on re-hashing the World's Most Tedious Online Debate (Apple vs. Every/Anything Else) I'm sure there are many places other than this where you can go do it.

Rob wrote:My background with Apple is iPhone and iPod. Basically, the use of my laptop these days is internet browsing, photo and video editing, heavy usage of Excel, occasional Powerpoint, and some miscellaneous applications.

My questions include MacBook reliability, limitations/strengths of OS X, length of learning curve or maybe comfort factor in moving from Windows to OS X, incompatibility with Window based applications, opinions of the Photo/Video editing applications Aperture/Final Cut Pro vs. the Photoshop/Photoshop Elements/Premiere Elements product to which I'm accustomed?

Are you doing Pro-level stuff? What software will you be using? Aperture is unnecessary for most people. Even as a pro, I use Bridge, which comes with Adobe Creative Suite. iMovie is cheaper than Premiere Elements, a bit easier to use but may not have all of the same features.

Every editor I know has complaints about FCP X. I'm not sure if it's bad or just because the interface was totally redone. Many are sticking with the previous version.

As far as the hardware and OS in general, well… I'm on my second MBP, before which I had a PowerBook G4, etc. My previous MBP had a couple issues with the fan, replaced under warranty twice, then never a problem again. Later, some wear and tear problems after being dropped a couple times. (No one to blame but myself!)

I no longer have a desktop machine at home. I just use an external monitor. I don't do much video, but am often running Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator and Bridge at the same time without issues. Crashes? Rare. Software may crash on occasion, but it's pretty unusual for the OS to crash or freeze.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:38 am

If you want a crash, use Logic Pro on a Core i5 mac. Funny how they design what is honestly a GREAT MIDI program and a halfway-decent multitrack DAW, but anything over 12 channels scares it. And Apple designed the software! Guaranteed for at least a Pinwheel of Death every other session.

Then again, if you're doing it professionally for stability, I tell my stagehands only use ProTools on the Mac at the theater and don't process. I take the rest of it home and use either PT or Reaper on my rig since I can't risk a crash losing recordings. They really have no need for Logic Pro anyways for what they are doing

jonlink · Post by **jonlink** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:58 pm

I started on a Mac and then switched to Windows. In college, just before OS X came creeping out, I got a job working with the Macs on campus. I hated the crap out of OS 9. When OS X came out I instantly knew it was time for a change. Haven't looked back since. I used to have to endlessly fix my computers for my family. One day I finally told them I'd only help them if they had Macs. They all switched. The thing is, they've only needed my help a handful of times since (4-5 years and counting).

In my experience there is a small learning curve, made smaller if you have some technical proficiency.

I don't think it is accurate to compare specs and call it a day. The user experience is different on a Mac. The OS upgrades are insanely modest in terms of pricing and ease of transition. The hardware is (in my opinion) of superior design. The hard drive size, processor, graphics, and memory are only a small part of a larger package.

Even though neotrotsky implied that Apple has bad customer service, I've never experienced that. In fact, I had an iMac that developed a (very slight) band of extra brightness on the bottom of the screen after two years. They replaced the computer with the newest version at no cost to me. I had an iPod Touch (now stolen

) that had a bright spot in the center of the screen and the guy at the Apple store just asked me if it was backed up before replacing it. The truth is that Apple is consistently rated best for customer service.

If you are totally satisfied with your experience on a windows computer, stick with it. But it seems like you aren't. Go to the Apple store and try to do some stuff. Even better, if you can swing it, borrow a friends computer for a day or three and see how things work out for you.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:10 pm

I've owned both Windows and Mac computers since the 80s, I use both kinds personally, and I support both of them professionally. They each have points in their favor and against, and I'd be happy to have a private discussion with anyone who wants an experienced and fair viewpoint about them. But I'm not going to participate in this discussion because it's obviously already degenerated into another hypocritical rant from Neo.

MWPMWP · Post by **MWPMWP** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:51 pm

The Apple vs PC discussion kind of reminds me of the Democrat vs Republican discussion. You'll have strong opinions on both sides. The fun part of life is trying different things. You know what a PC is like, so now try out the Apple. What a better way to form your opinion than to own and use both.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:05 pm

MWPMWP wrote:The Apple vs PC discussion kind of reminds me of the Democrat vs Republican discussion. You'll have strong opinions on both sides. The fun part of life is trying different things. You know what a PC is like, so now try out the Apple. What a better way to form your opinion than to own and use both.

I was looking for the LIKE button then remembered this isn't facebook. But I agree 100%, both have their merits, and it's possible to make a well-researched and logical argument for either side, but that never seems to happen and you get ill-informed reactionary spazzes rehashing propaganda and marketing talking points as they accuse the other side of doing the same.

No one can make an informed decision until they've really used both. I'm a Mac guy and PCs drive me nuts when I'm forced to use one, but I'm not dim enough to think that it's because 'they suck,' but only that I haven't spent much time with them and I'm used to the Mac interface.

I'd just say if you have years of experience, and gigabytes of PC files and software, the transition might be difficult, expensive, and frustrating. I think that would be the case with any major switch from one set of hardware/software to another. From what I've seen Mac makes it pretty easy, but there will definitely be software you'll need to buy and files you'll need to convert and stuff like that.

And I agree that the upcoming windows update looks very VERY promising, and while it appears to be a more radical change than most big Windows updates, it seems like they've simplified the upgrade paths and kept a link to 'the old way' to help you acclimate, so it may be worth holding out until after that to see how it pans out.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:26 pm

MWPMWP wrote:The Apple vs PC discussion kind of reminds me of the Democrat vs Republican discussion. You'll have strong opinions on both sides. The fun part of life is trying different things. You know what a PC is like, so now try out the Apple. What a better way to form your opinion than to own and use both.

It IS amusing that Apple vs. Mac causes heat usually reserved for politics.

Or football if one is from the great state of Alabama, where only one game a year really matters and your team represents all that is good and true and the other side is the spawn of Satan.

Charged or not, a lot of good experience has been shared here.

I personally come down on the PC side with some Linux thrown in. I, too, want to see Windows 8 but since MS has the much larger user base, I think it inevitable that the fiends will be writing the most malware for it as always. And the usual result of this is a computer that eventually gets slower over time. As my IT friends explain, the only real solution is to keep everything backed up and when it acts up, "blow it away" and reload from scratch.

Everybody else here knows much more about your specialized software than I do. I WILL say that W7 does seem somewhat more stable than XP.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:03 am

I am a simple Windows network admin, so take the following with a salt block.

I agree that OSX made Mac OS interesting again. Far and away it is the best window manager for a 'nix based OS out there.

Linux, as much as I find it interesting, and admitting all its merits, just isn't ready for wide scale use. You just can't expect Mom to have to know what /usr/local/bin/mozilla/firefox/profile/usr/default.xyz/prefs.js is. Forget about CUPS. I know Linux admins that hate CUPS.

And admitting all of Windows faults, though many of my users have, I have never experienced the regular, fatal failures that are reported to plague Windows. This means to me that many of the problems Windows users complain about (and iFanboys quote without direct knowledge) are self inflicted.

Find the OS that does what you want done, practice safe computing, and enjoy (or at least use) your computer for years to come. Can't we all just get along?

gitsum79 · Post by **gitsum79** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:36 pm

Microsoft is just too vulnerable to virus/malware/spyware. It just gets worse as time goes on, there no way your anti-virus software can even begin to keep up.

You have three choices:

1) Get a Macintosh (which can cost a few extra bucks)

2) Get an android tablet or iPad (still not 100% functionality of a Mac or PC, but close)

3) Install a good Linux distro on your PC. (dual boot if you need to use specific Windows software, but only use the internet with Linux!)

I chose options 2 and 3, haven't used windows to go online in about 6 or 7 years.
I have watched many people suffer with virus/malware/spyware problems, and just don't understand why they put up with it. They think the have no choice but to use a Microsoft OS, and that just isn't true!

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:24 pm

I think the virus argument is somewhat unfair (even as a mac fan) because it's only PARTIALLY a matter of vulnerability, and more a matter of ubiquity and user awareness.

Macs are not invulnerable, they're just far less targeted than PCs. As Mac market share increases, viruses and trojan horses have started to appear, the recent one was actually very widespread by most standards, though still a very small percentage of users.

That's the biggest factor, but i think there are two other factors:

1) Mac users are less likely to ignore warnings, and install questionable software.

2) Mac software is usually distributed through the App Store or through a few specialized and respected sites, unlike the morass of questionable 'free stuff' sites for PC software. They're probably more likely just to pay for music (if you have a $2000 computer, it's just easier to pay freaking 99¢ for a song than to troll through sixteen virus-ridden russian mp3 sites to find the new Ke$ha single) etc. PC users call this "locked down" and not user-friendly, but it's just a different ideology. When apple controls more, they can cut down on a lot of bad stuff. It's frontier-anarcho-liberatarianism (PC) vs. benevolent capitalist authoritarianism (Mac) neither's better, it's nice to have the choice, but I know which one I'm happier using.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:06 pm

Rob- I'll echo some of Eric's comments about Final Cut Pro X. Essentially in this new version they made FCP X work more like iMovie. Why they did this no one really knows. In the version 1 day of the program, FCP X was missing many essential pro features- multi cam support and support for some crucial video types being two of them. This made it literally unusable for professional editors.

Most if not all of the missing features have been added back now and I am seeing some slow adoption. The interface is still a big hurdle to pro editors, partially because it kind of looks and acts like a non-pro app. However, if you are familiar with iMovie as I am, it's made the transition to FCP X much easier. But it will be very different than Premiere and the old FCP will not run reliably on the current Apple OS.

I have much less experience with image editing software (Photoshop, etc) but there is a really popular app called Pixelmator that seems to be at least a competitor for Photoshop Elements for a very low price. I use it on my machine and while I'm certain I'm using about 15% of its power, it's pretty impressive.

For your Excel and Powerpoint usage, if you go Mac I'd recommend their iWork apps (Numbers and Keynote). They are both fairly cross-compatible and Keynote for one provides in my opinion, much better presentations. It's what Steve Jobs had Apple create for his famous keynotes when Powerpoint wasn't getting it done. I have all my Office documents set to open in their respective iWork counterparts and love it.

As for general opinion, I have been a Mac user essentially my whole computing life. I don't disparage Windows or Windows users at all but I have had great experiences with Apple and I enjoy the benevolent-capitalist-authoritarianism that Bb talked about because it generally keeps me from spending my computer time fixing problems and instead I get to do my work. I know that a responsible Windows user can have the same experience I do, though.

As for reliability I've owned probably 5 Mac laptops from old Powerbooks to iBooks to MacBooks to MacBook Pro. Only one has given me significant problems to the point I wasn't very happy with it. I've always experienced great Apple support but, still, it was a drag. It was an Apple refurbished machine (which almost all of mine have been) and that may or may not have contributed.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:17 pm

illnoise wrote:I think the virus argument is somewhat unfair (even as a mac fan) because it's only PARTIALLY a matter of vulnerability, and more a matter of ubiquity and user awareness.

Macs are not invulnerable, they're just far less targeted than PCs. As Mac market share increases, viruses and trojan horses have started to appear, the recent one was actually very widespread by most standards, though still a very small percentage of users.

That's the biggest factor, but i think there are two other factors:

1) Mac users are less likely to ignore warnings, and install questionable software.

2) Mac software is usually distributed through the App Store or through a few specialized and respected sites, unlike the morass of questionable 'free stuff' sites for PC software. They're probably more likely just to pay for music (if you have a $2000 computer, it's just easier to pay freaking 99¢ for a song than to troll through sixteen virus-ridden russian mp3 sites to find the new Ke$ha single) etc. PC users call this "locked down" and not user-friendly, but it's just a different ideology. When apple controls more, they can cut down on a lot of bad stuff. It's frontier-anarcho-liberatarianism (PC) vs. benevolent capitalist authoritarianism (Mac) neither's better, it's nice to have the choice, but I know which one I'm happier using.

DingDingDing! This.

Just as I am amazed at how many people who have never looked under the hood of their car will start adding performance mods to their scoot, I am constantly amazed at how little people think of installing something in Windows. I can understand the temptation - there is just so much stuff out there. So much stuff that might do what I think would be cool to do. So yeah, I'll install WeatherBug; who doesn't want to know what the weather is? Sure, I'll get cracked programs from a website that has warez in their name (or no name at all, just an IP). I don't know if I really want the program, so why buy it? And warez is cool, right? Then when a Windows 7 AntiVirus 2012 popup appears that says I might be infected with dozens of viruses and asks if I'd like a free scan to find out? Yeah you betcha I would! that logo sure looks like the Windows logo; it's gotta be good, doesn't it?

iMoses · Post by **iMoses** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:41 pm

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue (':?:')

I do have a Mac laptop that I bought new in 2005. Running Photoshop CS, InDesign CS and iMovie HD. I think it has paid for itself. Never been in the shop. Though I did install a larger hard drive recently.

ComputerWorld did a story "Mac vs. PC cost analysis: How does it all add up?"

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/ ... ll_add_up_

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:17 pm

jmazza wrote:Rob- I'll echo some of Eric's comments about Final Cut Pro X. Essentially in this new version they made FCP X work more like iMovie. Why they did this no one really knows. In the version 1 day of the program, FCP X was missing many essential pro features- multi cam support and support for some crucial video types being two of them. This made it literally unusable for professional editors.

Most if not all of the missing features have been added back now and I am seeing some slow adoption. The interface is still a big hurdle to pro editors, partially because it kind of looks and acts like a non-pro app. However, if you are familiar with iMovie as I am, it's made the transition to FCP X much easier. But it will be very different than Premiere and the old FCP will not run reliably on the current Apple OS.

I spoke with a friend last night who works for Apple, specifically with their high-end video apps. He said that he actually likes FCPX (and he'd tell me if he didn't) and that some of the high-end functionality that went away with the new version should be coming back soon. Aside from the interface changes, this was a big part of why many users don't like it. So, maybe, next version.

jmazza wrote:As for reliability I've owned probably 5 Mac laptops from old Powerbooks to iBooks to MacBooks to MacBook Pro. Only one has given me significant problems to the point I wasn't very happy with it. I've always experienced great Apple support but, still, it was a drag. It was an Apple refurbished machine (which almost all of mine have been) and that may or may not have contributed.

I almost always buy Apple refurbished, with exception of my current MBP (there weren't good enough deals on the 17" in refurbished). The good thing is that they're just new and come with the full warranty.

I know a lot of people make jokes about the Genius Bar at Apple Stores, but I've gotten very good service when I've had to go there. It's great to have a place to go to get help when needed.

SoCalScooter · Post by **SoCalScooter** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:49 pm

Rob wrote:...I'm considering giving the MacBook Pro a shot.

I don't know if I want to go all out with their retina display, but that's a consideration. I am strongly considering the solid state drive.

My background with Apple is iPhone and iPod. Basically, the use of my laptop these days is internet browsing, photo and video editing, heavy usage of Excel, occasional Powerpoint, and some miscellaneous applications.

My questions include MacBook reliability, limitations/strengths of OS X, length of learning curve or maybe comfort factor in moving from Windows to OS X, incompatibility with Window based applications, opinions of the Photo/Video editing applications Aperture/Final Cut Pro vs. the Photoshop/Photoshop Elements/Premiere Elements product to which I'm accustomed?

Any other comments/opinions?

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any feedback.

Rob

Do you NEED a macbook pro? Don't count out the Air for the things you're looking at using it for.

You could get a pretty decked out new Macbook Air for $1,600 - might save you a few $ over the pro... refurb from last year will be ~25% cheaper.

Gizmodo review:

http://gizmodo.com/5923184/macbook-air- ... lar-people

You can do gaming and photo and video editing on the MacBook Air as well... Here's an interesting blog post on using Final Cut Pro to get a feeling on the user experience (using last year's model Air):

"Even though I have a 2010 MacBook Pro and a 2009 iMac I still do all my video editing on my MacBook Air. I guess I do this mainly out of convenience. Something is so appealing about working on a MacBook Air instead of a MacBook Pro (what now seems like a big, heavy brick) or trapped at a desk working on an iMac. Surprisingly, I have not had any issues or experienced poor performance (no spinning beach balls) when using FCP X on my MacBook Air. As an example, my latest video below I was able to put together in about 15 minutes. More surprising was the encoding speed:" http://brandonbohling.com/2011/10/30/FC ... Follow-Up/

Edit - I encourage you to try out the Mac - you'll probably really like it. BUT, if you don't, that's okay! Your mac will hold its resale value - you can sell it on Craigslist for almost what you paid for it. You can use to proceeds to buy one of the new Vizio Thin and Light 15.6" laptops running Win8 (or whatever model)

Edit #2 - I have an early 2008 MacBook Pro (2.4 ghz core2 duo) running Lion. It's the best computer I've ever owned. The only problem I've ever had with it is when my friend accidentally placed a a set of magnets on the computer while moving some things off the table. it fried the hard drive (which was replaced under my applecare with out question).

amy · Post by **amy** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:07 pm

The only beautiful white object I love (just a little bit) more than my Buddy is my Mac.

I'm a long term Mac user. They are expensive but they LAST.

EXAMPLE: I just got rid of my Titanium PowerBook G4 which had to be about 8 years old. Did it break? NO! I just upgraded and gave it to a friend who is running it perfectly.

Don't let PC users scare you off. Apples are easy-peasey-lemon-squeezy to use once you understand a couple of basics.

Hwarang · Post by **Hwarang** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:12 pm

Wow,

This thread is already filled with fun. I'll just add a simple vote to the mix:

I prefer OSX as an operating system, and find that my MBP is of a much higher build quality. I have a personal MBP and a work MBP. My work MBP has Parallels & Windows installed. I'm not a PC hater by any means (In fact, my opinion is that interwebz professionals should be required to love both).

My logic about when to spend the bling on a higher price-point item is this: Do you use it every day? If so, buy good quality. This applies for things like clothing, computers, coffee & scooters ... go ahead and skimp on stuff that barely affects you.

Go premium for the stuff that matters most. Even for random joe users who don't do anything work related with their computer, it's pretty safe to say that the computer is a very important tool.

In terms of differences, learning curve and compatibility ... well that's not an issue anymore. OSX and Windows actually operate in a very similar manner. It's just a few shortcut keys and whatnot that's different. Programs are all cross-compatible, especially the MS Office suite.

Haters on both sides should be ignored. Listen to level voices that don't spew vitriol.

ThreeSheets · Post by **ThreeSheets** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:41 pm

cost benefit analysis.. both are great computers and both have comp hardware inside the shiny cases. So basicly its what will satisfy your utility more!

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:58 pm

Of my friends and acquaintences, I've disregarded the Apple fanboy's/fangirl's opinions and narrowed it down to the 5 people I know who will give an honest and fair opinion. All 5 own mulitple computers in both platforms and are considered bigtime techies.

In a nutshell, I've been told neither is superior. Both have good points and bad. Both have equal learning curves. Disregard the opinions of those that say Apple is more intuitive. Both occasionally crash.

Where the Apple is superior is industrial design and some of the software like iMovie. They just flat out look and feel cool. But that's the only real reason to justify the nosebleed prices. There are still compatibility problems and I've experienced several of them firsthand. And they still suck if you're a gamer. But hats-off to them for the wow factor and the bling factor.

But I don't usually fall for bling and premium prices. For those who have deep pockets - go for it.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:55 pm

Lokky wrote:Really not a fan of apple laptops myself. The one I owned was far overpriced for the hardware.
Those things may have changed since then but the biggest hold up for me was the fact that the MS office suite had subtle differences between the mac version and the pc one which made it a huge headache to work on the same file from different machines.

Diblit wrote:if you get a chance, go to an apple store and play on one of the MacBooks to see how easy it is. guaranteed...you will love it! (oh, and viruses don't hurt macs....for some reason virus developers only make them to attack pcs.)
good luck!!

hg3 wrote:I am prejudice for Apple/Mac have been so since 1980 with my first Apple ii and now a AirBook. As Diblit recommends go to a Apple Store and let them show you around. Then take your time and play/work on a Mac. it just may catch a spark of enthusiasm in you.

Oparu wrote:iMovie is obviously more intuitive because it's for amateur videographers but it can do some cool stuff. Depending on how fancy your video projects are, iMovie might be all you need. Sometimes they have these programs on the computers at the Apple Store, so you can fiddle with them there.

No doubt the Apple products are a bit pricey, but that's not my prime consideration. And that's good advice. I will get to an Apple Store this weekend, play around with it and see how it 'feels'. After two heavy virus infections in the last 8 months (despite being what I thought was well protected), the lack of such a large malware target on my back (or laptop) would be welcomed. iMovie would quite likely be all I need. I just mentioned FC Pro because when I search through the available Mac photo and video editing software, it looked to be close to Premiere Elements. My video projects aren't all that fancy, but I do like to mess around with some of the special effects and the fun stuff.

spr0k3t wrote:I reserve the word "hate" for all things apple. I would strongly advise against buying any apple products. There are better options out there available for even 1/3 the price of the macbook for the same specs. Keep something in mind, if you ever have a hardware problem with the new macbook, just plan to throw it away as they have designed it in such a way where there's no chance to do any repairs.

Is your opinion of the repairability based on recent experiences? After talking to some of the folks at work, the consensus seems to be that Apple has been very flexible in replacing the equipment if they can't replace it. In one instance, this was apparently done out of warranty. But reliability is certain high on my list of concerns and criteria. To date, I've been able to repair most hardware issues on my laptops (outside of the screen failure).

Rob

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:12 am

pdxrita wrote:Macs are certainly nice laptops and for most of what you mention, a Mac would probably work very well. The only thing that set off alarm bells for me is your "heavy use" of Excel. I've had a number of users I support flirt with the idea of a Mac, but once they try Excel on it, they come running back to Windows. Even our Mac expert at work says it's just not good for serious Excel use.

Thanks for that feedback because this is one of my concerns. I am a heavy Excel user. Basically because I bring a lot of my work home with me and use Excel as one of my tools for process analysis. I really don't want to have to keep and support two laptops or OS's around just for Excel compatibility.

phatch wrote:Battery life has been stellar. The newest version of Excel does a lot better than the previous.
I think Neo's right though, in that you should see what Windows 8 does.

Thanks for the Excel feedback. Perhaps a trip to the Apple store and a chat with the people there will be able to shed a little more light on Excel compatibility with the current versions. I'll definitely wait until Windows 8 is out before I buy, well, at least if it hits the market in the next month or two.

jrsjr wrote:Rob, I feel like I am just a couple steps ahead of you down this same path. I got my son a MacBook Pro with a disk drive last Christmas (he loves it) and I am getting my wife a MacBook Pro with a solid state drive (SSD) later this month.
The reason I am waiting to buy my wife's MacBook Pro is that the new Mac OS (Mountain Lion) is slated to come out in July (July 25 is the hot rumor). I am just waiting to get a machine with Mountain Lion already installed.
We have decided to get the non-Retina MacBook Pro and upgrade to the smallest (128GB) solid-state drive in the hope that it will be stone reliable for the life of the machine. However, 128GB would be a little small if she were going to work with a lot of video. In that case, I might choose the larger non-SSD drive to save money and get more storage space.
Good luck!

I think I should just sit back awhile and let you be the guinea pig.

I did read that if you buy a system now, you get a free OS system upgrade when it's out, but then again, I'm not in that big of a hurry.
I'm thinking if I go the Mac route, I'll definitely go with the 256GB SSD. To move up to the 512GB is an additional $500. If I need the extra storage for videos or pics, I'll go the USB drive route. Thanks for the input.

Rob

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:30 am

ericalm wrote:Are you doing Pro-level stuff? What software will you be using? Aperture is unnecessary for most people. Even as a pro, I use Bridge, which comes with Adobe Creative Suite. iMovie is cheaper than Premiere Elements, a bit easier to use but may not have all of the same features.

Every editor I know has complaints about FCP X. I'm not sure if it's bad or just because the interface was totally redone. Many are sticking with the previous version.

I don't do much video, but am often running Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator and Bridge at the same time without issues. Crashes? Rare. Software may crash on occasion, but it's pretty unusual for the OS to crash or freeze.

I'm definitely not doing Pro-level stuff. Strictly amateur. In some cases I'd hope slightly advanced amateur, but most would disagree.

An earlier post also mentioned iMovie and that will likely be all I need. As for Bridge, I wasn't aware of that up to now, but I'll definitely check it out. Your comments on the relative stability of the OS are consistent with what the techies at work are saying. Thanks for the reply.

jonlink wrote:One day I finally told them I'd only help them if they had Macs. They all switched. The thing is, they've only needed my help a handful of times since (4-5 years and counting).

I think you just sold me!

I am so tired of helping out relatives and friends with their 'puter' problems.

jonlink wrote:In my experience there is a small learning curve, made smaller if you have some technical proficiency.

That's what I'd hoped to hear.

jonlink wrote: Even though neotrotsky implied that Apple has bad customer service, I've never experienced that. In fact, I had an iMac that developed a (very slight) band of extra brightness on the bottom of the screen after two years. They replaced the computer with the newest version at no cost to me. I had an iPod Touch (now stolen ) that had a bright spot in the center of the screen and the guy at the Apple store just asked me if it was backed up before replacing it. The truth is that Apple is consistently rated best for customer service.

That's very similar to the feedback I received at work today. Even those that are on the "other side" felt the Apple support was solid.

jonlink wrote: If you are totally satisfied with your experience on a windows computer, stick with it. But it seems like you aren't. Go to the Apple store and try to do some stuff. Even better, if you can swing it, borrow a friends computer for a day or three and see how things work out for you.

I can't say I'm unhappy with Windows, but perhaps more intrigued by some of the Mac features and potential capabilities. And sometimes it's just fun to try different things ... as long as those new things don't prove to be too painful, or expensive.

Rob

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:38 am

I've had really bad luck with iMovie, mine crashes a lot and it's just hard to work with if you're used to timeline editing like FCP or Vegas where you sync all the clips and turn on/off the channels you want. It's more like actually editing analog film where you have to cut and paste clips and trim the ends. I know they've changed how it works back and forth in the last couple versions, but I'm pretty sure I have the current one and I don't like it. It has what it calls a "timeline" but it's still a cut-and-paste linear editor, not a 'multitrack' editor.

Or maybe I'm just using it wrong, or maybe my specific installation has problems.

We do a lot of video stuff at work and my coworker that does all the editing swears by Sony Vegas on PC. (Rumor has it Sony is releasing Vegas for Mac soon) He hates Final Cut Pro (old and new), and he also hates Premiere.

That said, he much prefers macs in general, so he just runs vegas on a windows emulator on his mac, ha.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:52 am

TVB wrote:I've owned both Windows and Mac computers since the 80s, I use both kinds personally, and I support both of them professionally. They each have points in their favor and against, and I'd be happy to have a private discussion with anyone who wants an experienced and fair viewpoint about them.

I'd like to hear what you have to say and benefit from your past experiences. It seems that things are calm enough here to post, but if you feel more comfortable, you can PM or email me at [email protected]

illnoise wrote:I'd just say if you have years of experience, and gigabytes of PC files and software, the transition might be difficult, expensive, and frustrating. I think that would be the case with any major switch from one set of hardware/software to another. From what I've seen Mac makes it pretty easy, but there will definitely be software you'll need to buy and files you'll need to convert and stuff like that.

And I agree that the upcoming windows update looks very VERY promising, and while it appears to be a more radical change than most big Windows updates, it seems like they've simplified the upgrade paths and kept a link to 'the old way' to help you acclimate, so it may be worth holding out until after that to see how it pans out.

I'm am concerned about the transitional pains and costs ... I already don't like, and procrastinate, just moving things over to a new laptop with the same OS.

But again, their are potential Mac features/functions that might make it worth it.

Southerner wrote:Charged or not, a lot of good experience has been shared here.

I agree and I certainly appreciate people the time and effort to respond.

Syd wrote:And admitting all of Windows faults, though many of my users have, I have never experienced the regular, fatal failures that are reported to plague Windows. This means to me that many of the problems Windows users complain about (and iFanboys quote without direct knowledge) are self inflicted.

Find the OS that does what you want done, practice safe computing, and enjoy (or at least use) your computer for years to come. Can't we all just get along?

Honestly, I've never experienced Windows OS instability either. And up until a year and a half ago, we were still running XP on the front end of all of our process control systems. Over 300 machines in total.

Again, in general, I'm not looking at a Mac because I'm unhappy with Windows (more like I just don't like it as much as I used to ... kind of like a former girlfriend).

gitsum79 wrote:Microsoft is just too vulnerable to virus/malware/spyware. It just gets worse as time goes on, there no way your anti-virus software can even begin to keep up.

You have three choices:

1) Get a Macintosh (which can cost a few extra bucks)

2) Get an android tablet or iPad (still not 100% functionality of a Mac or PC, but close)

3) Install a good Linux distro on your PC. (dual boot if you need to use specific Windows software, but only use the internet with Linux!)

Well, I'm close to being there with you on the malware issue. As I said before, even though I believe my system is well protected, I've been the victim of 2 nasty virus infections in the last 8 months.

As for option 2, actually I purchased an IPad a little over a year ago. I just about had forgotten about it, because ... my wife who oppose the purchase, basically has commandeered the device and I really haven't use it much since.

As for Linux, I've investigated that as an option. Is that really a feasible way to go?

Rob

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:18 am

jmazza wrote:Rob- I'll echo some of Eric's comments about Final Cut Pro X. Essentially in this new version they made FCP X work more like iMovie. Why they did this no one really knows. This made it literally unusable for professional editors.
However, if you are familiar with iMovie as I am, it's made the transition to FCP X much easier. But it will be very different than Premiere and the old FCP will not run reliably on the current Apple OS.

I have much less experience with image editing software (Photoshop, etc) but there is a really popular app called Pixelmator that seems to be at least a competitor for Photoshop Elements for a very low price. I use it on my machine and while I'm certain I'm using about 15% of its power, it's pretty impressive.

For your Excel and Powerpoint usage, if you go Mac I'd recommend their iWork apps (Numbers and Keynote). They are both fairly cross-compatible and Keynote for one provides in my opinion, much better presentations. It's what Steve Jobs had Apple create for his famous keynotes when Powerpoint wasn't getting it done. I have all my Office documents set to open in their respective iWork counterparts and love it.

As for general opinion, I have been a Mac user essentially my whole computing life. I don't disparage Windows or Windows users at all but I have had great experiences with Apple and I enjoy the benevolent-capitalist-authoritarianism that Bb talked about because it generally keeps me from spending my computer time fixing problems and instead I get to do my work. I know that a responsible Windows user can have the same experience I do, though.

As for reliability I've owned probably 5 Mac laptops from old Powerbooks to iBooks to MacBooks to MacBook Pro. Only one has given me significant problems to the point I wasn't very happy with it. I've always experienced great Apple support but, still, it was a drag. It was an Apple refurbished machine (which almost all of mine have been) and that may or may not have contributed.

Thanks for taking the time for your informative post. I'll have to take a closer look at it, but I believe iMovie will fill me needs. Pixelmator is also now on my list of things to check out. If it's close to Elements, that should work. As for Numbers, will it import Excel files with all (or most) of the functionality (e.g., macros, conditional formatting)? I'm looking to work at home on Excel files created at work, and basically haul them back and forth.

SoCalScooter wrote: Do you NEED a macbook pro? Don't count out the Air for the things you're looking at using it for.
You could get a pretty decked out new Macbook Air for $1,600 - might save you a few $ over the pro... refurb from last year will be ~25% cheaper.
Gizmodo review:
http://gizmodo.com/5923184/macbook-air- ... lar-people
You can do gaming and photo and video editing on the MacBook Air as well... Here's an interesting blog post on using Final Cut Pro to get a feeling on the user experience (using last year's model Air):

You know, I hadn't even thought about the Air. I'll check it out as well when I head to the Apple Store. I'm not sure of the differences between the Air and the MB Pro, but I'll assume there might be processor and port differences. Thanks for adding another option.

amy wrote:The only beautiful white object I love (just a little bit) more than my Buddy is my Mac.
I'm a long term Mac user. They are expensive but they LAST.
Don't let PC users scare you off. Apples are easy-peasey-lemon-squeezy to use once you understand a couple of basics.

Thanks! Are you in the advertising "jingle" profession?

Hwarang wrote:Wow,
This thread is already filled with fun. I'll just add a simple vote to the mix:

My logic about when to spend the bling on a higher price-point item is this: Do you use it every day? If so, buy good quality. This applies for things like clothing, computers, coffee & scooters ... go ahead and skimp on stuff that barely affects you.

Go premium for the stuff that matters most. Even for random joe users who don't do anything work related with their computer, it's pretty safe to say that the computer is a very important tool.

In terms of differences, learning curve and compatibility ... well that's not an issue anymore. OSX and Windows actually operate in a very similar manner. It's just a few shortcut keys and whatnot that's different. Programs are all cross-compatible, especially the MS Office suite.

Haters on both sides should be ignored. Listen to level voices that don't spew vitriol.

I agree with premium prices, at times, being worth it. And in this case, my concern isn't with the initial purchase price but more so with the longer term transitional costs (learning curves, redundant software costs. compatibilities, etc.). Some of those concerns have been put to rest.
As far as the haters, I tend to ignore the dogmatic, close-minded types. There are obviously pro's/con's each way and most of these machines and OS's are quality products. I'm just looking for some opinions that might help me decide if this is a good fit for me.
Thanks for the well thought out response.

Rob

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:17 pm

So, I took the advice of many and hit the Apple Store yesterday. First I was surprised how crowded the store was and how many sales reps were on the floor. No wonder their stock has done so well.

Anyway, I did like the feel of the MacBook and some of the features that are/will be available. I like the ease of syncing and sharing info with our other Apple products (iPad, iPhone, iPod). And also, although it points to my lazy side, the upcoming voice recognition and dictation capabilities appeal to me. I've been impressed with this feature on my iPhone (more to the point, the accuracy) and not having to try to type on that small iPhone keyboard. I'm fairly quick on the keyboard, but talking is so much easier. Not to say that the Windows systems won't soon be offering something close.

OSX seems to be intuitive, so that shouldn't be an issue.

The retina screen was very impressive, but I still don't think it's worth the incremental investment to me.

I did look at the Air as someone had suggested. I didn't check it out for all that long, but will have to go back and look harder at it. It might be all I need, but I still don't have a great feel for the differences.

The person I was talking to did seem to hesitate some when the topic of Excel stability and compatibility came up. He suggested Numbers as an option, which likely won't work for me, so I still do have that concern.

They also talked about dual boot capabilities, with Windows as the 2nd option. I'm going to have to take a harder look at that, mostly because I've never heard on anyone going that route on the Mac. On a SSD I would imagine the Window OS footprint alone might make that infeasible. I think OSX takes up about 1 GB while Windows is substantially more. Although, for as infrequently as I'd expect to have to boot up Windows (why buy a Mac otherwise), a USB drive might be an option.

Anyway, a lot of like about the Mac and some of my concerns still remain. Damn, this fence is getting to be uncomfortable.

Rob

spr0k3t · Post by **spr0k3t** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:28 pm

Rob wrote: I think OSX takes up about 1 GB while Windows is substantially more. Although, for as infrequently as I'd expect to have to boot up Windows (why buy a Mac otherwise), a USB drive might be an option.

Actually it is closer to 12GB after all the updates and no additional software other than what is on the release DVD. There's a lot of hidden system files you don't see when viewing the drive from a mac. You have to use something like Linux which has support to see and use the proprietary file system.

I'm curious though, have you not tried Linux lately? I know a ton of on the fence people who won't purchase crapple products due to their over-pricing, but when they use a modern Linux on their existing computer... they jump all over it. Is there a specific reason why you must have a mac? The only good thing a mac is really for is media editing... for everything else there are tons cheaper options.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:38 pm

Rob wrote: The person I was talking to did seem to hesitate some when the topic of Excel stability and compatibility came up. He suggested Numbers as an option, which likely won't work for me, so I still do have that concern.

They also talked about dual boot capabilities, with Windows as the 2nd option. I'm going to have to take a harder look at that, mostly because I've never heard on anyone going that route on the Mac. On a SSD I would imagine the Window OS footprint alone might make that infeasible. I think OSX takes up about 1 GB while Windows is substantially more. Although, for as infrequently as I'd expect to have to boot up Windows (why buy a Mac otherwise), a USB drive might be an option.

I forgot to reply to your Excel questions. I'm FAR from a power user so I have no idea about the deep features of Excel and whether they exist in either Numbers or Office 2011 (the current Mac version of Office). I have heard that Office 2011 was a very solid upgrade and put the two Office platforms on a more even playing field.

I actually do know people who own MacBooks and solely use Windows on them. It's odd to me as most of what I love about a Mac is the OS but it is and can be done!

scootavaran · Post by **scootavaran** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:07 pm

Lol sorry guys just couldn't resist.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/njos57IJf-0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:36 pm

Rob wrote:So, I took the advice of many and hit the Apple Store yesterday. First I was surprised how crowded the store was and how many sales reps were on the floor. No wonder their stock has done so well.

Anyway, I did like the feel of the MacBook and some of the features that are/will be available. I like the ease of syncing and sharing info with our other Apple products (iPad, iPhone, iPod). And also, although it points to my lazy side, the upcoming voice recognition and dictation capabilities appeal to me. I've been impressed with this feature on my iPhone (more to the point, the accuracy) and not having to try to type on that small iPhone keyboard. I'm fairly quick on the keyboard, but talking is so much easier. Not to say that the Windows systems won't soon be offering something close.

OSX seems to be intuitive, so that shouldn't be an issue.

The retina screen was very impressive, but I still don't think it's worth the incremental investment to me.

I did look at the Air as someone had suggested. I didn't check it out for all that long, but will have to go back and look harder at it. It might be all I need, but I still don't have a great feel for the differences.

The person I was talking to did seem to hesitate some when the topic of Excel stability and compatibility came up. He suggested Numbers as an option, which likely won't work for me, so I still do have that concern.

They also talked about dual boot capabilities, with Windows as the 2nd option. I'm going to have to take a harder look at that, mostly because I've never heard on anyone going that route on the Mac. On a SSD I would imagine the Window OS footprint alone might make that infeasible. I think OSX takes up about 1 GB while Windows is substantially more. Although, for as infrequently as I'd expect to have to boot up Windows (why buy a Mac otherwise), a USB drive might be an option.

Anyway, a lot of like about the Mac and some of my concerns still remain. Damn, this fence is getting to be uncomfortable.

Rob

If you are looking at paying an "apple tax" for hardware just to run Windows on it, have you actually taken a look at the high-end offerings in Microsoft? Check out some of the Sony Vaios and the Lenovo business grade laptops and I think you will be surprised to find out that the EXACT same components found in a MacBook Pro are in these machines. And, many have steel, aluminum or tungsten chassis as well.

Fargo Rollin · Post by **Fargo Rollin** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:12 am

Rob wrote:They also talked about dual boot capabilities, with Windows as the 2nd option. I'm going to have to take a harder look at that, mostly because I've never heard on anyone going that route on the Mac. On a SSD I would imagine the Window OS footprint alone might make that infeasible. I think OSX takes up about 1 GB while Windows is substantially more. Although, for as infrequently as I'd expect to have to boot up Windows (why buy a Mac otherwise), a USB drive might be an option.

I use Bootcamp to dual boot windows on my MacBook. Bootcamp comes installed on MacBook's and it's just a simple program that partitions and installs Windows. I can confirm it takes up about 12GB of space on the drive. I created a 30GB partition on my 320GB harddrive, haven't missed those 30 GB's yet.
My friend had an extra copy of Windows 7 so I'm running Windows free of charge, kind of nice. I did it for kicks and giggles mostly, I run some older windows games every now and then. Even if your Windows harddrive partition gets all sorts of messed up on your MacBook, it won't affect any part of your Mac partition as I understand it. You can always remove the Windows partition and add it back to the Mac side if it turns out to not be what you thought it was.

Hwarang · Post by **Hwarang** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:53 pm

Chiming in, my MBP runs Windows via Parallels. I don't have a real opinion about Parallels. It's a program that I don't use, I just use it to get to another program. Probably network/IT guys have a better opinion on which one is easier to set up and whatnot.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:34 pm

it depends on use I would say. I apologize as I couldn't read all the previous posts, but IT is what I do...

If you don't want to learn, then you can get a winders machine for 1/2 price I'm sure. it also makes for cheaper upgrades, etc.

However Macs are really reliable, though if you have a hardware problem outside of the warranty, you might as well buy another.

solid state drives are really great, just small in capacity. So if you need more than say, 120gb of space, be prepared to have an external.

Also to consider: what other machines are in the house? if you have a mac, it doesn't always play well with winders, though this is changing.

I would discount Windows 8 for now. I dont mind MS, and won't bash them, but I've yet to see an OS roll out and be useful before 6-9 months after actual release.

scubadoobie · Post by **scubadoobie** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:19 pm

My office computer is a Dell PC running Windows 7 and I have no choice in that arrangement. I use a Mac at home as that's my personal preference. I've been using desktop computers at work since the late 70s and used a Mac for the 1st time in 1993 when going back to graduate school. In 19 years, I've bought two apple desktops (SE30 & IMac) and laptop (MacBok Pro). My personal choice doesn't have anything to do with "trendy" or being an Apple "snob", it's a simple preference in (my experience over the years) ease of use, reliability and customer support, when needed.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:49 pm

jmazza wrote:I forgot to reply to your Excel questions. I'm FAR from a power user so I have no idea about the deep features of Excel and whether they exist in either Numbers or Office 2011 (the current Mac version of Office). I have heard that Office 2011 was a very solid upgrade and put the two Office platforms on a more even playing field.
I actually do know people who own MacBooks and solely use Windows on them. It's odd to me as most of what I love about a Mac is the OS but it is and can be done!

If I go Mac, I'll likely try Office 2011 and then have the dual boot Windows option as a backup. I agree on buying a Mac then primarily using the Windows OS. Might as well just stay with what I have. But it would be nice to have the Windows option if needed.

neotrotsky wrote:If you are looking at paying an "apple tax" for hardware just to run Windows on it, have you actually taken a look at the high-end offerings in Microsoft? Check out some of the Sony Vaios and the Lenovo business grade laptops and I think you will be surprised to find out that the EXACT same components found in a MacBook Pro are in these machines. And, many have steel, aluminum or tungsten chassis as well.

I agree, it's not worth the price solely to use the Apple hardware, and that's not my intention. I'm just looking for a Windows contingency if needed.
I don't have any practical experience with the Sonys, but I will keep that in mind as a hardware option. I've honestly grown somewhat disenchanted with Dell and more so with HP.

Fargo Rollin wrote:I use Bootcamp to dual boot windows on my MacBook. Bootcamp comes installed on MacBook's and it's just a simple program that partitions and installs Windows. I can confirm it takes up about 12GB of space on the drive. I created a 30GB partition on my 320GB harddrive, haven't missed those 30 GB's yet.

Bootcamp is what the sales rep was mentioning. It looks to be easy enough to setup. The 30 GB partition might be more significant if I go with the SSD through, especially since the jump to a 512 GB SSD drive is more bucks than I want to go. I'm not sure if the dual boot option can work in conjunction with a USB drive. I'll have to check that out.

Hwarang wrote:Chiming in, my MBP runs Windows via Parallels. I don't have a real opinion about Parallels. It's a program that I don't use, I just use it to get to another program. Probably network/IT guys have a better opinion on which one is easier to set up and whatnot.

Thanks, I'll ask around about Parallels as well.

scubadoobie wrote:My office computer is a Dell PC running Windows 7 and I have no choice in that arrangement. I use a Mac at home as that's my personal preference. I've been using desktop computers at work since the late 70s and used a Mac for the 1st time in 1993 when going back to graduate school. In 19 years, I've bought two apple desktops (SE30 & IMac) and laptop (MacBok Pro). My personal choice doesn't have anything to do with "trendy" or being an Apple "snob", it's a simple preference in (my experience over the years) ease of use, reliability and customer support, when needed.

Thanks. I'm definitely looking for opinions on the things you mentioned.

Again, thanks to all for taking the time to post and for keeping things civil enough to prevent the dreaded subject LOCK.

I think I have enough to get me going and consider before a possible jump to the other side. I'm likely 2 or 3 months away from purchasing a new system. Either way I'll let you know how it all turned out.

Rob

Modern Buddy

NSR: MacBook Pro

NSR: MacBook Pro

Re: NSR: MacBook Pro

Re: NSR: MacBook Pro

Re: NSR: MacBook Pro