The more I think about it, it occurs to me that maybe I've been thinking about motorbike safety from the wrong angle, safety gear. Maybe I should have been thinking about it as a disease. Is there a way to "inoculate" us against unsafe driving by automobile drivers (our main source of danger)? Maybe there is! Taking a page from the CDC manual, maybe there is a way to confer "herd immunity" on all of us. If every automobile driver knew that every motorbike were carrying a video camera that would record them being the cause of our accidents, maybe they would become afraid of us. There's nothing like the fear of knowing that you are going to lose everything in court after a jury views a nice clear videotape of your guilt. That fear might just spread, especially, as I say, after news of huge lawsuit losses spread through the general populace. It's not nice, but it's an that might cause drivers to start seeing us.
I think you're on to something jrsjr. It would take some time for all the cagers to clue in, but the group think thing could work! And at the very least we could count on whole-hearted support from manufacturers of video cameras who stand to sell a lot of cameras.
Skootz Kabootz wrote:...at the very least we could count on whole-hearted support from manufacturers of video cameras who stand to sell a lot of cameras.
Dang, Skootz, I like the way you think! So, the camera guys pay to run a banner ad on ModernXXXXX.com. Ka-Ching! We click on the ad. Our fearless leaders make money on the click. Ka-Ching! We buy the cameras. Ka-Ching! The camera guys give a discount for ModernXXXXX members. Ka-Ching! Lawyers take a couple idiot bad car drivers to court with video and clean them out. Ka-Ching! Ka-Ching! Word gets around. Lawyers start running banner ads on ModernXXXXX. Ka-Ching! A bunch of bad drivers get sued and lose. Ka-Ching! Word gets out into the wild that hitting a motorbike is going to get you your butt sued off. Suddenly even the dimmest drivers are afraid to hit a scooter, resulting in that herd immunity thing. That is easily the most evil plan ever hatched on a scooter forum.
Maybe member of Modern sees the popularity of cameras, and designs an inexpensive mock up of said cameras, that don't actually work, but look the part. Still striking the collective fear in to drivers and keeping said members of modernxxxx safe.
Ka-ching
"Hey You, yeah, all you'se thoughts, specially you, creepy wierd one in the corner, Screw you guys, I'm going for a ride..."
It's a good idea to always ride with a friend... when you can't use the buddy system, a good high quality camera doesn't hurt either way. In the case reference posted in the OP, it paid off quite nicely it sounds.
I started riding with a camera lately. I picked a Contour 1080 on Woot for some change not too long back. I've managed to capture a few interesting videos (mildly interesting) and it does give a slight sense of security, should someone pull a bone-head move. I don't think it's a catch-all by any means, but I think it can certainly help.
Lostmycage wrote:I started riding with a camera lately. I picked a Contour 1080 on Woot for some change not too long back. I've managed to capture a few interesting videos (mildly interesting) and it does give a slight sense of security, should someone pull a bone-head move. I don't think it's a catch-all by any means, but I think it can certainly help.
Do you think it would help if the cameras themselves were a bright color? So they would help serve as a reminder, "Giant Lawsuit Ahead!"
I made a thread when Woot was selling an action camera. I've seen it for sale two or three times since then. When I see it up again, I'll bump this thread.
I have to disagree with this one. If ya want cameras everywhere, go to the UK. As it is, cities are using them to generate revenue, not make driving any "safer".
As for getting evidence for court, don't forget that in many, many crashes the rider carries some blame as to the cause. We'd all be better off riding more defensively and letting auto drivers do what they're gonna do and checking our ego before we swing a leg over (or through).
I don't want cameras all over the place so I can be partially right after the fact. Geez, can't even pick your nose in public anymore without some security force seeing you.
siobhan wrote:... Geez, can't even pick your nose in public anymore without some security force seeing you.
Now I know why I hide in my basement
"When your mouth is yapping your arms stop flapping, get to work" - a quote from my father R.I.P..
always start with the simple, it may end up costing you little to nothing
siobhan wrote:I have to disagree with this one. If ya want cameras everywhere, go to the UK. As it is, cities are using them to generate revenue, not make driving any "safer".
That's a fair criticism. I'm not sure if the statistics back that thought, but I do have personal experience with one camera in Athens, Georgia. They set it up and folks complained, but they also posted a big ol' sign that reminds you that the camera is watching you at that intersection. Folks are so paranoid that they warned other folks about it and now pretty much everybody is careful at that particular light. That effect is exactly the kind of thing that I'm hoping for. I'm not married to this idea (and I certainly get your objection), but I'm wondering if the potential upside might outweigh the potential downside... Thanks for the feedback!
Lostmycage wrote:I started riding with a camera lately. I picked a Contour 1080 on Woot for some change not too long back. I've managed to capture a few interesting videos (mildly interesting) and it does give a slight sense of security, should someone pull a bone-head move. I don't think it's a catch-all by any means, but I think it can certainly help.
that . . . looks like a good camera! can you post some sample vids? and where do you have it mounted? i might have to look into this . . .
Everybody assumes cop cars have cameras in them. I have just as many close calls in my cop car as I do in my personal car. When somebody is not paying attention the camera is not going to make a difference because they don't know they are there.
Back when I did have a camera in my car I found it only made people behave after I told them they were on camera. On my scooter I don't want to get that close to them!
Everybody assumes cop cars have cameras in them. I have just as many close calls in my cop car as I do in my personal car.
Really?!? I can't argue, because you would know, but I find that hard to believe. I know I'm sure careful when there's a cop car anywhere in sight. Again, you would know and I have to defer to you on this.
Other than a siren and flashing lights (neither allowed on civilian vehicles), what do you suggest? I'm really curious.
This idea intrigues me, and it could have merit... eventually.
My only negative thought is that, with the current plan that reacts to accidents with the proof on our side - this kinda means that we're planning on our people being involved in accidents in order to eventually be safer.
Statistically, I know it's gonna happen, but maybe an alternative is all of us wearing some sort of obnoxious vest with "Camera on Board" written all over it.
I will say that the thought has me shopping for cameras, though.
The truth is that there is not a lot you can do to make people see you when they are not paying attention. It is why they don't see scooters, motorcycles, or my patrol car with its flashing lights and sirens. I have stories of people not seeing me when running lights and sirens in everything from the typical crown vic cop car, an F250, on up to the armored SWAT vehicle (a Cadillac VT150 for those who know about such things).
The things that I would recommend to keep yourself safe are to ride as defensively as possible, ride within your comfort zone, always have and escape route, and don't speed. Wearing hi viz stuff, and good safety gear comes in a close second.
Lostmycage wrote:. . . it does give a slight sense of security, should someone pull a bone-head move. I don't think it's a catch-all by any means, but I think it can certainly help.
Agreed.
If you want to know where a road leads, ask someone on their way back.
It's a good idea but it's not one to rely on to increase safety. What it does do is give you possible recourse against hit-and-run drivers as well as dangerous drivers who threaten riders on the road. That's not a bad thing to have IMHO.
Robert Wayne Henderson (May 16, 1932 - July 28, 2009).
Given the average driver's ignorance of scooters, their right to be on the road, etc. I'm not sure that this will do much in the way of prevention. No one seems to care that there are often dozens of witnesses around when they pull their shenanigans.
Most cagers think they're good, attentive drivers, even as they're texting or swerving into my lane without looking. The malicious ones—those who consciously pull some crap on us because we're on little scooters—make up a small percentage of the bad drivers out there. They're also the least likely to give a crap.
The same effort to conduct a massive awareness campaign to let drivers know of the cameras could be put into a general "watch out for scooters," etc. awareness campaign. I'm still not sure of the efficacy of such things. There have been massive campaigns and laws for cell use and texting while driving but the practices are still rampant.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
I don't like the idea either, it just seems like another distraction from riding safely and only minimally useful in practice. It's like the horn conundrum, as soon as you have a really loud horn, you're out looking for an excuse to use it and thinking about using your horn instead of thinking about what happens if the horn doesn't stop the driver.
When my dad was teaching me to drive, and I'd almost get hit because someone else was an idiot, I'd say "But I was right," and he'd say "doesn't matter if you're right if you're dead."
The "if everyone had one, it'd be a deterrent" argument is maybe true, but everybody doesn't have one, and I don't see it happening.
As much as we complain about drivers, a very VERY large percentage of the motorcyclists and scooterists I see on the road don't seem to care much about their own safety or proper riding skills or traffic laws, so I think it's hypocritical to blame drivers for all our problems, and it's not surprising they don't take two-wheelers seriously. IMHO we, and the powersports industry (and AMA and ABATE) needs to stop blaming everyone but ourselves for safety concerns and start changing people's opinions and habits by setting a good example. We can all do better.
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
When I'm on the scoot, I'm packing, and if anyone starts making some threatening moves, I pull the gat and wave it over my helmet a couple a times, that usually sets things straight.
Thanks for all the responses. This is a difficult problem which defies general solution and always has, in large part because (as illnoise reminds me) we are frequently our own worst enemies. For those who prefer not to be their own worst enemy but still eschew the obvious safety solution (a nice safe modern car), there is that dynamic balance between what is practical, what looks cool, what is affordable, what is exciting, what is legal and so on. If you think hard enough about it, it goes to the heart of why folks ride. My misplaced enthusiasm for the camera idea was the result of me not thinking hard enough about it, I guess. Live and learn.
There's nothing like the fear of knowing that you are going to lose everything in court after a jury views a nice clear videotape of your guilt. That fear might just spread, especially, as I say, after news of huge lawsuit losses spread through the general populace. It's not nice, but it's an 
that might cause drivers to start seeing us.
