endorsements

[Drum Pro]

Why do most states have a "M2" 49cc or less and a class "M" for above (here in California) or an "L" endorsement for a 149cc or less and a "M" endorsement for above (illinoise)? Or what ever it is in your state. IMO it's stupid! I understand that the handling varys differently from bike to bike, but the basic mechanics/opperation of any bike is the same...(don't give me too much stick for this one)...

[Stormswift]

Don't know about other States. Maryland will be requiring moped permits and stickers for under 50cc scooters as of October 1st plus insurance ( which resulted in massive unloading of any legal and illegal 50cc scooters on Craiglist).
For anything over we need motorcycle license out here.

[Drum Pro]

It was more of a rant on why the need for different endorsements. why not just one and be done with it....

[JohnKiniston]

Do you want someone who has only ridden and tested on a 125cc bike to go hop on a 1.5 litre motorcycle and go tearing around?

Commercial vehicles have graduated licensing too, I cant use my drivers license to drive a Tractor Trailer after all.

[Edwub]

Do you want someone who has only ridden and tested on a 125cc bike to go hop on a 1.5 litre motorcycle and go tearing around?

Commercial vehicles have graduated licensing too, I cant use my drivers license to drive a Tractor Trailer after all.

My motorcycle license was achieved on my 50cc Honda Metro...which could barely hit 35mph with me on it. The minute I walked away from the test, the state of California was fine with me tearing around on a 1.5 liter motorcycle

[JohnKiniston]

Huh, Here in Arizona if you take the test on a 125 or smaller your supposed to get a Class J restricting you to 125cc's or less.

I say supposed because I took my test on a Elite 80 and got a Class M.

[Christophers]

Do you want someone who has only ridden and tested on a 125cc bike to go hop on a 1.5 litre motorcycle and go tearing around?

Commercial vehicles have graduated licensing too, I cant use my drivers license to drive a Tractor Trailer after all.

My motorcycle license was achieved on my 50cc Honda Metro...which could barely hit 35mph with me on it. The minute I walked away from the test, the state of California was fine with me tearing around on a 1.5 liter motorcycle :)

This is exactly what I did. Passed the CA DMV test on a 49cc Honda Metro and then immediately started tearing around on an 1100cc motorcycle. :-)

[Drum Pro]

For commercial, I understand.

[phatch]

Yep. Compare it to passing the test in a Mini Cooper, then firing up the double-wide and mowing down scooters in the 'burbs.

[MPZ]

I agree-If there are going to be separate classes of licenses,they should more closely reflect the type of bike or scoot the licensee is entitled to operate.Here in Illinois, for licensing purposes,the state feels there is a huge difference between operating a Buddy 125 and a Buddy 150, and no difference between operating a Buddy 150 and a Harley Electra-Glide. Go figure.

[az_slynch]

I agree-If there are going to be separate classes of licenses,they should more closely reflect the type of bike or scoot the licensee is entitled to operate.Here in Illinois, for licensing purposes,the state feels there is a huge difference between operating a Buddy 125 and a Buddy 150, and no difference between operating a Buddy 150 and a Harley Electra-Glide. Go figure.

Hey, those Harley guys are gonna need to borrow that Buddy 150 to pass the test without having their sweet ride topple over on them during some of the maneuvers.

[spodgorski]

MPZ wrote:
I agree-If there are going to be separate classes of licenses,they should more closely reflect the type of bike or scoot the licensee is entitled to operate.Here in Illinois, for licensing purposes,the state feels there is a huge difference between operating a Buddy 125 and a Buddy 150, and no difference between operating a Buddy 150 and a Harley Electra-Glide. Go figure.




In Illinois, you can operate a Buddy 150 with a class L endorsement. It's a 149.9 cc.

[TVB]

Why do most states have a "M2" 49cc or less and a class "M" for above (here in California) or an "L" endorsement for a 149cc or less and a "M" endorsement for above (illinoise)? Or what ever it is in your state. IMO it's stupid! I understand that the handling varys differently from bike to bike, but the basic mechanics/opperation of any bike is the same...(don't give me too much stick for this one)...

I wasn't aware that "most states" did this. From what I read, the most common requirements are either A) you need an endorsement for anything over 50cc, or B) you need an endorsement for anything with an engine. A few states have different classes of endorsements, as you describe.

The reason many states don't require an endorsement for small-displacement bikes is because they didn't want to get into the business of regulating bicycles with engines attached to them. The reasoning behind a special class of license for them (where those exist) is the same: a Honda Metro is a very different beast from a Harley Road King or a Kawasaki Ninja.

What's happened since then is that manufacturers have figured out that they can sell low-power motorcycles as "mopeds", and bypass some red tape, so the distinction that lawmakers tried to make doesn't really work as intended. In some places, a lower-class endorsement was added to "fix" that. Now, you can argue that they've drawn the line incorrectly, or in the wrong place (you'll get no argument from me that my Buddy 50 is really a "motorcycle", despite the "moped" sticker on the back of it, and I'd grumble but go take the motorcycle test next weekend if they required it), but having two different classes of vehicle with two different requirements for riding them isn't all that complicated, or irrational.

[Wild Handyman]

Even crazier, pass your regular drivers license test in a Honda Fit or Mini Cooper and you are legal to drive a 45 foot motorhome across the country.

[Drum Pro]

Even crazier, pass your regular drivers license test in a Honda Fit or Mini Cooper and you are legal to drive a 45 foot motorhome across the country.

Ahh the inconsistancies.... And when I looked at your avatar, it was all the more funnier...

[Lokky]

Why do most states have a "M2" 49cc or less and a class "M" for above (here in California) or an "L" endorsement for a 149cc or less and a "M" endorsement for above (illinoise)? Or what ever it is in your state. IMO it's stupid! I understand that the handling varys differently from bike to bike, but the basic mechanics/opperation of any bike is the same...(don't give me too much stick for this one)...

Back in the civilized world we have tiered motorcycle licenses, 50cc, 125cc, 250, 650, and so on... you actually gotta work your way up from the 125cc too so you can't do the test on a 125 and then go out and buy a liter bike~

[Drum Pro]

Back in the civilized world we have tiered motorcycle licenses, 50cc, 125cc, 250, 650, and so on... you actually gotta work your way up from the 125cc too so you can't do the test on a 125 and then go out and buy a liter bike~

Yeah I've been to Europe several times and lived in the UK for 2 years. Although a tier system probably makes you a better rider, to me it's more of a money making scam.

[Throwback7R]

Why do most states have a "M2" 49cc or less and a class "M" for above (here in California) or an "L" endorsement for a 149cc or less and a "M" endorsement for above (illinoise)? Or what ever it is in your state. IMO it's stupid! I understand that the handling varys differently from bike to bike, but the basic mechanics/opperation of any bike is the same...(don't give me too much stick for this one)...

I wasn't aware that "most states" did this. From what I read, the most common requirements are either A) you need an endorsement for anything over 50cc, or B) you need an endorsement for anything with an engine. A few states have different classes of endorsements, as you describe.

The reason many states don't require an endorsement for small-displacement bikes is because they didn't want to get into the business of regulating bicycles with engines attached to them. The reasoning behind a special class of license for them (where those exist) is the same: a Honda Metro is a very different beast from a Harley Road King or a Kawasaki Ninja.

What's happened since then is that manufacturers have figured out that they can sell low-power motorcycles as "mopeds", and bypass some red tape, so the distinction that lawmakers tried to make doesn't really work as intended. In some places, a lower-class endorsement was added to "fix" that. Now, you can argue that they've drawn the line incorrectly, or in the wrong place (you'll get no argument from me that my Buddy 50 is really a "motorcycle", despite the "moped" sticker on the back of it, and I'd grumble but go take the motorcycle test next weekend if they required it), but having two different classes of vehicle with two different requirements for riding them isn't all that complicated, or irrational.

IN IL the plates are different between the 125 " Blue letters and the 150 Buddy "red letters "

The Blue letters on the plate mean it is a L motorcycle
and red means it is a M motorcycle .

It all matters is what is on the title not what is in reality

[ericalm]

There are a lot of reasons for the varying levels of endorsements in states, but as with all things having to do with the legal codes, they don't always make sense when viewed at face value and there are political and economic forces behind why things are the way they are.

(Let's try not to get into verboten discussion of politics and political theory here because this is a topic many are curious about.)

Laws evolve over time and are seldom the result of a single, comprehensive effort to create sensible regulations in a specific area. This means that bits and pieces of them are changed over the years and sometimes we wind up with something that, when we look at the overview, doesn't seem to make much sense.

Even in the state of CA, where our licensing requirements are fairly straightforward (if it generates more than 2hp and goes over 30mph, you need an M1 "full" motorcycle license), many riders are confused by the existence of two levels, especially since M2 specifies "motorized scooter" (which is actually a kick scooter like a Razor with an engine).

It is ridiculous that after passing a simple series of tests on one vehicle, someone can go out and hop on a vehicle 10-15X its size and take to the public roads. The problem is the solutions: tiered testing and licensing.

Having a number of levels can create bureaucratic, regulatory and enforcement issues and wind up costing the states money.

The powersports industry, of course, wants as little licensing, registration and insurance regulations as possible, even if that may not be in the best interest of public safety. Various industry groups devote funds to fighting additional regulation. (Again, this is simple fact; let's not get into a political debate here.)

There aren't reliable figures (that I've been able to find) on how licensing requirements for smaller (i.e., less expensive) scoots affect sales, but that's one of the huge arguments against requiring licensing for 49cc-range scooters.

The other issue is that tiered licensing may become a deterrent for getting any license at all. This is another one that's hard to pin because the percentage of unlicensed riders in any state at a given time is pretty tough to determine. What is known is that those who are licensed are less likely to be in crashes and, in particular, fatal crashes. There are a lot of factors affecting that, including age and the general disposition/behaviors of those more likely to simply ride without a license. (Some of the literature claims that the knowledge and skills required to get a license is the determinant, but that's a pretty simplified view.)

[Throwback7R]

I really do not find that much different between my buddy the Girls buddy 125 and the 4 motorcycles 250,650,750 "air cooled" and 750 liquid cooled in the garage.

[still shifting]

The motorcycle safety course here in NM offered honda rebels as the largest bike to test on. R

[Dooglas]

It was more of a rant on why the need for different endorsements. why not just one and be done with it....

Well, the basic answer is because each state develops their own registration and licensing requirements (states rights and all that). The part that puzzles me is that some states have virtually no proficiency, registration, or insurance requirements for small scooters. Seems to me that it is one thing to be inconsistent, and quite another to be negligent. (how's that for a rant )

[Lotrat]

What qualifies someone to ride a 50cc scoot or a liter bike? Is it the test? The 2 states I have taken DMV tests in were a joke and have little real world application. I have never run into a series of obstacles on the road that I needed to slowly zigzag through. I've never had to ride in a tight circle while keeping my tire inside the lines on or off the road. I have seen many riders that have poor skills and really should be practicing somewhere other than the freeway or busy urban streets. I would rather share the road with a skilled unlicensed rider than an unskilled licensed rider. The responsibility should be on the rider to know what they can handle, but people aren't like that. Many new riders go and buy a scoot or bike they can't handle and are foolish enough to kill themselves on it. Some people need rules to not be stupid. Others can hop on any bike they want and manage to not kill themselves. We are all held to the lowest common denominator. If you think the rules are silly just know they were written for the silly people we see everyday on the roads.

[TVB]

Well, the basic answer is because each state develops their own registration and licensing requirements (states rights and all that). The part that puzzles me is that some states have virtually no proficiency, registration, or insurance requirements for small scooters. Seems to me that it is one thing to be inconsistent, and quite another to be negligent. (how's that for a rant )

I'm not arguing for or against it here, but: It's an extension of the "states' rights" argument, taken to the individual level. (There's a minority school of political thought that would extend that lack of licensing and registration to include bigger vehicles as well.)

[ohiotj]

The non-standardization is kind of annoying. Here in Ohio, pretty much anything that doesn't have pedals is a motorcycle, and you still have to register a moped, but in Kentucky (and I think Indiana, unless they've changed), sub-50cc bikes don't require a license or tags. What it means to me, is whenever I see a used Ruckus/Buddy 50/Zuma on craiglist, I automatically cross it off the list if its from IN or KY, since no one there seems to apply for or keep their title, which is needed in Ohio.

[illnoise]

You're fooling yourself if you think a scooter or moped is inherently more safe than a sportbike. The truck coming at you doesn't care what your displacement is.

I'm kinda for stepped licensing because it would theoretically force people to prove they can ride responsibly and educate themselves before they're allowed to ride a bigger bike. But I'd settle for mandatory MSF training, at least.

Also, they could pay for statewide mandatory MSF training by selling tickets to watch the classes. I'd pay money to see showoff manly-men bragging about all their experience and their hog or hyabusa, then crashing the lender 250 Nighthawk five times on the first day, while the humble scooterists who are there to learn do just fine.

Bb.

[JohnKiniston]

Oh man, That'd be fun to watch.

I really should do the MSF some day myself.

[wschmechel]

So how's that gonna work with the states when I have my M license from WI and I move or rent a bike in another state? I don't have to re-take my M endorsement. Don't the states have an agreement that if you have achieved M status, you're good to go.

Bottom line is whomever has taken the time to get their M endorsement is going to be more educated (and hopefully a more capable rider) than someone who hasn't achieved the endorsement.

In WI you need an M endorsement for anything bigger than 50cc. The local technical college has now split their class offerings to scooters & motorcycles which I think is a smart thing. This is the first year in which it is occurring. But at the end you still are earning your M endorsement. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future the state will separate a scooter endorsement vs. a motorcycle endorsement. But with maxi scoots, I don't know how much the cc of the engine will come into play either.

Meeh, the system doesn't seem broke, so why fix it?