What's the difference between a trickle charger and a tender

avonpirate · Post by **avonpirate** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:06 pm

When I was a windsurfing rat living in Maui I drove a dodge Dart w/ a slant 6, push button start. Loved the ride but the alternator was failing so I plugged it into a trickle charger at night and after I drove across the island to work in Kihea. I thought that if I wasn't attentive I could burn out or overcharge the battery with the trickle charger , so I was very mindful with each plug-in.

Now for the scoot, I have a battery tender. Is there a diffence between a tender and a trickle charger? When I pull the battery, as I put the scoot into storage, can I overcharge the battery by leaving it on the tender for 3 months??

Sometmes I feel dumber than a bag of rocks, but then: there is not dumb question. Thanks for your comments.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:37 pm

An earlier generation of "trickle chargers" simply put out a small current but did not have electronic controls. That meant they kept on charging at a low rate until disconnected. The current generation of battery tenders have smart circuitry that reduces and then turns off the charging circuit as the battery reaches full charge so that the battery is not damaged. You want one of these "smart" chargers. Fortunately there are many of them out there and they are not particularly expensive.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:32 pm

And arguably the most popular of them for the Buddy is the Battery Tender Jr.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:38 pm

Yep. got mine with my Buddy and I couldn't be happier. with the kickstart you don't have to have it, but it comes in handy since I have multiple scoots. I just tend one when I am not planning on driving it for a few days, so the battery is nice and fresh the next time I go to use it.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:48 pm

And best of all, the Battery Tender Junior, when coupled with the optional 12v 'cigarette lighter' plug, can charge the Buddy's battery through the 12v accessory jack rather than having to lift the rubber mat and connect up to the battery, or run pigtail wires from the battery underneath the scoot. No stooping required.

The Junior is current-limited to charge at a maximum of .75A, which is below the threshold of the 1A fuse on that 12v socket. Bigger chargers may blow this fuse, as they allow the battery to charge > 2A.

avonpirate · Post by **avonpirate** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:56 pm

That's what I have. Battery Tender Jr. Can I leave it on for 3 months????

A friend (he drives vintage Italian MC's) suggested that I put it on an electric timer. ( He might have a 'vintage' trickle charger as well.

)

Eric thought that the timer was not necessary. And don't worry, it won't be on concrete. Eric warned me about that as well. Concrete sucks the life out of batteries just like a wet suit will suck the tan off you.

It will be tucked away safely in my closet.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:21 pm

avonpirate wrote:That's what I have. Battery Tender Jr. Can I leave it on for 3 months????

A friend (he drives vintage Italian MC's) suggested that I put it on an electric timer. ( He might have a 'vintage' trickle charger as well. )

Eric thought that the timer was not necessary. And don't worry, it won't be on concrete. Eric warned me about that as well. Concrete sucks the life out of batteries just like a wet suit will suck the tan off you.

It will be tucked away safely in my closet.

I use a tender plugged into a timer......1 hour a day.
I have had tenders go nuts and overcharge/destroy batteries.
Using the timer eliminates the potental....the battery never gets hot enouph to be harmed.

Rob

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:44 pm

avonpirate wrote:That's what I have. Battery Tender Jr. Can I leave it on for 3 months????

Yep, but you should still start it up once a month or so, and ideally, ride it once a month to keep all the moving parts moving. Down here in Denver, that's very easy to do but maybe not up in Avon.

DanielPerrin · Post by **DanielPerrin** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:12 pm

PeteH wrote:The Junior is current-limited to charge at a maximum of .75A, which is below the threshold of the 1A fuse on that 12v socket. Bigger chargers may blow this fuse, as they allow the battery to charge > 2A.

I did some rationalizing that the wiring gauge used in the lighter circuit was capable of carrying more than 2A. I replaced my 1A fuse with a 2A fuse, and my 1.5A charger hasn't had a problem since. This is just my thought process, so I might someday fry my whole electrical system, but it's worked well so far for me. You have to decide if you can rationalize the same way that I did.

I also had the 1A fuse blow before I replaced it. Now before I start charging I plug in a little LED light to double check that the fuse hasn't blown. That way I don't charge overnight only to find that the circuit isn't connected to the battery, and hasn't accomplished anything overnight.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:37 pm

Yeah, I figured, when looking at the wiring, that it was robust enough, but I was only referring to the 'stock' fusing. I have a 2A in there now myself, as it's quite difficult to find a 1A at most auto parts stores. I can't remember exactly how I blew the original.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:19 pm

avonpirate wrote:That's what I have. Battery Tender Jr. Can I leave it on for 3 months????

A friend (he drives vintage Italian MC's) suggested that I put it on an electric timer. ( He might have a 'vintage' trickle charger as well. )

Eric thought that the timer was not necessary. And don't worry, it won't be on concrete. Eric warned me about that as well. Concrete sucks the life out of batteries just like a wet suit will suck the tan off you.

It will be tucked away safely in my closet.

I use tenders on the scoot, both MCs and two ATVs. I leave then on all winter with no problem. Although I do try to get out and start them and let them run awhile every two or three weeks.

Rob

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:32 pm

I pop the batteries out of both scoots, bring them inside, and leave them on my workbench all winter, plugged into a battery tender jr. It only takes a couple minutes to pop them back in when I want to go ride.

agrogod · Post by **agrogod** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:22 am

Stitch wrote:I pop the batteries out of both scoots, bring them inside, and leave them on my workbench all winter, plugged into a battery tender jr. It only takes a couple minutes to pop them back in when I want to go ride.

+1

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:28 pm

avonpirate wrote:... And don't worry, it won't be on concrete. Eric warned me about that as well. Concrete sucks the life out of batteries just like a wet suit will suck the tan off you...

This has not been true since battery shells were made of glass or rubber. It's just urban legend now.

rentonhighlander · Post by **rentonhighlander** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:22 pm

Lotrat is correct. There are a number of urban legends that while they used to be true are no longer relavent. Oil is a topic where urban legends still pops up quite a bit.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:39 pm

It ain't the concrete - it's probably storing the battery on a large heat-sinking surface. In your garage's still air, meaning somewhat warmed by the outdoor sun, the air temperature is higher than the floor temperature. If you keep the battery on the concrete floor, on the other hand, that heat is going to get sucked away by the contact with the floor. Actually, it cuts both ways, depending on which (air or floor) has the higher temperature. Nature will keep trying to equalize things, and the floor's got a lot more mass.

I use the opposite to great effect: thawing a frozen steak on my granite countertop. It would thaw even faster on an old-fashioned copper countertop. If I had one of those, I could afford a Vespa (or two or three).

walke2jd · Post by **walke2jd** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:07 pm

Not sure if this deserves its own thread...

I left my keys on and the battery went completly dead. A week later I noticed and through a Battery Tender Jr. on the battery. It has been on for about 2 days and the battery is still dead.

Is there anything I can do to revive this battery, or is it a lost cause? I have a full size Battery Tender too; not sure if that would have better luck?

dsmith65 · Post by **dsmith65** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:20 pm

I left my keys in like that too, it took about 3 days to recharge.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:39 pm

Well, just as another data point, last winter I left my scoot off-the-Tender for several weeks, as we got an extended cold/wet/snowy spell and I wasn't thinking. Unfortunately, I left my Gorilla alarm system hooked up, so the load, though small, hammered the battery flat. No charging could resurrect it.

Lesson learned: put it on the Battery Tender. If you can't do that, get rid of any current loads and/or disconnect the battery and bring it indoors (like I should have done from the beginning).

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:52 am

PeteH wrote:It ain't the concrete - it's probably storing the battery on a large heat-sinking surface. In your garage's still air, meaning somewhat warmed by the outdoor sun, the air temperature is higher than the floor temperature. If you keep the battery on the concrete floor, on the other hand, that heat is going to get sucked away by the contact with the floor. Actually, it cuts both ways, depending on which (air or floor) has the higher temperature. Nature will keep trying to equalize things, and the floor's got a lot more mass.

I use the opposite to great effect: thawing a frozen steak on my granite countertop. It would thaw even faster on an old-fashioned copper countertop. If I had one of those, I could afford a Vespa (or two or three).

Ok, that's just plain crazy talk. Cold temps or cold concrete will not harm a battery. Cold temps actually slow down the chemical reaction going on inside the battery and extend it's life. Heat kills a battery because higher temps speed up the chemical reaction of the acid eating away at the plates inside. Since cold temps slow down the chemical reaction inside the battery it not able to deliver cranking power. That's why batteries are given a CCA (cold cranking amp) rating. Cold cranking amps (CCA) is a measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0 ° F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts.

walke2jd wrote:Not sure if this deserves its own thread...

I left my keys on and the battery went completly dead. A week later I noticed and through a Battery Tender Jr. on the battery. It has been on for about 2 days and the battery is still dead.

Is there anything I can do to revive this battery, or is it a lost cause? I have a full size Battery Tender too; not sure if that would have better luck?

Batteries don't just die in fact most are murdered. Discharges below 10V damages a battery. Not recharging a battery immediately after a discharge damages a battery. Draining a battery to 0V and leaving it there for a week killed your battery. Time for a new one.

rentonhighlander · Post by **rentonhighlander** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:30 pm

Starting to feel like Lotrat's sidekick here but he/she's right again. I didn't want to be the one to call out the voodoo mumbo jumbo science talk but I'm glad Lotrat did.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:54 pm

I don't know whether the concrete-floor thing is right or wrong, I'm just saying it's not innately the concrete material that's causing the anecdotal voodoo described above; I was only describing what will happen temperature-wise to a battery left on a cold garage floor over the winter, vs. one left sitting on a workbench. Whether it kills the battery or not, I couldn't say, but I tend to agree with your CCA observation _and_ with the observation that loading a battery down to 0v will kill it (personal experience).

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:53 pm

It's not the cold that kills it, it's the lack of maintenance. Batteries are happy when they are kept fully charged all the time. A discharged battery kept in a cold garage will live longer than one kept in a hot garage. Automotive batteries sold in warmer southern climates have a weaker electrolyte solution than batteries sold in the north to slow down the chemical reaction which is accelerated by heat. My dad always said that a battery will freeze if it's kept on concrete in the winter. It's almost impossible to freeze a fully charged battery unless you live where it gets to -77*F. A discharged battery will freeze like a block of ice at 20*F. Again, it's the lack of maintenance that kills it.

When it's really cold out the chemical reaction is so slow that a battery doesn't preform. CCA is based at 0*F. Performance drops the colder it gets. Many will assume the battery is low or dead when it's just too cold to get the juices flowing. Combine that with thick motor oil and everyone blames the battery when it's really the weather. People shouldn't live in places that get so cold... IMO.

avonpirate · Post by **avonpirate** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:38 pm

So, Lotrat:

Automotive batteries sold in warmer southern climates have a weaker electrolyte solution than batteries sold in the north to slow down the chemical reaction which is accelerated by heat.

Does this mean that when I buy from the internet that I should purchase from someone in a climate similiar to mine? or does climate affect a >universal eletrolyte mix< solution .
If what I think you are saying is true, then manufacturers should sell not only by size but climate as well.

Just asking..... have I misunderstood you?

My battery will be stored this winter not on a

'stinking'(joke) work bench but rather be diplayed in my closet, charged daily for an hour. AND, scoot is being stored in a heated 6 car garage belongng to a client of mine. If it's stored in a heated garage, which is warmer than my 650 sq ft condo where I don't turn on the heat, ( the scoot's neighbors will be a 2011 Gullwing Mercedes, a 1970 Jag, a 1974 Triumph, an Audi and a OJSimpson white box) ...... is starting and riding the scoot once a month still an issue???

Thnx for comments. I am learning so much from a stellar group of 'quality' experts.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:03 am

avonpirate wrote:is starting and riding the scoot once a month still an issue???

If you don't, you need to winterize it- lots of threads here about doing that. Only you can decide which is easier for you to do! Down here at 5420 feet I will still ride some throughout the winter so it's easier for me to just make sure I start it every week or so. Up where you are you aren't likely going to have a shot to do that so it's probably better to winterize it and leave it there without starting.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:29 pm

avonpirate wrote:So, Lotrat:
Automotive batteries sold in warmer southern climates have a weaker electrolyte solution than batteries sold in the north to slow down the chemical reaction which is accelerated by heat.
Does this mean that when I buy from the internet that I should purchase from someone in a climate similiar to mine? or does climate affect a >universal eletrolyte mix< solution .
If what I think you are saying is true, then manufacturers should sell not only by size but climate as well.

Just asking..... have I misunderstood you?

They are sold by climate. You just don't know it. The north/south deal only applies to maintenance free automotive batteries. These are too heavy and filled with free electrolyte and are typically not shipped. You are forced to buy one in a store which will stock the correct battery for your climate.

I pulled this off the sears site. Notice the average life of a battery is longer in cold climates.

Their design for hot climates is to use fewer thicker plates in the battery. The thicker plates will last longer in a warmer climate where the chemical reaction inside is accelerated due to heat, but this reduces performance. If you compare the CCA rating of a northern battery to a southern battery of the same size you'll find that the southern battery has less CCA, but CCA isn't an issue in the warm climates. The southern battery is built to survive the heat. For every increase of 18°F above 77°F, the battery's life is cut in half due to grid corrosion. The solution is to either make thicker plates or use an electrolyte with less acid content. There is no magic in batteries. It's just lead and acid. Hope this helps.

avonpirate · Post by **avonpirate** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:02 pm

>Lotrat

They are sold by climate. You just don't know it.

Wow ... what great documentation!!!! That's how they last via geography.

The battery, the previous owner of my scoot installed in May, was a Parts City battery and I happen to know that they warehouse in Carson City Nevada. That battery started doing loop de loos when it started to get cold here. Since I'm a Tahoe girl, I know that Carson's climate is Meditteranean............ Vail's hot is CC's cool.

This is a yes / no question. Do I check location of where I am ordering a battery from, and match climate??

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:09 am

No, not for scooter batteries.