Quarantsei update

[Southerner]

http://www.scooterfile.com/sf-feature/v ... ls-emerge/

I guess the original discussion of this was getting old but at least Vespa is keeping close to the original design concept, which is a rare thing.

Cue the discussion on its impracticality. It still looks cool.

I think it's important to notice that Vespa has gone back to an air-cooled engine for the sake of simplicity and lower costs at a time when everybody else has gone to liquid cooling. Yet it still meets strict air quality standards. That's no mean achievement.

Impractical or not, if the price is reasonable, I think there's room in the market for it.

[Drum Pro]

I'm still wondering about the price and if/when we will even get it in the States.

[Syd]

http://www.scooterfile.com/sf-feature/v ... ls-emerge/

I guess the original discussion of this was getting old but at least Vespa is keeping close to the original design concept, which is a rare thing.

Cue the discussion on its impracticality. It still looks cool.

I think it's important to notice that Vespa has gone back to an air-cooled engine for the sake of simplicity and lower costs at a time when everybody else has gone to liquid cooling. Yet it still meets strict air quality standards. That's no mean achievement.

Impractical or not, if the price is reasonable, I think there's room in the market for it.

I think it is very good looking, and would very much consider one - as a second scoot. Second not because of its impracticable nature (read: storage) as for its suitability for longer rides.

Storage is not all it's made out to be, after all.

[Dooglas]

There is a very extensive discussion on this subject over on the MV website. It is worth reading for those that are especially interested in this scooter.


http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic107163

[Southerner]

Hmmmm. they think it's gonna be more expensive than current models. It would seem that its greater mechanical simplicity would lower the price.

[neotrotsky]

Hmmmm. they think it's gonna be more expensive than current models. It would seem that its greater mechanical simplicity would lower the price.

This is the *new* Vespa we're talking about: It will be far more expensive, limited if released at all in the US, product placed with only the most beautiful of movie stars and international singing sensations and if you can afford it, parts will take 4 weeks to 4 months to get.

Sorry... the modern Vespa is no longer the people's bike. They went for the glitz, and that's why Honda and Kymco are spanking them in international sales, and LML is happily there to take up the vintage charm slack.

[Dooglas]

They went for the glitz, and that's why Honda and Kymco are spanking them in international sales, and LML is happily there to take up the vintage charm slack.

Well, I'll buy your point on the international market, but if we are talking US here - neither Honda scooters, nor Kymco. nor LML/Stella are spanking anybody's butt here, particularly Piaggio's .

[ericalm]

They went for the glitz, and that's why Honda and Kymco are spanking them in international sales, and LML is happily there to take up the vintage charm slack.

Well, I'll buy your point on the international market, but if we are talking US here - neither Honda scooters, nor Kymco. nor LML/Stella are spanking anybody's butt here, particularly Piaggio's .

Honda actually does spank Piaggio's butt in the US. Vespa itself is probably #4 or so in the country. Hard to know exactly these days because N. American sales were so small, they no longer get reported separately in their sales reports; they're just tacked on to Europe.

At last report, ALL of the combined Piaggio Group sales for North America account for less than 1.5% of their global revenue and volume. The US doesn't really factor much into their planning of new models.

[Southerner]

I was hoping that PIaggio was trying to at least produce one line of scoots that would be closer to being competitive with Asian scoots. Boutique buyers aren't going to give a fig whether their new fashion accessory has a radiator or not, assuming they know it has one in the first place.

However, arguing FOR the position that this is a specialty item is the fact that manufacturers don't usually let bargain offerings outshine their flagships stylewise.

I don't know.

[Lokky]

I was hoping that PIaggio was trying to at least produce one line of scoots that would be closer to being competitive with Asian scoots.

Uhm, Piaggio sells a whole line of plastic body scooters...

[neotrotsky]

I was hoping that PIaggio was trying to at least produce one line of scoots that would be closer to being competitive with Asian scoots.

Uhm, Piaggio sells a whole line of plastic body scooters...

And by the time you try to buy one, you're well above the price of a Honda PCX just to get a basic, air cooled and carb'ed 150. It's true that Piaggio doesn't give two craps about the US market (and neither does Honda in the way of scooters), but globally Vespa just isn't what it used to be. Sure, their branding makes them a "luxury" product and gives them all sorts of an ego, but go around the world and you'll find more Japanese and Taiwanese bikes being bought new than Piaggio.

And, for Piaggio to compete with Asian scooters, they would have to price a lot more competitive. Sure, the MSRP on the Fly 150 is comparable in the US, but by the time the Vespa "Boutiques" add their fees, you've gone from $2700 to nearly $4k. Granted I can only speak for the US when it comes to a new scooter since I haven't bought a bike in the UK since I lived there, but in America Kymco and Genuine are pretty much setting the standard for affordable quality bikes. I was *this* close to buying a Fly 150 until the highway robbery of "fees" were tacked on. I ended up going Kymco because they included the fees in the MSRP of the bike. Just taxes, plates and off I went.

[Dooglas]

Honda actually does spank Piaggio's butt in the US. Vespa itself is probably #4 or so in the country.

Honda appears to be reducing their total line of US scooters in the US to 4 models for the 2013 model year. How many units do you suppose they will sell? Scooters are a total afterthought for Honda in the US, and that shows no sign of changing anytime soon. We are darned lucky that we have companies like Piaggio/Vespa and Genuine where scooters are their primary business.

[neotrotsky]

Honda actually does spank Piaggio's butt in the US. Vespa itself is probably #4 or so in the country.

Honda appears to be reducing their total line of US scooters in the US to 4 models for the 2013 model year. How many units do you suppose they will sell? Scooters are a total afterthought for Honda in the US, and that shows no sign of changing anytime soon. We are darned lucky that we have companies like Piaggio/Vespa and Genuine where scooters are their primary business.

I wouldn't call it "lucky" since Piaggio doesn't even seem to find it fit to send at least ONE representative to the largest Vespa rally in the United States. Piaggio didn't have one person from corporate representing the company at Amerivespa this past year. Personally I'm just waiting for them to pull a Suzuki Autos and pull out of the US with little to no notice.

[cdwise]

Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kymco, Sym, I don't recall any of them sending factory reps to Amerivespa. Genuine is the only manufacturer I've seen at both of the Amerivespas I've attended but each Amerivespa had at least one Vespa dealership supporting it. Kymco did have a fairly large presence at Amerivespa 2010 in the group that rode in on Xcitings from their North American headquarters. I've seen more of Kymco at motorcycle shows (where I also saw Piaggio/Vespa represented by dealerships) than at any scooter event.

Vespa, Kymco, Sym and Genuine have all donated scooters for raffles which seems like support to me.

FWIW, the top three scooter brands I see in Houston are Vespas, Buddies and Burgmans. In Colorado - Denver Buddies are the ones I see the most of while up the mountains I see Buddys and Vespas for the small scoots and mostly Burgmans for the large ones. Though I did see a couple of BVs that weren't ours and one or two Silverwings.

I saw my first PCX a couple weeks ago. It is still the only one I've ever seen on the road in Houston but it must be fairly local since I've seen it in the same parking lot twice since then. At least when I go look at scooters at one of the Aprilia or Vespa/Piaggio dealerships and they want to talk to me about scooters. Honda lost interest when I went to look at scooters there, the salesmen just shrugged and pointed to the Honda Met and said that's all we have. Note, the Aprilia dealership is Houston Superbikes and besides the Aprilia scooters they carry Aprilia motorcycles and Ducatis but don't sneer at scooter riders like the Honda dealerships seem to do at least at the 2-3 I've been in.

[jprestonian]

My PCX draws a lot of attention here in Mid-TN... not a lot of them out on the road, here. The only other ones I've seen were back in June at our scooter rally (4th photo down), and they were from... Memphis, I think? The Nashville Honda dealers never had many to start with, AFAIK.

Would love a 946, myself. Purty!
.

[Southerner]

I will be very surprised if the 150 PCX doesn't become at least a relative success in the American market. The Honda name commands a lot of recognition and an association with quality which I believe is deserved. And I don't know about scooters in particular but Honda is definitely paying more attention to smaller bikes in general.

Smaller companies or at least those new to the U.S. market will have to work to build that kind of recognition. With Honda being price-competitive by farming out some of their manufacturing to countries with lower labor rates, they're gonna be tough to beat.

As to Piaggio, even the iconic native Vespa name brand is taking a back seat to Italian-designed Honda scooters in Italy, IIRC.

Which leads me back to the Quarantsei. The recognizable Vespa name allows Piaggio to exceed the price point of other brands but only so much. It would be silly to introduce another, more expensive scooter to their lineup, at least over here. To me, that means that either we won't get it or the price won't exceed their current lineup

[neotrotsky]

I will be very surprised if the 150 PCX doesn't become at least a relative success in the American market. The Honda name commands a lot of recognition and an association with quality which I believe is deserved. And I don't know about scooters in particular but Honda is definitely paying more attention to smaller bikes in general.

Smaller companies or at least those new to the U.S. market will have to work to build that kind of recognition. With Honda being price-competitive by farming out some of their manufacturing to countries with lower labor rates, they're gonna be tough to beat.

As to Piaggio, even the iconic native Vespa name brand is taking a back seat to Italian-designed Honda scooters in Italy, IIRC.

Which leads me back to the Quarantsei. The recognizable Vespa name allows Piaggio to exceed the price point of other brands but only so much. It would be silly to introduce another, more expensive scooter to their lineup, at least over here. To me, that means that either we won't get it or the price won't exceed their current lineup

The PCX seems to be a hit with everyone who sees it. I'll admit I think it's a sharp bike (once you remove that mid-saddle "hump") and the tech behind it is solid. A damn fine bike at a good price. The problem is the same one Honda has had for decades: No drive to market the bike proper. We all know what they think of the scooter market in the US. It's not worth their time in their opinion.

Although, at least in downtown Phoenix and the near-East valley, the bike I've been seeing the most of brand new is the Kymco Agility. I suppose part of it has to do with the moving of the dealership from a scooter shop that had a horrible reputation and bad management to a new shop in Scottsdale where I bought mine. I've seen a new Agility a week pop up at the college I spend most of my time at, with a few more poping up at ASU. There's now a half dozen Agilities at any one time in the parking lot at Phoenix College, and in a town like Phoenix that's saying something. Of course, it's Kymco's aggressive pricing and warranty that is really pushing it. They're edging close to no-name Chinese scooter price territory while providing a quality product.

Vespa on the other hand simply keeps raising the price, lowering the customer service and trying to bank on their name more and more to justify it. While Honda's marketing is one of apathy, Piaggio's is one of arrogance. Genuine and Kymco have moved in to take advantage of that. While the scooter market is tiny compared to the rest of the world, if the economy keeps at it's current pace, they yet may find more and more success as being affordable transportation since new cars are almost unobtainable for many Americans.

[skully93]

Honda and Yamaha really do sell so many more motorcycles and ATV type vehicles that they can afford to just have a minor scooter share here.

The PCX always looked good, and the update should make it even better. However, as solid as they are, it's still cheaper to buy a much larger motorcycle than the PCX, so the market is limited IMHO.

Vespa is like Apple. They know someone will buy it, even if it's a little pricey.

[Dooglas]

Vespa on the other hand simply keeps raising the price, lowering the customer service and trying to bank on their name more and more to justify it. While Honda's marketing is one of apathy, Piaggio's is one of arrogance. Genuine and Kymco have moved in to take advantage of that.

While no one says you need to like Vespas, I think you are a little hard on Piaggio. Vespa is something of a boutique brand and is priced accordingly. For all that, it is a quality product and the line has many satisfied riders. Now, about other Piaggio products. They span the whole range from 50 to 850 (not to mention motorcycles). The Typhoon is a serious attempt to compete with the ChinaScoots in the same way Kymco is trying to do so. And the BV 350 is probably the best scooter in its size and weight range (okay, I'm a fan) - and one of lowest in cost. Right down there with a comparable Kymco. Piaggio is a welcome part of the American scooter scene IMO - as are Kymco and Genuine. Each in a somewhat different way, of course, but all serious about it. The Japanese manufacturers seem to have just thrown in the towel on the American scooter market - and more's the pity.

[neotrotsky]

Vespa on the other hand simply keeps raising the price, lowering the customer service and trying to bank on their name more and more to justify it. While Honda's marketing is one of apathy, Piaggio's is one of arrogance. Genuine and Kymco have moved in to take advantage of that.

While no one says you need to like Vespas, I think you are a little hard on Piaggio. Vespa is something of a boutique brand and is priced accordingly. For all that, it is a quality product and the line has many satisfied riders. Now, about other Piaggio products. They span the whole range from 50 to 850 (not to mention motorcycles). The Typhoon is a serious attempt to compete with the ChinaScoots in the same way Kymco is trying to do so. And the BV 350 is probably the best scooter in its size and weight range (okay, I'm a fan) - and one of lowest in cost. Right down there with a comparable Kymco. Piaggio is a welcome part of the American scooter scene IMO - as are Kymco and Genuine. Each in a somewhat different way, of course, but all serious about it. The Japanese manufacturers seem to have just thrown in the towel on the American scooter market - and more's the pity.

I am actually not being hard enough on Piaggio. As someone who dropped 8 grand out the door on a GTS250ie after all the "fees" and then not two years later had to scrap the entire bike because it would take them 4 MONTHS to get a new engine due to a failed exhaust coupler causing a chain reaction of engine failure (and thanks to some incompetent mechanics), their attitude is "If you don't like it, piss off". They don't care about the US market or it's customers... only it's money, and frankly they don't make enough of it here to satisfy themselves. Their dealership "Boutiques" are clogged with bikes 3-4 years old that have YET to be sold and they're still charging new prices for them. They encourage a profiling "befitting" to their luxury branded image, forgetting that it was by affordable transportation that made them a hit. At least Honda hasn't forgotten where they came from when it comes to knowing what bikes made their money...

Like Apple, the automotive journalists seem obligated to only write the positives about Vespa and blatantly ignore the negatives, else they risk offending the behemoth that is Piaggio (although they carry almost no weight in the US). Yes, they are pretty. Yes, they are "iconic". But, they offer less for your money and, unlike Apple, you don't even get the premium service when you go into the dealerships. As a Modern Vespa owner, I felt quite screwed by the company the entire way. Yes, it was a nice bike... until it broke down. What would be simple to rectify in other bikes is impossible when dealing with Vespa. All told, my experience in dealing with the much more "common" company Kymco has been more satisfying. Parts are always easy to get, the dealerships are accessible and the brand is affordable. Mostly, the bikes aren't particular and are real-world performers. I've found the same to be true of Genuine (although the dealerships we have here in Phoenix aren't the greatest). Their bikes are amazing build for the quality and they do make an effort to see their bikes are supported in the market. Vespa would rather sell Coach leather saddlebags and $25 keychains than affordable bikes, where they originally made their name.

As for the Typhoon being "affordable", check the real-world OTD price on a Typhoon compared to it's competition: The Zuma, Agility and the Ruckus (although the 50cc could hardly be called competition since it's in a different engine class). The Typhoon ends up being one of the most expensive after fees, and the Zuma 125 is frankly a much more substantial bike for the money. Piaggio dealers aren't cheap places, and they have made it clear they intend to stay that way.

[Dooglas]

Piaggio dealers aren't cheap places, and they have made it clear they intend to stay that way.

Perhaps your bad experience with a dealer and a bike is the end of the story for you - and I'm sure not the one to say you didn't come by your opinion honestly. On the other side of the nickel, my experiences have been very different. I have owned four Piaggio-built scooters. All four have been fun rides, reliable, and good resale for the two not now in the garage. My local dealer is a nice guy, and both he and his top service guy have become good friends. He has built up his business by treating people right and is now the largest volume Piaggio/Vespa dealer in the region. I have bought bikes from him for as much as $2000 under msrp and so have others. I don't expect my love affair with Piaggio to end anytime soon - and I was always a serious Honda guy (more scooters please, Honda). Two different riders - two different stories.

[skully93]

Before the train derails on this topic too far:

1) I like the design. if I won the lotto or one of you fine folks could see fit to put one in my stocking this year, I'd drive the heck out of it.

2) chances are it will just be garage pr0n for a while for most us. There's a lot of Vespas here in CO, but most people just got theirs running how they want 'em, I don't see them dropping a ton tomorrow for the new hawtness.

[Southerner]

There is no telling what drives Honda's scooter policy in the U.S. But one thing is for sure: Honda will definitely take market risks. The list of good ideas that didn't sell and the other one, the less-good ideas (DN-01, for example) are too long to list.

The others certainly do no more; Kawasaki doesn't even try.

Back to Piaggio, I guess nobody understands the Italian business mentality. It's so well-known, it's a cliche.

I'm having an uncharacteristic spell of optimism that allows me to hope that this new model will be a back-to-its-roots exercise. The simplified design is a clue. As to the bodywork, I can't see the Italians putting out even a budget scoot that's low on style.

[cdwise]

I have Piaggio, Vespa and Aprilia scoots in 2 different states. Nothing has ever taken 4 months to come in even a full replacement of the speedo, gas guage and exhaust that went out a week before Piaggio shut down for the entire month of August (an Italian thing).

The electrical issue with the Aprilia was the biggest bear and Piaggio worked hard with my Vespa dealer who was trying to fix it. Ended up having to take it to AF1 in Austin to get it resolved (the guy I bought it from had "modified" the system to add a stereo and to run on "regular" instead of premium, stuff I had removed asap) which apparently caused a problem down the line with the alarm system.

So I'm with Douglas on the dealership issue. As for the SH its style is pretty much a rip off of the Aprilia Sports City. Aprilia is owned by Piaggio. The reports I've seen is that the BV 300-350 is the best selling scooter in Italy over every other one. Yes, the bigger wheeled scoots do much better in Italy than the smaller wheeled scoots which are the only ones Vespa makes. Vespa is also a luxury brand. To put it in car terms: Vespa = Cadillac luxury, Piaggio = Chevy workhorse and Aprilia = Pontiac sporty.

According to SIP the 125cc comes with 8,7 kW (11,8 PS) at 8250rpm, the 150cc version has 9,7 kW (13,2 PS) at 8000rpm.Piaggio Germany plans to launche the model in the 2nd quarter of 2013. The new Vespa will supposedly cost round about € 8.000, http://www.sip-scootershop.com/communit ... -2013.aspx

What that means if it comes to the US who knows but if the BMW and other scooter pricing US - EU pricing parallels hold it will be around $8,000 without the ABS.