Classic Scooter

VinylDoctor · Post by **VinylDoctor** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:29 am

a 1960's Cushman Eagle Scooter 2500.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cushman- ... 4d07f1663f

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:42 am

A nice looking Cushman - and sounds like a good deal at $2500.

For those of you interested in the classic Cushmans - Raceway Services in Salem, OR does beautiful Cushman restorations (as well as being one of the best Ural and Enfield dealers around)

http://www.racewayservices.com/raceway/cushman.shtml

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:59 am

I've always wondered what makes the Eagle a scooter instead of a motorcycle.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:30 am

I'd guess it's the little wheels, automatic transmission and built-in luggage rack that flag it as a scooter.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:44 am

I love anything old, but those just never did anything for me... but they look better than a Harley topper

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:33 pm

az_slynch wrote:I'd guess it's the little wheels, automatic transmission and built-in luggage rack that flag it as a scooter.

To me a scooter is a step-through frame where the gas tank is usually under the seat. The Cushman Eagle has the gas tank on top and up front so the rider has to swing his leg up and over the seat to mount the bike. That's a motorcycle to my way of thinking. Hey, Apache Junction is not to far from where I'm wintering here in AZ. I may have to take a run over there and check out that Eagle. In my Subaru Forester that is!

Bill in AZ for the winter
'12 170i Italia "The Olive Pit"

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:17 pm

skipper20 wrote: To me a scooter is a step-through frame where the gas tank is usually under the seat. The Cushman Eagle has the gas tank on top and up front so the rider has to swing his leg up and over the seat to mount the bike. That's a motorcycle to my way of thinking. Hey, Apache Junction is not to far from where I'm wintering here in AZ. I may have to take a run over there and check out that Eagle. In my Subaru Forester that is!

Bill in AZ for the winter
'12 170i Italia "The Olive Pit"

I can think of several scooters that had a top-tank and the engine in the middle. I own one; the Allstate Compact (Puch DS60 "Cheetah"). Other ones that come to mind are the Moto Rumi Formichino, Brockhouse Corgi/Indian Papoose and some racing variants of the old letter-series Lambrettas come to mind. Another weird gas tank was the Fuji Rabbit Superflow S601, which had the tank in the legshield; a feature found in several modern Kymco and SYM scoots.

Frankly, the thing that helps the Cushman Eagle from being branded as a scooter more than tank/engine location is the lack of legshields. I'd group it with the Gladden Products/California Scooter Company "Mustang" as a small motorcycle.

EDIT: Juno M85 had the motor way up front, but the tank was under the seat. My bad.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:41 pm

skipper20 wrote:
az_slynch wrote:I'd guess it's the little wheels, automatic transmission and built-in luggage rack that flag it as a scooter.
To me a scooter is a step-through frame where the gas tank is usually under the seat.

Different people have defined it differently. Scooterness is a combination of traits, and if it has enough of them... someone will call it a "scooter"... and someone else won't.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:54 pm

skipper20 wrote:
az_slynch wrote:I'd guess it's the little wheels, automatic transmission and built-in luggage rack that flag it as a scooter.
To me a scooter is a step-through frame where the gas tank is usually under the seat. The Cushman Eagle has the gas tank on top and up front so the rider has to swing his leg up and over the seat to mount the bike. That's a motorcycle to my way of thinking. Hey, Apache Junction is not to far from where I'm wintering here in AZ. I may have to take a run over there and check out that Eagle. In my Subaru Forester that is!

Bill in AZ for the winter
'12 170i Italia "The Olive Pit"

Out of curiosity, what do you think about Genuine's Blur as being a scooter?

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:06 pm

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards §571.123, S4:

Scooter means a motorcycle that:
(1) Has a platform for the operator’s feet or has integrated footrests, and
(2) Has a step-through architecture, meaning that the part of the vehicle forward of the operator's seat and between the legs of an operator seated in the riding position, is lower in height than the operator’s seat.

FMVSS §571.3:

Motorcycle means a motor vehicle with motive power having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground.

This is something most scooterists don't agree on. Many have arbitrary (to me) qualifiers such as wheel size, swing arm, displacement, type of transmission, etc. Some have an "I know one when I see one" attitude.

I prefer the federal definition, above. The scooter world can be as diverse as the motorcycle world. Why not? I also like that according to this definition, the first motorcycle was, in fact, a scooter.

That said, there have always been exceptions, models that blur the lines and defy definition.

I'm currently test riding a BMW C600. Technically, according to the above, a scooter. In practice, basically an automatic motorcycle.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:10 pm

Edwub wrote:Out of curiosity, what do you think about Genuine's Blur as being a scooter?

Still can step through it, though some leg lifting is in order. Tank in the "floor" has been a repeated element in scooter design; think Helix, Morphous, Ruckus, new Zuma 50F, etc. The motor forms an integral part of the rear suspension (which is pretty darn cool suspension for a scooter). It has a pet carrier! The bodywork offers the rider good weather protection. Small(er) wheels. I think there's enough elements here to make a call: It's a scooter.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:12 pm

I feel relatively safe saying a scooter is any two (or, I guess, could be three) wheeled vehicle with its engine (or motor if electric) and swingarm combined as a single unit.
This means the engine is part of the unsprung weight of the machine.

The Honda 50/90 step through were never called scooters and I don't remember the Allstate Compact 150 being called a scooter.....I think Cushman decided to call itself a scooter but, having no legshields, I consider that a bit of a play on small wheels.
I suppose some of the legshield machines such as the Topper could be labeled a scooter of that era but I think that may have been the way the U.S. market wanted to be seen while avoiding the Motorcycle stigma of that era (IE Born to be Wild).....thanks Hollywood.

Rob

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:19 pm

ericalm wrote:Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards §571.123, S4:
Scooter means a motorcycle that:
(1) Has a platform for the operator’s feet or has integrated footrests, and
(2) Has a step-through architecture, meaning that the part of the vehicle forward of the operator's seat and between the legs of an operator seated in the riding position, is lower in height than the operator’s seat.

Thank you. Part 2 was the quality I was having trouble with. There are a couple of weird scooters that either test or flat-out warp that item (see bikes I mentioned in prior post regarding fuel tank position).

ericalm wrote: I'm currently test riding a BMW C600. Technically, according to the above, a scooter. In practice, basically an automatic motorcycle.

I saw my first one in action in November while visiting Nashville, I had to touble-take, as I first though it was a motorcycle. Saw one in person at Scooter Fiesta a few weeks ago and I was amazed at how big it is. Awesome scoot, but it dwarfs my CB500F.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:36 pm

az_slynch wrote:
ericalm wrote: I'm currently test riding a BMW C600. Technically, according to the above, a scooter. In practice, basically an automatic motorcycle.
I saw my first one in action in November while visiting Nashville, I had to touble-take, as I first though it was a motorcycle. Saw one in person at Scooter Fiesta a few weeks ago and I was amazed at how big it is. Awesome scoot, but it dwarfs my CB500F.

It's not much wider than my Vespa LX, but it's tall. You don't feel the weight when riding, but backing it up takes some muscle!

I'll be pimping a long review in a couple weeks.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:37 pm

Robbie wrote:I feel relatively safe saying a scooter is any two (or, I guess, could be three) wheeled vehicle with its engine (or motor if electric) and swingarm combined as a single unit.
This means the engine is part of the unsprung weight of the machine.

The Honda 50/90 step through were never called scooters and I don't remember the Allstate Compact 150 being called a scooter.....I think Cushman decided to call itself a scooter but, having no legshields, I consider that a bit of a play on small wheels.
I suppose some of the legshield machines such as the Topper could be labeled a scooter of that era but I think that may have been the way the U.S. market wanted to be seen while avoiding the Motorcycle stigma of that era (IE Born to be Wild).....thanks Hollywood.

Rob

The Compact (DS60) is a weird little spud. It is an upgrade from the Puch DS50, which was sold in Europe as a moped. The kicker shaft is essentially a pedal shaft with the pedals omitted and a return spring added. Both machines had a 3-speed manual and both are two-strokes, the only real differences being the exhaust routing and the size of the cylinder bore. The 3-speed would have disqualified it as a moped here, so dressing more like a scooter seems to have been Puch's solution.

There were a few changes to the design in the early half of the 60's that would throw the bike's classification in question. Early DS60's have a hand shifter, while later ones have a foot shifter. Early ones also have a sloping tank that puts it below the seat height. Later ones have a horizontal tank. The frame still dips and there is a gap between the seat and the tank, but the increased tank height muddies the definition. IMO, the good thing about the later models is that the headlight moved from the horncast to the headset.

Another good thing about all Compacts is that they have underseat storage. Only the tiniest of pets need apply.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:58 pm

az_slynch wrote:
Robbie wrote:I feel relatively safe saying a scooter is any two (or, I guess, could be three) wheeled vehicle with its engine (or motor if electric) and swingarm combined as a single unit.
This means the engine is part of the unsprung weight of the machine.

The Honda 50/90 step through were never called scooters and I don't remember the Allstate Compact 150 being called a scooter.....I think Cushman decided to call itself a scooter but, having no legshields, I consider that a bit of a play on small wheels.
I suppose some of the legshield machines such as the Topper could be labeled a scooter of that era but I think that may have been the way the U.S. market wanted to be seen while avoiding the Motorcycle stigma of that era (IE Born to be Wild).....thanks Hollywood.

Rob
The Compact (DS60) is a weird little spud. It is an upgrade from the Puch DS50, which was sold in Europe as a moped. The kicker shaft is essentially a pedal shaft with the pedals omitted and a return spring added. Both machines had a 3-speed manual and both are two-strokes, the only real differences being the exhaust routing and the size of the cylinder bore. The 3-speed would have disqualified it as a moped here, so dressing more like a scooter seems to have been Puch's solution.

There were a few changes to the design in the early half of the 60's that would throw the bike's classification in question. Early DS60's have a hand shifter, while later ones have a foot shifter. Early ones also have a sloping tank that puts it below the seat height. Later ones have a horizontal tank. The frame still dips and there is a gap between the seat and the tank, but the increased tank height muddies the definition. IMO, the good thing about the later models is that the headlight moved from the horncast to the headset.

Another good thing about all Compacts is that they have underseat storage. Only the tiniest of pets need apply.

Good memories,

The second machine I ever rode was a new Compact hand shifter....showing my age here but I think....it was 1963.
First machine I ever rode was also a Allstate (Puch).....it was a conventional appearing motorcycle....might've had 18 inch wheels.
It was also a fan cooled 150 with the twist shift.
I cannot remember if it was a three or four speed.
I think that may have been in 63 or 64 but the most memorable ride and the bike that welded me to the brand was on a new 1964 Honda Super 90.

I even have pictures somewhere of that day.

Ah geeze!
Now that was an example of falling off topic wasn't it?

Rob

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:27 pm

Robbie wrote:I think that may have been in 63 or 64 but the most memorable ride and the bike that welded me to the brand was on a new 1964 Honda Super 90.

I even have pictures somewhere of that day.

Ah geeze!
Now that was an example of falling off topic wasn't it?

Rob

Talk about your six degrees...I have a '64 S90! Technically, it's a Benly 90. It has the little rectangular blinkers, fixed buddy pega ang the 4-speed rotary gearbox. Black and pretty worn-wooking, but it only has 1400-ish miles on it. It's a resto project that I hope to get to if I ever get done fixing broken scooters.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:08 pm

az_slynch wrote:
Robbie wrote:I think that may have been in 63 or 64 but the most memorable ride and the bike that welded me to the brand was on a new 1964 Honda Super 90.

I even have pictures somewhere of that day.

Ah geeze!
Now that was an example of falling off topic wasn't it?

Rob
Talk about your six degrees...I have a '64 S90! Technically, it's a Benly 90. It has the little rectangular blinkers, fixed buddy pega ang the 4-speed rotary gearbox. Black and pretty worn-wooking, but it only has 1400-ish miles on it. It's a resto project that I hope to get to if I ever get done fixing broken scooters.

If you have a Benly 90 it should be a O.H.V. engine.
The S-90 was a O.H.C.

Also, the Benly had a leading link front suspension and the S-90 was a tele-tube.

I stopped by Scooterworks Chicago last week and nosed around the back room a bit.......whadaya know, there was a red Benly 90 hiding in there looking for love......I suspect there are millions of old Japanese bikes hiding against garage back walls throughout America.....they'll come out again....someday.

Rob

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:45 pm

ericalm wrote:
az_slynch wrote:
ericalm wrote: I'm currently test riding a BMW C600. Technically, according to the above, a scooter. In practice, basically an automatic motorcycle.
I saw my first one in action in November while visiting Nashville, I had to touble-take, as I first though it was a motorcycle. Saw one in person at Scooter Fiesta a few weeks ago and I was amazed at how big it is. Awesome scoot, but it dwarfs my CB500F.
It's not much wider than my Vespa LX, but it's tall. You don't feel the weight when riding, but backing it up takes some muscle!

I'll be pimping a long review in a couple weeks.

"Automatic motorcycle" is a definition I have seen on maxi-scooter sites. The Beemers fit that category.

Some maxis are more scooterish than others. For example, the Burgman 400 has its engine conventionally mounted with the swingarm. The B650 has some sort of arrangement where the engine is mounted to the frame and power is transferred by a series of gears. How much like a Vespa this is, I don't know, but it's practically in a category by itself.

I agree on the step-through thing. The only point of confusion being those models with a hump that requires you to step over it.