a few requests to vodoo people and lack in tech library

enzomatic · Post by **enzomatic** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:28 am

I would like to see some info on installing the 161 kit, the 150 head and such in the tech library if anyone took pics and has the time to do the write up. also I think putting some people who have done the kit's reactions to it in a review thread would be great, mmmmmkay, and if you can come in on saturday that would be great too, mmmmmkay.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:38 pm

The ones of us who have done it have been a LITTLE leary of posting instructions in the tech library, as kitting an engine is a bit beyond your average scooter rider's skills.

That being said. I'll be doing the 161 mod to my bike here shortly, and if the general consensus is that its better to have it in there than not, I'll photograph it.

[email protected] · Post by **[email protected]** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:09 pm

cant wait

db · Post by db » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:14 pm

I agree that about having that thread, that would be sweet. Also agree that some people might not have the know, but also may be quick learners. My thing is if their scooter then its their fault if they do something to it and mess it up. No liability on anyone for posting a how to.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:18 pm

Maybe put a warning that the procedure is not for those who lack the necessary skills.

Personally, there are a LOT of procedures that I look at in the Tech library, but more for getting an idea of what my mechanic is charging me for and for considering before I get my heart set on some thing that I know my mechanic will be charging me the going hourly rate for him to do.

It also gives me a HUGE amount of respect for all of you folks with the skills to do that stuff! Wow, I mean, Seriously Wow!

-v

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:23 pm

Kaos wrote:The ones of us who have done it have been a LITTLE leary of posting instructions in the tech library, as kitting an engine is a bit beyond your average scooter rider's skills.

That being said. I'll be doing the 161 mod to my bike here shortly, and if the general consensus is that its better to have it in there than not, I'll photograph it.

I started taken photos and then realized that this isn't something you should do yourself without prior experience, so I opted not to post anything. There are many little variables that if not heeded could end up in catastrophic failure. I felt it was something that would be to difficult to explain on a forum and did not want the responsibility of inspiring someone to ruin there engines.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:25 pm

db wrote:I agree that about having that thread, that would be sweet. Also agree that some people might not have the know, but also may be quick learners. My thing is if their scooter then its their fault if they do something to it and mess it up. No liability on anyone for posting a how to.

Try explaining that to the person who tries installing one and misses a step, or misplaces a bolt, drops the chain or reinstalls the cam 180 degrees off. The first person they're going to blame (LOUDLY) will be the author of the "How-to" post.

I've got a section of FAQs concerning modification and the like, but I'm weary of publishing it. Some people glaze over the small print, disclaimers, etc.

If someone wants to do a write up, by all means post it. I'll take the post and edit in a disclaimer before putting in the FAQ. For the time being, though, I'm leaving that section out.

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:36 pm

Lostmycage wrote:
db wrote:I agree that about having that thread, that would be sweet. Also agree that some people might not have the know, but also may be quick learners. My thing is if their scooter then its their fault if they do something to it and mess it up. No liability on anyone for posting a how to.

Try explaining that to the person who tries installing one and misses a step, or misplaces a bolt, drops the chain or reinstalls the cam 180 degrees off. The first person they're going to blame (LOUDLY) will be the author of the "How-to" post.

I've got a section of FAQs concerning modification and the like, but I'm weary of publishing it. Some people glaze over the small print, disclaimers, etc.

If someone wants to do a write up, by all means post it. I'll take the post and edit in a disclaimer before putting in the FAQ. For the time being, though, I'm leaving that section out.

Exactly! A step by step procedure would not be the hardest to follow. It's just knowing how to check your work and trouble shoot incase something doesn't go as planned.

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:19 pm

I have taken some pictures and will gladly share; I just don’t have that many good pictures.
I personally think the modification is easy to do for anyone that has worked on motors/cars/motorcycles etc; and is/or mechanically incline.
If someone chooses to start a project and finds it over their head, stop, get advice, or have a professional finish it up.
To me, the biggest challenge with the 161cc modification was to optimize it. It is necessary to resize the main jet, new air filter system, and exhaust system, and only then do you realize the full potential of the larger capacity motor. That said tuning is actually easy if you are patient and do one thing at a time and understand the changes made.
Of course a person starting the project should already have an assortment of hand tools, if they don’t already have tools, and a tool box at their place, that in its-self indicates something and most likely that person shouldn’t be starting the project on their own.

enzomatic;
That all said; How can I help?

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:29 pm

rajron wrote:I have taken some pictures and will gladly share; I just don’t have that many good pictures.
I personally think the modification is easy to do for anyone that has worked on motors/cars/motorcycles etc; and is/or mechanically incline.
If someone chooses to start a project and finds it over their head, stop, get advice, or have a professional finish it up.
To me, the biggest challenge with the 161cc modification was to optimize it. It is necessary to resize the main jet, new air filter system, and exhaust system, and only then do you realize the full potential of the larger capacity motor. That said tuning is actually easy if you are patient and do one thing at a time and understand the changes made.
Of course a person starting the project should already have an assortment of hand tools, if they don’t already have tools, and a tool box at their place, that in its-self indicates something and most likely that person shouldn’t be starting the project on their own.

enzomatic;
That all said; How can I help?

Thats a big part of it as well. Its *NOT* just bolt on and go. Its a lot of tuning that you just can't put into a tutorial.

Also what Djelliot and LMC said. No amount of disclaimers are going to do any good when someone screws up. They'll just be upset that the 'simple step by step instructions' didn't work. We REALLY don't want anyone getting the idea that anyone who owns a wrench can do this mod. Its not as simple as that.

For someone with mechanical aptitude, no part of the Buddy engine is complicated. and that sort of person could likely benefit greatly from photos.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:45 pm

Personally I am not experienced enough a mechanic to even consider doing this kind of mod myself. But I would love to read a thread and see pics of how it's done. I love learning more about this kind of stuff.

bgwss · Post by **bgwss** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:19 pm

+1 on just wanting to read a review. I am a Tim Taylor type and know to take things to a mechanic.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:30 pm

I am surprised by the number of people who buy a perfectly good new scoot, and with no prior experience, start doing things to it that they would never consider doing to a used $3,000 car. (Hmm, that sounded a lot more harsh than I intended it to.)

Still, give someone step by step directions and you are going to end up with somebody kitting their Bud in their carport in Phoenix during a windstorm, because, "Well, I couldn't ride during a thunderstorm, now could I?"

It's like cracking somebody's chest open. That's your Buddy's heart down there!

enzomatic · Post by **enzomatic** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:38 pm

I fully understand that none want to feel responsible if someone went out and blew up their scoot, I agree with skootz that most people would just like to see the pretty pictures and maybe get a little more understanding of that thing making all that noise under their butt.
From my personal situation I have some mechanical ability but if I did this project it would be done in a friends garage that has many many years of experience hopping up scoots. This friend also owns a truck and can take my scoot to my mechanic who would love to take my money. (all mute if I'm content after I get the pipe installed).
That being said I still understand hesitation so perhaps this could be treated like someone locking the keys in their pet carrier where it can be shared only through PM and when the sender feels confident that the receiver understands the risks.

I still would love to see reviews from a few people, ideas on improvements, likes, dislikes. Also has anyone with a 150 done the 177 kit?

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:56 pm

Hey DJE, did adding the head make it more complicated? I know you did yours twice.

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:15 pm

jijifer wrote:Hey DJE, did adding the head make it more complicated? I know you did yours twice.

A little bit. The head has a port for an EGR valve that is not in use on this motor in the USA. The stock buddy 125 head is casted in a way that it blocks off the port, but the 150 head is not. I had to plug the hole by tapping it out and inserting a bolt into it and then grinding it flat to the surface. Not to tough. The weird thing is the 125 cylinder is the opposite. It has the EGR port on it but the head casting blocks it off. The kit has no port and the casting where the two meet up doesn't expand far enough to block it off.

The reason I had to do mine twice is that I started with the stock 125 head and then decided that I wanted the 150 head with the bigger intake valve. Well, there is a different gasket that goes between the jug and the case depending on what head you use, so I had to tear it all back down to swap that out. IMHO the 150 head is CLUTCH when doing this mod.

enzomatic · Post by **enzomatic** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:25 pm

djelliott wrote:
jijifer wrote:Hey DJE, did adding the head make it more complicated? I know you did yours twice.
A little bit. The head has a port for an EGR valve that is not in use on this motor in the USA. The stock buddy 125 head is casted in a way that it blocks off the port, but the 150 head is not. I had to plug the hole by tapping it out and inserting a bolt into it and then grinding it flat to the surface. Not to tough. The weird thing is the 125 cylinder is the opposite. It has the EGR port on it but the head casting blocks it off. The kit has no port and the casting where the two meet up doesn't expand far enough to block it off.

The reason I had to do mine twice is that I started with the stock 125 head and then decided that I wanted the 150 head with the bigger intake valve. Well, there is a different gasket that goes between the jug and the case depending on what head you use, so I had to tear it all back down to swap that out. IMHO the 150 head is CLUTCH when doing this mod.

I see that scooterworks has 2 big valve heads for the 150, the 58.9mm and 61mm, did you use one of these and would you run into this problem with either?

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:29 pm

enzomatic wrote:
djelliott wrote:
jijifer wrote:Hey DJE, did adding the head make it more complicated? I know you did yours twice.
A little bit. The head has a port for an EGR valve that is not in use on this motor in the USA. The stock buddy 125 head is casted in a way that it blocks off the port, but the 150 head is not. I had to plug the hole by tapping it out and inserting a bolt into it and then grinding it flat to the surface. Not to tough. The weird thing is the 125 cylinder is the opposite. It has the EGR port on it but the head casting blocks it off. The kit has no port and the casting where the two meet up doesn't expand far enough to block it off.

The reason I had to do mine twice is that I started with the stock 125 head and then decided that I wanted the 150 head with the bigger intake valve. Well, there is a different gasket that goes between the jug and the case depending on what head you use, so I had to tear it all back down to swap that out. IMHO the 150 head is CLUTCH when doing this mod.
I see that scooterworks has 2 big valve heads for the 150, the 58.9mm and 61mm, did you use one of these and would you run into this problem with either?

You have to use the stock head from the Buddy 150 motor. I'm not sure of the part number I just had my dealer order it for me. It is 58.5 though.

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:30 pm

djelliott wrote:
jijifer wrote:Hey DJE, did adding the head make it more complicated? I know you did yours twice.
A little bit. The head has a port for an EGR valve that is not in use on this motor in the USA. The stock buddy 125 head is casted in a way that it blocks off the port, but the 150 head is not. I had to plug the hole by tapping it out and inserting a bolt into it and then grinding it flat to the surface. Not to tough. The weird thing is the 125 cylinder is the opposite. It has the EGR port on it but the head casting blocks it off. The kit has no port and the casting where the two meet up doesn't expand far enough to block it off.

The reason I had to do mine twice is that I started with the stock 125 head and then decided that I wanted the 150 head with the bigger intake valve. Well, there is a different gasket that goes between the jug and the case depending on what head you use, so I had to tear it all back down to swap that out. IMHO the 150 head is CLUTCH when doing this mod.

Yeah, while my shop guy didn't go into why the head was a pain in the butt they did say they really wouldn't recommend a novice trying this as there was some mods to the head itself that needed to be done. Probably as you described. That carb & pipe was bolt on but the added element of the head was the kicker.

Do you have the stock 150 head or did you get the NCY one? Wonder if the NCY would have been different - a better fit.

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:33 pm

jijifer wrote:
djelliott wrote:
jijifer wrote:Hey DJE, did adding the head make it more complicated? I know you did yours twice.
A little bit. The head has a port for an EGR valve that is not in use on this motor in the USA. The stock buddy 125 head is casted in a way that it blocks off the port, but the 150 head is not. I had to plug the hole by tapping it out and inserting a bolt into it and then grinding it flat to the surface. Not to tough. The weird thing is the 125 cylinder is the opposite. It has the EGR port on it but the head casting blocks it off. The kit has no port and the casting where the two meet up doesn't expand far enough to block it off.

The reason I'll had to do mine twice is that I started with the stock 125 head and then decided that I wanted the 150 head with the bigger intake valve. Well, there is a different gasket that goes between the jug and the case depending on what head you use, so I had to tear it all back down to swap that out. IMHO the 150 head is CLUTCH when doing this mod.
Yeah, while my shop guy didn't go into why the head was a pain in the butt they did say they really wouldn't recommend a novice trying this as there was some mods to the head itself that needed to be done. Probably as you described. That carb & pipe was bolt on but the added element of the head was the kicker.

Do you have the stock 150 head or did you get the NCY one? Wonder if the NCY would have been different - a better fit.

Stock 150. It fit's fine with the exception of the EGR port. The problem is the casting on the 161 kit. It should have been designed to block that. I think when they mad the kit, they made it with the 125 head in mind.

Since there's so much interest, I look and see if any of my shots came out good enough just to use to explain some of these things. Not really a tutorial but a summery of the bits and pieces that go into the job.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:38 pm

enzomatic wrote:Also has anyone with a 150 done the 177 kit?

Forget the 177 kit, what about the 183cc kit?

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:33 pm

Kaos wrote:
enzomatic wrote:Also has anyone with a 150 done the 177 kit?
Forget the 177 kit, what about the 183cc kit?

So, Kaos, you volunteering to do a step-by-step tutorial on how to machine the casing?

Be sure to take some good pics!

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:39 pm

Lostmycage wrote:
Kaos wrote:
enzomatic wrote:Also has anyone with a 150 done the 177 kit?
Forget the 177 kit, what about the 183cc kit?

So, Kaos, you volunteering to do a step-by-step tutorial on how to machine the casing?

Be sure to take some good pics!

Heh, don't tempt me. If I didn't have to drill for side-oiling on the 125 I think I'd try it.

vmaxrattler110 · Post by **vmaxrattler110** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:38 pm

Lostmycage wrote:
db wrote:I agree that about having that thread, that would be sweet. Also agree that some people might not have the know, but also may be quick learners. My thing is if their scooter then its their fault if they do something to it and mess it up. No liability on anyone for posting a how to.

Try explaining that to the person who tries installing one and misses a step, or misplaces a bolt, drops the chain or reinstalls the cam 180 degrees off. The first person they're going to blame (LOUDLY) will be the author of the "How-to" post.

I've got a section of FAQs concerning modification and the like, but I'm weary of publishing it. Some people glaze over the small print, disclaimers, etc.

If someone wants to do a write up, by all means post it. I'll take the post and edit in a disclaimer before putting in the FAQ. For the time being, though, I'm leaving that section out.

This forum is full of wimps who don't want Genuine yo succeed,

vmaxrattler110 · Post by **vmaxrattler110** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:45 pm

Lostmycage wrote:
db wrote:I agree that about having that thread, that would be sweet. Also agree that some people might not have the know, but also may be quick learners. My thing is if their scooter then its their fault if they do something to it and mess it up. No liability on anyone for posting a how to.

Try explaining that to the person who tries installing one and misses a step, or misplaces a bolt, drops the chain or reinstalls the cam 180 degrees off. The first person they're going to blame (LOUDLY) will be the author of the "How-to" post.

I've got a section of FAQs concerning modification and the like, but I'm weary of publishing it. Some people glaze over the small print, disclaimers, etc.

If someone wants to do a write up, by all means post it. I'll take the post and edit in a disclaimer before putting in the FAQ. For the time being, though, I'm leaving that section out.

This forum is full of a bunch of wimps who don't want genuine to succeed like zumas have. And as harsh and poorly worded as that is I have to say it.

The Rattler 110 has such little information about it ypu end up having to waste money or tale things apary and possibly ruin things just to figure out a result others already have guidance for.

I'm going to do my best to tell people what I find as I throw money at this in search of the right parts. But even scooterjerks gave up and only list 2 parts for the 110. None of the universal ones etc. Lets work together and share things so others can find different sources for parts and different keywords for searches that'll yield compatible parts.

DeeDee · Post by **DeeDee** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:55 pm

The reason a 110cc, two stroke scooter isn't very popular has nothing to do with this forum.

Well made scooter, but it's a novelty ride at best. Why would anyone want to go through the trouble of getting an endorsement and vehicle registration on a scooter that has so limited use?

Zumas are popular because they rock. Yamaha made the right decision to move the 50f to a 4 stroke in 2012. The last 2 stroke 50cc Honda brought into America was the 2001 elite. Kymco is slowly getting rid of their 50cc two strokes as well.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:59 pm

vmaxrattler110 wrote:
Lostmycage wrote:
db wrote:I agree that about having that thread, that would be sweet. Also agree that some people might not have the know, but also may be quick learners. My thing is if their scooter then its their fault if they do something to it and mess it up. No liability on anyone for posting a how to.

Try explaining that to the person who tries installing one and misses a step, or misplaces a bolt, drops the chain or reinstalls the cam 180 degrees off. The first person they're going to blame (LOUDLY) will be the author of the "How-to" post.

I've got a section of FAQs concerning modification and the like, but I'm weary of publishing it. Some people glaze over the small print, disclaimers, etc.

If someone wants to do a write up, by all means post it. I'll take the post and edit in a disclaimer before putting in the FAQ. For the time being, though, I'm leaving that section out.
This forum is full of a bunch of wimps who don't want genuine to succeed like zumas have. And as harsh and poorly worded as that is I have to say it.

The Rattler 110 has such little information about it ypu end up having to waste money or tale things apary and possibly ruin things just to figure out a result others already have guidance for.

I'm going to do my best to tell people what I find as I throw money at this in search of the right parts. But even scooterjerks gave up and only list 2 parts for the 110. None of the universal ones etc. Lets work together and share things so others can find different sources for parts and different keywords for searches that'll yield compatible parts.

You've posted in the Rattler forum, why didn't you post this there, instead of unearthing this 8 year old thread?

Stick around (if you can) and you'll find that this forum is a great ambassador for Genuine.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:37 am

vmaxrattler110 wrote:
This forum is full of a bunch of wimps who don't want genuine to succeed like zumas have. And as harsh and poorly worded as that is I have to say it.

The Rattler 110 has such little information about it ypu end up having to waste money or tale things apary and possibly ruin things just to figure out a result others already have guidance for.

I'm going to do my best to tell people what I find as I throw money at this in search of the right parts. But even scooterjerks gave up and only list 2 parts for the 110. None of the universal ones etc. Lets work together and share things so others can find different sources for parts and different keywords for searches that'll yield compatible parts.

As a forum member who hacks on scooters, I respectfully request that you pump your brakes on the vitriol. Many scooterists here are good with fuelling, oil changes and tire pressures, but unfamiliar with what lurks under their scooter's cowls. Some of them use it as their sole mode of transportation and can't afford to rip it apart and spend weeks or months sussing out how to make it better, stronger, faster...

The 2T PGO (Genuine) motors aren't exact copies of Zumas. There's documented evidence here that the cranks are slightly different. As a Zuma owner and someone who's worked in a Buddy 50 before, I can tell you that the carb and intake path is completely different. The cylinder kits interchange and there are gearing possibilities for the final drive; plenty of information on that on this forum.

I've been researching mods for a PGO GY6 derivative and found that gear width, shaft lengths and shaft diameters are different than most GY6 derivatives. I've looked at cams and they can be swapped, but I know there are other PGO-specific parts in the mix that don't swap out easily, like the 125cc crankshaft.

With a Rattler 110, you might be able to crib parts from some of the non-US Yamaha 100cc 2Ts like the Aerox, but expect that some machining of parts or compromises in functionality might need to be made.

If you feel so inclined, dig into your bike and document your findings in a thread so that others may learn too.