no brakes while cornering

robtaylor · Post by **robtaylor** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:38 am

ok i took a 220 mile ride yesterday (you can read about it briefly on www.cannonballbuddy.com) and i really tried to practice slowing down enough to not use the breaks at all on the curvy hilly back roads i was on. and after getting the hang of it i really felt more confident and in control of the turn, not only that but i was able to keep a much more consistant speed. it was a great ride, after a while i felt like a real pro.
i have a question also...when going slowly like in town riding do you still try to avoid using your breaks in the turn? because i had the exact opposite kind of feeling like i wasn't really in control and couldn't quite judge how fast to be going.

thanks
rob taylor

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:00 am

some folks say to never brake into a turn. I think I brake into every one. The ideal technique is to scrub off all the speed you'll need to while you are completely upright before tipping it into the curve. When you are leaned a bit your contact patch is smaller and if you are braking there will be more force on it. More on less puts you closer to the point where the grip fails. But if you have a good sense of the road and your bikes ability to grip at a given angle then it becomes comfortable to brake into turns. But it is risking the situation where there is some new challenge like spilled oil/gas/deisel fuel on the spot that you drive over twice every day that is usually a nice smooth road. Less room for error. Being smooth without brakes through turns is fun too. But that usually comes from being in such good control that you can get on the gas earlier and accelerate out of corners faster (you're not worrying about braking and you don't have to transition from braking to throttle). In terms of going fast I think it really depends on the curve and situation when either is appropriate. But a lot less can go wrong if you just do all the slowing while you are up right and going straight.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:23 am

I started out usually either having a bit of back brake on (never the front) during a turn or just slowing down so much that it's no fun.

Recently I've been pushing the speed at which I can take a turn because I'm realizing the limits of the Buddy are pretty high. I'm trying to be very safe about it while learning how to do exactly what you're talking about- be quicker through turns.

My new goal is to scrape the center stand. I hate to admit it but I'm trying to lean harder. I probably shouldn't. Though in all honesty I don't think I've been very close. Just learning to become one with my Buddy. Wait... that sounded bad.

weaseltamer · Post by **weaseltamer** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:47 am

my Motorcycle safety course instructor was very adamant about no brakes in turns. to quote him, you would be taking traction away from gripping the road by using the brakes. ok i paraphrased... but i avoid it at all costs myself.

Sunil · Post by **Sunil** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:53 am

Its true that you never want to brake during a turn. The best approach is to slow down more then you need to, then roll on the throttle and accelerate through the turn. This ensures that you never "overcook" it and it helps you get a feel for how much speed you can carry through a corner. Over time you will get a feeling for how much speed your bike can handle. Braking in a turn un-weights the rear wheel and can cause you to lose traction and control. Most single bike accidents are caused by people taking turns too fast so it pays to learn the right way.

If you feel unstable during low speed turns you may not be accelerating enough. try not to coast through a corner. if you are travelling very slow lean the bike but keep your body straight. practicing tight figure 8s in a parking lot helped me get a good handle on low speed manuvering.

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:00 am

Many riders use trail braking into turns, to continue to scrub off speed after starting your lean. It's a standard technique on the track but, as BGK said, you're running lots of extra risks on the open road. Tracks are groomed for 10/10th's riding but the roads you're riding every day are not. As one gains experience and begins to truly comprehend the "feel" of the brakes, one can can experiment with trail braking.

I don't go into a road run thinking about trying to do certain things, like trail braking, knee dragging or stand scraping. But, whenever I decide to ride a road aggressively I take a warm-up ride first, scoping out all the current conditions. That way, you'll know in advance about the big rock just past the apex of the hard right turn and you'll also know about the snow melt running across the road just past the crest of the hill. Surprises are what get people. If you're riding full tilt and something surprises you, the pucker factor can pretty much explode in your face. If you're leaned over hard, "trying" to scrape something, you're at your bike's limits where transgressions are not usually forgiven.

Whenever possible, brake just hard enough while fully upright to enter the turn at your desired speed (sometimes this is really hard braking). If you're taking a left, push forward on the left grip to start countersteering. As you hit the apex, smoothly roll on the throttle to lighten the front end and power out of the turn.

It feels great every time you do it right, whether it's the first time or the 50,000th time. Jackie Stewart was all about smoothness and who are we to argue with a master?

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:37 am

I do sometimes drag my rear brake a touch to control a turn. I spoke to my MSF instructor about this and he said the general rule they teach was "don't brake at all" because of the potential for causing a slide but that dragging the rear brake is a common technique that requires some experience and practice. (I'd only do this on dray, smooth pavement.)

Regardless, the key is always to not enter a turn too fast. Most of the experienced riders I know who've crashed have done so because they took a turn too fast (with the exception of those who've crashed due to another vehicle.) Once you enter a turn too fast, and realize it, it's sometimes too late to correct.

jmazza wrote:My new goal is to scrape the center stand. I hate to admit it but I'm trying to lean harder. I probably shouldn't. Though in all honesty I don't think I've been very close. Just learning to become one with my Buddy. Wait... that sounded bad.

Well, I guess it's good to have a goal...

Every once in a while, I realize I'm getting a little carried away with my turns and have to remind myself to ease up. Having scraped the stand on the Buddy once—without trying—I'm not eager to do it again. I have visions of a planted stand causing the rear to spin out from under me... oof...

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:07 pm

I try not to use brakes at all while cornering. If you need to brake in the turn you have entered the turn too fast. Rear braking can lead to a low side slide out or if you feel the rear tire skidding and let go of the brake you can regain traction and get tossed off on the high side. I would suggest reviewing or reading braking techniques in "Proficient Motorcycling" by Hough.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:30 pm

ericalm wrote:
jmazza wrote:My new goal is to scrape the center stand. I hate to admit it but I'm trying to lean harder. I probably shouldn't. Though in all honesty I don't think I've been very close. Just learning to become one with my Buddy. Wait... that sounded bad.
Well, I guess it's good to have a goal...

Ahh... I knew that would get an eyeroll from SOMEONE!

Well like I said, it's really more that I'm trying to learn how the Buddy responds. And I think if you were to see me take a turn you'd laugh because I really don't think I'm very close to scraping the stand at all. Saying that I'm trying to scrape the stand is really more of a way of saying I'm trying to turn quicker and a bit harder. There's a reason for this beyond pushing the scooter- I'm sure anyone who rides in the city knows what it feels like to slow down so much (too much) before a turn that you've got a car or truck breathing down your back ... certainly a recipe for eventual disaster. So in that way, learning to be able to corner quickly is a worthy skill to learn.

I don't think it's wrong at all to cautiously try to feel how the scooter responds in different situations. I think I've got as much chance of going down learning to turn harder as I do when I practice hard swerves. I'm really not being cavalier about it at all... I'm typically a very cautious person and that transfers to my riding. I was the kid who'd put a piece of plywood on a single brick and ride over it with my bike thinking I was getting three feet of air.

As for the back brake, part of the reason that I'd end up applying some in a turn in the beginning was more because I was unsure of how much I could lean in a turn. I'd be going a slow enough speed but wouldn't think I was and I'd end up grabbing a bit of back brake. Getting more comfortable with a larger lean angle has gotten me totally off the back brake, which I know is absolutely preferable.

EDIT: Just checked how far I'd have to lean to scrape the stand, and yeah, I'm nowhere close!!

robtaylor · Post by **robtaylor** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:45 pm

i appretiate all the responses, and i got 8 new hits on mywebsite last night!

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:01 pm

robonz23 wrote:i appretiate all the responses, and i got 8 new hits on mywebsite last night!

Is there no feed on your site? I'd love to pop it in my reader to get updates.

EP_scoot · Post by **EP_scoot** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:27 pm

robonz23,
it might be a good idea to add a link to your site on your signature profile.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:43 pm

Cars behind you may get confused of why you are slowing down off the throttle, in a car usually you see them brake before turning, so they expect the same for a motorcycle/scooter. I guess it's ok to do if no one is following you close, or no one at all behind you, but I'd use my brakes if theres a car right behind me.

Drumwoulf · Post by **Drumwoulf** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:59 pm

[/quote]
saying I'm trying to turn quicker and a bit harder. There's a reason for this beyond pushing the scooter- I'm sure anyone who rides in the city knows what it feels like to slow down so much (too much) before a turn that you've got a car or truck breathing down your back ...
[/quote]

True enough. But IMO one also needs to be secure enough to not let vehicles behind you chase you into going faster than you should at the wrong moments..

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:13 pm

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:41 pm

Gotta be a safe rider, other cars behind you dont know what you are doing just slowing down with throttle, they may try to pass you and cut you off or cause a serious accident.

Giving them the brake light will alert them you are preparing to stop.

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:33 pm

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:17 pm

It is recommended that you "tap" the brakes a few times to warn people that you are going to slow down or stop. I have installed a wig wag on the Burgman and it definately getspeoples attention

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:25 pm

Sorry. I'm back on the road again, and I've been driving alot. I'm really tired of it too. I should have spent more time reading this thread before I stuck my nose in to this discussion. Later, Kaz

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:49 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:It is recommended that you "tap" the brakes a few times to warn people that you are going to slow down or stop. I have installed a wig wag on the Burgman and it definately getspeoples attention

Have someone check out when your Buddy's brake lights engage. When my wife started riding, I'd gripe at her for not tapping her brake to alert cars she was slowing. Turns out, as others discovered too, the Buddy brake lights don't come on until you're giving the lever a good squeeze. This is easily adjusted (though I have yet to do it...) Someone had posted a tutorial on this. I'll try to dig it up.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:30 am

Drumwoulf wrote:
jmazza wrote: saying I'm trying to turn quicker and a bit harder. There's a reason for this beyond pushing the scooter- I'm sure anyone who rides in the city knows what it feels like to slow down so much (too much) before a turn that you've got a car or truck breathing down your back ...
True enough. But IMO one also needs to be secure enough to not let vehicles behind you chase you into going faster than you should at the wrong moments..

Yup, it's a balance don't you think? I want to know how to ride in all situations... a very slow turn as well as a 'get the hell out of that car's way' quick and hard turn. Because both are definitely needed skills, at least on my commute they are!

On the brake light engaging, that's great advice Eric... I actually check mine every time before I ride off. And curiously, mine have always engaged the light with the slightest pull, which is nice. Sometimes, however, I catch myself tapping the brake to make the light flash and then realize my other brake is slightly engaged, making the tapping useless because the light is already on. Doh.

I'm pretty militant on the brake flash. Something I read here long before I got my scooter. I do it every time I'm slowing down, and especially when I'm stopped at a light and no one is yet behind me.

redcass · Post by **redcass** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:16 am

jmazza wrote:
robonz23 wrote:i appretiate all the responses, and i got 8 new hits on mywebsite last night!
Is there no feed on your site? I'd love to pop it in my reader to get updates.

I second this, I'd add a feed to my reader as well, otherwise I visit blogs much less frequently.

robtaylor · Post by **robtaylor** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:05 am

i'm sorry but i don't even know what a feed is, i just made the webpage on google but i'll bet i can figure it out if i know what it is.

Lagerhead · Post by **Lagerhead** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:14 am

robonz23 wrote:i'm sorry but i don't even know what a feed is, i just made the webpage on google but i'll bet i can figure it out if i know what it is.

I don't know how this works (feeds) but it looks like this might help.

http://www.google.com/webmasters/add.html

robtaylor · Post by **robtaylor** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:17 pm

this topic has taken a major turn, sorry i guess i hijacked my own thread here. you're gonna have to give me a couple of days on the feed thing as it is confusing me right now. i am assuming an rss feed would be preferred?