Electric Buddy!

[maryvu]

http://cens.com/cens/news/2008/NPIC_5731.jpg

PGO unveiled the world`s first lithium-ion/lead-acid battery electric scooter.


According to Chen Chih-tsao, PGO`s chief engineer, the new lithium-ion battery stores the electricity and supplies the more stable electricity to the traditional lead-acid battery, which outputs higher-voltage power to drive the motor. This design, Chen explained, prolongs the life of lead-acid batteries by preventing frequent deep discharges and also greatly reduces the weight of the vehicle. On PGO`s new dual-type battery electric scooter, the lithium-ion battery pack is portable. It weighs only 2.5kg and up extras can be stored in the luggage compartment for recharge at home.
MORE HERE

[10gallonhat]

Woohoo! Can't wait. I would definitely be interested in being an 'early adopter'.

[jfrost2]

I dont know about this, It can probably only go 50-100 miles before it needs a recharge, I'd rather have a gas engine scooter that will run 80-90mpg all the time.

But if this thing does get just as good mileage, maybe I'd get one, but electric vehicles are always much much pricier.

[illnoise]

Geez, I posted that story a couple days ago on 2strokebuzz and didn't even notice that.

Is that a Buddy Italia paint job?

There were a lot of lame retrofitted electric fake vinos at DealerExpo, but if PGO's doing it, and if Genuine's bringing them in, I bet they at least tried to raise the bar a notch.

Piaggio's promising hybrid scooters soon (they've been testing them for more than a year now), so it looks like everyone will come out with overpriced, underpowered electric scooters just in time for gas prices to go back down.

Bryan

[jfrost2]

Not too sure how long it takes to charge the batteries and how constant you'll need to recharge, but the cost of electricity to power the bike may cost more than current gas prices, cleaner, but in the end, your wallet isnt as full.

Just a thought.

[Quo Vadimus]

And, um, what about battery life? My laptop battery (lion) lasted about two years, but it gets to stay indoors. Batteries are a dread to dispose of, aren't they?

[maryvu]

I picked it up from 2SB for sure, via my feed reader

[illnoise]

yeah, battery-powered scooters haven't been much to write home about so far.

There are several bicycle-with-a-friction motor type things, they generally are OK, but have no suspension and caliper brakes, and they weigh too much to carry up stairs like a bike.

Then there are a ton of chinese scoots retrofitted with electric motors, they're usually underpowered and too heavy (with the bonus of being chinese-quality).

Then there are the home-made things like the dude in portland with the electric vespa smallframe, or the appliance scooter, or the Soundspeed electric conversion...

Then there's the Vectrix, which is actually a nice try, but it costs as much as a car and still has a few problems.

And the Vespa hybrids I mentioned earlier.

So hopes aren't high, but it'd be neat and a good market for Genuine to expand into.

General battery problems:

increased mfg. costs passed on to consumer
short range
low power
expensive to replace batteries
short rechargeable life of batteries
weight of batteries
disposal of batteries

So, if they just sort all that out (ha), no problem!

Bryan

[vitaminC]

I've seen some electric scooters in use around here. It's a bit strange, first you hear this weird howling type noise, then eventually this funny looking scooter (big floor) whooshes by... although not too fast.

I like the idea, but for an all electric vehicle, I'd rather have this: Aptera

[jfrost2]

Lets remember electric motorcycles and scooters are slower than their gas powered counter parts.

This bike probably only goes 30mph max with a 50-100 mile distance before a recharge is needed.

[KRUSTYburger]

If any vehicle needs to be electric, the Buddy should be the last one on the list...

[jmazza]

Does it have a gas starter?

[jfrost2]

Can it kickstart? take away the kick starter, and it aint a real scooter! It's just becoming a faster kiddy toy. Theres kids riding vespa branded scooters in my neighborhood. The ones for small kids that have training wheels and such.

[FA-Q]

I have heard that the electric motor can make a man go sterile. The electric scooters can actually draw a charge out of the driver when the battery gets real low. It is freaky to feel the bike sucking energy out of you and downright dangerous. No joke! This really happens!

[poop colored buddy]

you people know that an electric scooter gives off more pollution indirectly than a normal scooter right? please tell me you will do your research, electric vehicles are absolutely wretched for our environment. Below is an example using the prius "hybrid" vehicle, the same applies to a full electric vehicle, it takes coal burning plants to make the electricity to power a battery, coal is the dirtiest pollutant to burn, emitting large quantities of CO2. I have been on this rant before and people need to just educate themselves. I have a degree in Biological Science and a minor in physics so i know what im talking about. When you take a form of energy (coal) and turn it into electricity, energy is lost, making the electricity even less efficient than coal, then you charge the battery and energy is again lost through heat, once again as the battery is working even more energy is lost through heat; so by the time your battery is powering your scooter, it has used up more energy than just using gas in the first place....that energy is coming from somewhere, so even though your scooter doesnt create pollution once its running off the battery, make no mistake that a power plant of coal is spewing crap into our environment to power that scooter while its chilling in your garage charging. PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE!


http://thoolou.tblog.com/post/1969945150

[jfrost2]

Most, but not all comes from coal. There are geothermal and wind turbines and turbines from waterfalls. hough most cities run off coal power plants, the plants emissions are cleaner than many vehicles burning gasoline themselves.

But like I said, a vehicle that gets low miles to a recharge will probably in the end pollute more because it gets crappy mileage and needs constant recharging.

Also, the prius isnt a all electric car. It runs off gasoline, but the car still has a alternator which recharges the battery as it drives. In the city is uses pure electricity because of the low power it takes to make the car go low speeds. Highway, it uses half and half, pure electricity cant make a car go 70mph and last long, so it needs the help of gasoline. Really, as long as the battery last, it wont cause as much pollution than any other car.

But really, I dont care about saving the environment, I care about high MPG, cars can run off gas for the rest of time for all I care, I just hope they can make the cars get atleast 100mpg during my life time. Going for hydrogen, e-85 and pure electricity is stupid. Theres guys making bio disel in their garage in one after noon and their getting 40-50mph in a truck that got 10mpg 30 years ago.

If green scientist were so smart, we'd be raving about bio disel right now rather than e-85 which gives you crappier mpg.

[madtolive]

unfortunately, bio fuels such as ethanol are also not a "clean" solution, when you take into account how their production drives up the price of food and will *further* starve the world's population.



http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jan2008 ... insbro.asp

[vitaminC]

I have been on this rant before and people need to just educate themselves

Please, take your own advice. It's important to be able to tell the difference between an article written by someone with an agenda, and one that actually uses sound scientific principles.

[vitaminC]

If green scientist were so smart, we'd be raving about bio disel right now rather than e-85 which gives you crappier mpg.

I think you might find this has a lot less to do with scientists, and lot more to do with politics and the farm lobbyists- which we are not supposed to discuss on this board.

[DanMB]

I posted a question about this over at Endless-Sphere Forums Electrical Vehicle Technology Forums.

They know a good bit more about this subject than we do. If want to follow the discussion follow the url below:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... f=1&t=3899

[DanMB]

I think an electric scooter would be an excellent solution for people who want a vehicle that requires lower maintenence than a gasoline scooter. And I wouldn't care if the range is only 50 miles since I would only use it for errands around town.

[jfrost2]

Sorry that my post could strike argument. I dont want to break any rules or anything, so I wont post about this anymore.

[DanMB]

I wouldn't worry about it. It is a valid question. Lots of people feel electric vehicles are harmful to the environment. I think it is helpful to discuss it and weigh the arguments from people who have differing views on the subject.

I have no opinion either way since I don't know enough about the technology.

PS> Actually, I'm considering a Genuine Rattler 110cc since it kicks a$$

[PTB]

Wind power!

In MN, there is a statutory mandate for the regulated energy company to build wind turbines. Its generally a little more expensive than fossil-fuel power here in MN, but at times of high fossil fuel prices, can be cheaper. And its (relatively) green.

My house is 100% powered by wind turbines, and a group of us convinced our employer to do the same for our offices.

Someday, maybe the combination of electric vehicles and wind power will be commonplace.

[illnoise]

Yeah, this is a touchy subject with a lot of debate between science, politics, and commerce, and its own genre of urban legends and conspiracy theories. I think it's great to talk about it, but let's try not to get dogmatic or personal about it. Like anything, there are ways to spin the information to get pretty much any viewpoint you want to take.

It seems like the general consensus among scientists (who I tend to side with) is that electric and hybrid vehicles are not a good long-term solution, but for some reason that seems to be the path that manufacturers are putting the most money into, and that consumers are accepting to some degree.

Personally, I think the market will dictate what happens. Consumers, the government, and industry generally take the path of least resistance, so we'll probably all just suck it up and keep paying for oil and pretending we're making progress in alternative fuels. When it gets to a point where oil isn't viable anymore, I'm totally certain that better solutions will be found. There's a lot to be said for just letting things get out of control and then panickedly fixing them, that seems to be the way humanity has coped throughout history, ha.

[KRUSTYburger]

Yeah, this is a touchy subject with a lot of debate between science, politics, and commerce, and its own genre of urban legends and conspiracy theories. I think it's great to talk about it, but let's try not to get dogmatic or personal about it. Like anything, there are ways to spin the information to get pretty much any viewpoint you want to take.

It seems like the general consensus among scientists (who I tend to side with) is that electric and hybrid vehicles are not a good long-term solution, but for some reason that seems to be the path that manufacturers are putting the most money into, and that consumers are accepting to some degree.

Personally, I think the market will dictate what happens. Consumers, the government, and industry generally take the path of least resistance, so we'll probably all just suck it up and keep paying for oil and pretending we're making progress in alternative fuels. When it gets to a point where oil isn't viable anymore, I'm totally certain that better solutions will be found. There's a lot to be said for just letting things get out of control and then panickedly fixing them, that seems to be the way humanity has coped throughout history, ha.

Yeah, what he said! I agree... we can't buy it if they don't make it!

[jfrost2]

Sad to say though, if we live old enough to see a actual clean and easily renewable fuel for our vehicles, our scooters wont work. Unless they work in unleaded motors also with an additive like older cars used.

[zekeo]

I would also be willing to trade in my gas buddy for an electric as I pretty much only ride around the city (20 mile range), as long as the price was right.

Here in Seattle, much of our electricity comes from hydropower. It is much cleaner than coal or gasoline in an internal combustion engine. Many cities have nuclear power, which has little to no Co2 emissions (although nuclear is a whole other can of worms).

One thing I do want to clarify is that hybrid cars like the Prius do not pull any power from the grid. They do not use coal power (although they might be coming out with a plug-in version). They simply reclaim energy from braking, store it in a battery, and use it later. The MPG improvement correlates with the improvement in environmental impact. The biggest impact of these cars might be issues with disposing of spent batteries...

[PTB]

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04 ... energy.php

[jfrost2]

So....Solar and nuclear are the cleanest of all on that list of vehicles. Great! When can I get a buddy which will run off nuclear energy and need refueling every 50,000 miles? And when can it be so advanced it doesnt need oil changes.

[femsatronic]

whoa. I met those dudes in that pic last summer.

[illnoise]

So....Solar and nuclear are the cleanest of all on that list of vehicles. Great! When can I get a buddy which will run off nuclear energy and need refueling every 50,000 miles? And when can it be so advanced it doesnt need oil changes.

That chart isn't talking about solar/nuclear-powered vehicles (though I've read of a couple solar-powered scooters), it's saying if you're charging an electric vehicle with power from a nuclear plant or a solar farm, your limiting your carbon footprint to nearly 0 (except the carbon footprint created by the manufacturing and shipping of the scooter)

There's a good story in the current Wired about ZAP electric cars (in short, they're kind of a scam) and some background info on electric cars.

It gave me the impression that companies depending on cheap Chinese products might end up being the downfall of electric vehicles, too, though that's not at all the gist of the story (the gist is that ZAP is screwing over investors and potential customers).

Bb.

[poop colored buddy]

I have been on this rant before and people need to just educate themselves

Please, take your own advice. It's important to be able to tell the difference between an article written by someone with an agenda, and one that actually uses sound scientific principles.

Take my own advice? Look dude, ther are peer reviewed major scientific journals that back what I have said up with facts, cold hard facts. You have to be a scientist or grad student in a science program at a major university to get online access to these journals for free, otherwise you have to pay 14-45 dollars to see them. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but facts are facts, and about this topic; I am right. Next we will be arguing about whether the earth is round or flat? Now this guy in the article does have an obvious agenda, but what he is saying is correct. I wouldn't argue with the doctor telling him I don't have cancer, or maybe have it while he's staring at my lab results. Now I don't specialize in this area of science, but it is an interest to me, and I follow a lot of journals about this topic.

[poop colored buddy]

So....Solar and nuclear are the cleanest of all on that list of vehicles. Great! When can I get a buddy which will run off nuclear energy and need refueling every 50,000 miles? And when can it be so advanced it doesnt need oil changes.

Or explode and blow up the neighborhood.

[BGK]

What kind of turbine do you use to power the house? I think a solar charging station or turbine charging station on the side of the garage for the scooter would be about as green as you could get. Jeb at Soundspeed scooters is marketing a package like that.

http://soundspeedscooters.com/ev_500

But the thing that I think will end up being the hidden cost is the disposal of the components from batteries to the electronics. Last week they collected tons of used electronic equipment in MN and the event was swamped for a second time.

http://www.startribune.com/local/17305214.html

What happens to all that? If we prevent ocean levels rising and stop smog from clogging our skies (not a problem in most places anyway), will we all be dead of toxic metal poisoning? Imagine if everyone had their own nuclear power generator and it was left up to individuals to dispose of their own spent plutonium.

Wind power!

In MN, there is a statutory mandate for the regulated energy company to build wind turbines. Its generally a little more expensive than fossil-fuel power here in MN, but at times of high fossil fuel prices, can be cheaper. And its (relatively) green.

My house is 100% powered by wind turbines, and a group of us convinced our employer to do the same for our offices.

Someday, maybe the combination of electric vehicles and wind power will be commonplace.

[vitaminC]

Look dude, ther are peer reviewed major scientific journals that back what I have said up with facts, cold hard facts. You have to be a scientist or grad student in a science program at a major university to get online access to these journals for free

As a matter of fact, that's what I am. Thanks for asking. Now, which articles are we talking about?

[zekeo]

Poop colored buddy,

It's hard to trust your authority on the issue when you argue that the Prius runs off of coal. Like I posted before, the prius's battery is charged from regenerative braking, not from the electric grid.

[DanMB]

Poop,

You said:

Look dude, ther [sic] are peer reviewed major scientific journals that back what I have said up with facts, cold hard facts. You have to be a scientist or grad student in a science program at a major university to get online access to these journals for free, otherwise you have to pay 14-45 dollars to see them.

If you have a post-secondary education surely you know that there are abstracts of these journal articles freely available to the public.

Please tell me you will do your research, electric vehicles are absolutely wretched for our environment.

If you have done the research you should be able to provide us links to the abstracts of the journals to which you refer. A link to an abstract would prove your point much better than providing us a link to a blog that nobody has ever heard of that cites an op-ed piece in a university student newspaper.

The information in the link you provide is based on a widely discredited study done by CNW Marketing Research. It was popularized by Rush Limbaugh when he quoted an op-ed piece by Chris Demorrow in the Recorder - the student news paper at Central Connecticut State University. Funny thing is that the research in the CNW Marketing Research report was so flawed that an embarrassed Mr. Demorrow later wrote:

Along those lines, in the interest of fair and balanced journalism, it should be noted that the CNW Marketing research “Dust to Dust,” which I cited in my article, is dubious at best. Much of the debate has centered on the lifetime mileage of the Prius versus the Hummer. The average expected lifespan for a Prius, according to the report, was 100,000 miles when, in reality, the Prius is offered in several states with a warranty up to 150,000 miles alone.

There was also a great deal of debate regarding just which Hummer was used in the CNW report. It was the original Hummer, not the H2 or H3, which may clear up the 300,000 mile lifespan expected from a Hummer. However, there are enough holes as large as this throughout the CNW report to question its objectivity.

Here is a link to Demorrow's recantation: http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editoria ... NewsID=203

You should read this article in Slate Magazine exposing the faulty methodology used by CNW:

http://www.slate.com/id/2186786

An even better source of information would be to read original research in this analysis of vehicular life cycles by MIT:

http://web.mit.edu/energylab/www/pubs/el00-003.pdf

[jfrost2]

There is one car which looks promising, but I think all the tech out there right now is a bunch of crap if people want to save the enviroment. If they really care, all cars would run off biodisel already. If properly made, it wont clog the fuel lines like pure oil or past biodisels have. Old chevy pickups are getting 30-40mpg off bio disel where they got less than 10 30 years ago.

The only good hybrid that is coming out is the chevy volt, it gets 50-60mpg because it uses a generator to recharge the battery. The car itself runs off 100% battery power, but the generator runs off gas, and generators run a LONG time on gas.

The car can also go 40 miles in pure electricity if you plug it in, but I still like my vehicle to pollute the environment, my scooter does 3-4x less than a car would, but it still pollutes.