08 Gas Caps

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:58 pm

Howardr wrote:SO, I had a vapor lock issue a couple of weeks ago when I went on my Ghost Town ride. The following day I vented the gas cap. My dealer had never heard of the vapor lock issue previously. However, I went by there the day after I vented to cap and was talking about my ride. One of the mechanic guys asks "Do you have the update?" I said I didn't know, so he pulled the boot out, says "No, you don't."
He then proceeded to cut the hose with the charcoal canister in two. He sealed the distal end with a screw, then zip-tied the end going to the tank someplace else.
Has anyone else gotten the "update?"

FWIW, I went on a long, 90-100mile ride today and had no problems whatsoever.

Howard

Howard,

I thought the only update was a new gas cap with a tiny hole in it. Now, as I understand things, there is this uh boot-hose reconfiguration?

PR

5 bud7 · Post by **5 bud7** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:32 pm

Any time there is a fine involved, the action is illegal. I can see you protecting genuine because it is your bread and butter. When a cettified smog tech tells you this and you question him, this is not proper. Go to calif, smog regulations for gas scooters and the site will tell it is illegal to modify smog system in any way. The repair howardRS mechanic made to cut and plug the vacuum hose to the carb is also disableing the smog system, not repairing it. eric,, you live in one of the worst polluted cities in the world, you can see what pollution does,

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:50 pm

5 bud7 wrote:Any time there is a fine involved, the action is illegal. I can see you protecting genuine because it is your bread and butter. When a cettified smog tech tells you this and you question him, this is not proper. Go to calif, smog regulations for gas scooters and the site will tell it is illegal to modify smog system in any way. The repair howardRS mechanic made to cut and plug the vacuum hose to the carb is also disableing the smog system, not repairing it. eric,, you live in one of the worst polluted cities in the world, you can see what pollution does,

Who has been fined? I'm not arguing this and Genuine is certainly not my bread and butter—I don't get anything from them for doing this. I'm interested in accurate information and all you're doing is spouting stuff off the top of your head. I don't think it's unreasonable to say you should have some actual, non-anecdotal, documented basis for this kind of accusation. It's not subjective, or opinion. If having a vented gas cap is indeed illegal for these scooters, then someone should be able to find a citation.

I searched the CARB site and all I got that was remotely related were reports for emissions tests for vehicles with vented fuel tanks. I could find nothing saying a vented cap is prohibited.

It is illegal to modify the pollution control systems in CA (code here—see how easy it is to cite a source?) but that still may not pertain in this case because as I said earlier, the vented gas cap may have been part of the original design for this tank. Scooters shipped with the wrong cap, which is now being replaced.

olhogrider · Post by **olhogrider** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:32 am

OK everyone, calm down. It is probable that the new caps have a one way vent INTO the tank, not out. That would allow the fuel to get where it is going but not allow vapors out. Just a thought. Maybe, just maybe Genuine has done its homework and is in compliance with Federal and State regulations. As for fuel draining onto the exhaust, I have overfilled mine several times now and NEVER encountered that! Sounds like someone has something hooked up wrong.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:07 pm

olhogrider wrote:OK everyone, calm down. It is probable that the new caps have a one way vent INTO the tank, not out. That would allow the fuel to get where it is going but not allow vapors out. Just a thought. Maybe, just maybe Genuine has done its homework and is in compliance with Federal and State regulations. As for fuel draining onto the exhaust, I have overfilled mine several times now and NEVER encountered that! Sounds like someone has something hooked up wrong.

No, the official vented cap is just a drilled hole exactly like the unofficial one. No one way vent

sbebenelli · Post by **sbebenelli** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:51 pm

ericalm wrote:the vented gas cap may have been part of the original design for this tank. Scooters shipped with the wrong cap, which is now being replaced.

You keep saying this and I keep telling you vented gas caps and EVAP do not go together. Please show me documentation where the two are used together on any modern vehicle.

olhogrider wrote:OK everyone, calm down. It is probable that the new caps have a one way vent INTO the tank, not out. That would allow the fuel to get where it is going but not allow vapors out.

This would be the only way a vented gas cap could be used with EVAP. I stand corrected if this is how they are fixing it. From what I read it's not the case but I haven't seen the "new" vented gas caps so I don't know. Great idea though!

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:21 pm

From what I can see looking through all the posts on this forum, the vapor-lock problem and its solution varies drastically from state to state and dealer to dealer.
My dealer denied knowing anything about any kind of vapor lock problem for the first couple of months I had the scooter. Then, out of the blue, when I took it there last week, they're all of sudden talking about this "update." This is not a slam on my dealer. They are great people and I trust them. They honestly appeared to be ignorant of the whole vapor lock issue, initially.
It's a difficult thing to figure out. One would think that Genuine would pass the same information about problems as well as any "updates" to all dealers at the same time. I don't get it.

Howard

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:26 pm

sbebenelli wrote:
ericalm wrote:the vented gas cap may have been part of the original design for this tank. Scooters shipped with the wrong cap, which is now being replaced.
You keep saying this and I keep telling you vented gas caps and EVAP do not go together. Please show me documentation where the two are used together on any modern vehicle.

I can't! That's why I said "may," it's conditional. The second half of my statement is not; it's factual.

Again, I'm not arguing what makes a good evap system, what's best for the environment, or how these things should be engineered.

I don't want people stumbling onto this discussion via Google or whatever, reading it without context, and thinking that Genuine and its dealers are knowingly breaking the law and that owners and others may be subject to fines—or have already been fined—if there's nothing to back any of that up. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that 5bud7 take some responsibility for what he says and provide some kind of verifiable sources for his claims—statute, regulations, any kind of solid documentation. This is different than a casual discussion about mileage or painting your scooter or whatever. I don't want this forum to be a source of this kind of false information (if that's the case).

5 bud7 · Post by **5 bud7** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:04 pm

you keep using words like may or ( if thats the case ) in your responses to cloud the issues. You have conceded to change or modify the smog system is illegal. Any holes to vent to atmosphere are illegal as the system is pressureized so fumes are forced out. I said genuine and their dealers could be fined, not people that bought scooters.I will not post on this issue again because of your desire to argue instead of learn

coffeekittie · Post by **coffeekittie** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:31 am

BadWolf wrote:
ydogi wrote:which is the new cap ???

there is a medal one and a plastic one ( mine is plastic )

i work in a large scooter store and we sell lots of buddys i havent heard anything about the gas caps and i dont belive we got a shipment of new caps
If you have a plastic cap your fine.

Thanks! I'm sitting here getting more and more worried as I had no idea which cap I had.... but I have the "good" plastic one

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:51 am

coffeekittie wrote:
BadWolf wrote:
ydogi wrote:which is the new cap ???

there is a medal one and a plastic one ( mine is plastic )

i work in a large scooter store and we sell lots of buddys i havent heard anything about the gas caps and i dont belive we got a shipment of new caps
If you have a plastic cap your fine.
Thanks! I'm sitting here getting more and more worried as I had no idea which cap I had.... but I have the "good" plastic one

I have a metal one that has a tiny hole in it. LOOK for the HOLE.

coffeekittie · Post by **coffeekittie** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:43 pm

Ok, going outside right now to look for a hole somewhere on the cap...!

coffeekittie · Post by **coffeekittie** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:44 pm

Drat, no hole. Think I'll see if they will mail me the new one like another poster's dealer did.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:04 pm

coffeekittie wrote:Drat, no hole. Think I'll see if they will mail me the new one like another poster's dealer did.

I spoke with someone from Genuine at an event yesterday. This issue came up and I'm pretty sure he said the new caps are not vented but do prevent vapor lock. I need to verify this, though (we were discussing other things and standing right next to the soundsystem so I may have misheard). I'll try to contact someone at Genuine tomorrow after the holiday.

5 bud7 wrote:you keep using words like may or ( if thats the case ) in your responses to cloud the issues.

This isn't some rhetorical trick. I'm not making declarative statements that I cannot verify or back up (the colloquial term for this is "talking out your ass"). If I was somehow trying to cloud the issue, I wouldn't have pointed out my use of those terms above and said that they were conditional, used to point out a possibility that I don't know to be factual but which suggests other options and scenarios affecting the conditions and conclusions.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:31 pm

ericalm wrote:
coffeekittie wrote:Drat, no hole. Think I'll see if they will mail me the new one like another poster's dealer did.
I spoke with someone from Genuine at an event yesterday. This issue came up and I'm pretty sure he said the new caps are not vented but do prevent vapor lock. I need to verify this, though (we were discussing other things and standing right next to the soundsystem so I may have misheard). I'll try to contact someone at Genuine tomorrow after the holiday.

The one that my dealer provided after I asked them to get me one from genuine IS vented. Its drilled basically like people were saying to do here.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:32 pm

Kaos wrote:
ericalm wrote:
coffeekittie wrote:Drat, no hole. Think I'll see if they will mail me the new one like another poster's dealer did.
I spoke with someone from Genuine at an event yesterday. This issue came up and I'm pretty sure he said the new caps are not vented but do prevent vapor lock. I need to verify this, though (we were discussing other things and standing right next to the soundsystem so I may have misheard). I'll try to contact someone at Genuine tomorrow after the holiday.
The one that my dealer provided after I asked them to get me one from genuine IS vented. Its drilled basically like people were saying to do here.

Yeah, that's why I'm going to contact them to try to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

skullmechanic · Post by **skullmechanic** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:22 pm

ericalm wrote:Yeah, that's why I'm going to contact them to try to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

Thanks. Let's put speculation aside and find out what's going on.

5 bud7 · Post by **5 bud7** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:23 pm

About half of your forum members ( 1300 ) are waiting for your response you promised from genuine. Are you going to dissapoint all those people?

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:54 pm

So I have an '06 125. I have been experiencing the vapor lock problem ever since I bought the thing. Whenever I put too much gas in the tank I lose all my power for about 10 seconds about a block away from the gas station. Once it is over it doesn't happen again until I overfill again. I also leak fuel for about 10 miles after the overfill.

Problem is... from this thread it sounds like the general consensus is that if you have a plastic gas cap (I do) then you are ok. This is not the case. Anyone in a similar position?

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:18 pm

5 bud7 wrote:About half of your forum members ( 1300 ) are waiting for your response you promised from genuine. Are you going to dissapoint all those people?

No, I've been playing some phone tag with them. A lot of the Genuine higher ups do a lot of traveling and we've been swapping messages. Working on it. You'll hear back when I speak with them.

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:21 pm

trevo_man wrote:So I have an '06 125. I have been experiencing the vapor lock problem ever since I bought the thing. Whenever I put too much gas in the tank I lose all my power for about 10 seconds about a block away from the gas station. Once it is over it doesn't happen again until I overfill again. I also leak fuel for about 10 miles after the overfill.

Problem is... from this thread it sounds like the general consensus is that if you have a plastic gas cap (I do) then you are ok. This is not the case. Anyone in a similar position?

From what I understand, the '06 125 has a different vapor recovery design than the newer Buddys. The gas caps we're talking about are for the newer Buddys.

You say you experience this when you overfill the tank. I think the solution should be pretty obvious.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:15 pm

I just had a very nice conversation with Philip McCaleb, the big cheese at Genuine. He's a real busy guy, so I really appreciate any time he takes to speak with me about these types of things.

Here's the poop on the gas caps and so on:

1. The EPA does not have requirements regarding a vapor recovery (evap) system; those are for the benefit of California and CARB. Vented caps were provided as a solution for the 49 other states, never for California, and do not constitute any illegal activity when used in the 49 other states.

2. For California, Genuine went to PGO for an engineering a solution. Two months ago, they provided CA dealers with repair kits which essentially relocate the vapor recovery valve in the gas tank. This prevents vapor lock and any leakage without circumventing the evap system. If you're experiencing the vapor lock problem, contact your dealer.

3. If you live in California and drilled your cap, or your dealer did it, that's on you or them to correct or deal with the repercussions. This recommendation came from owners and dealers, etc. in other states—Genuine never recommended that Californians drill their caps.

SO, if you live in a state other than CA and have either a vented replacement cap or drilled your cap, you're fine. If you're in CA and are experiencing the vapor lock problem, contact your dealer and ask them about the repair kit/tank modification. If they don't know what you're talking about, they should contact Genuine, not you.

Again, this should only affect '08 Buddys and is best prevented by not overfilling the tank.

rayk · Post by **rayk** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:43 am

Thanks for this info Eric. I've been reading the various threads on this vapor lock problem for quite awhile now. It's good to get the scoop. I live in California and was sure the evap system was for CA/CARB, and was sure the "drill the cap" solution wasn't kosher for CA. My scoot (St. Tropez) is supposed to be shipped to my dealer in San Diego later this week. Do you think as it's a Calif. model it will already have this mod installed from the factory? I will definitely ask my dealer, but thought Philip may have said something to you about this.
It's been a long wait (since mid-July) and I'm ready!

Ray

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:55 am

rayk wrote:Thanks for this info Eric. I've been reading the various threads on this vapor lock problem for quite awhile now. It's good to get the scoop. I live in California and was sure the evap system was for CA/CARB, and was sure the "drill the cap" solution wasn't kosher for CA. My scoot (St. Tropez) is supposed to be shipped to my dealer in San Diego later this week. Do you think as it's a Calif. model it will already have this mod installed from the factory? I will definitely ask my dealer, but thought Philip may have said something to you about this.
It's been a long wait (since mid-July) and I'm ready!

Ray

I don;t know when they'll start shipping with the adjustment already made. I do know that there's obviously a lag between manufacturing, ordering and shipping and that it takes about 3 months from order to dealer, so I would think a new Buddy brought to the US may not have it installed. Your Buddy will probably be an '09 but there weren;t any changes from the '08s. So, yeah, ask your dealer. Are you buying from Motorsport?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:18 am

All of the 08's have metal tanks aside from maybe the 50, I never checked. The 09's have a new cap (no hole) and a sticker that reads "do not overfill tank". We received our replacement caps and I believe they don't have holes in them

rayk · Post by **rayk** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:10 am

ericalm wrote:
rayk wrote:Thanks for this info Eric. I've been reading the various threads on this vapor lock problem for quite awhile now. It's good to get the scoop. I live in California and was sure the evap system was for CA/CARB, and was sure the "drill the cap" solution wasn't kosher for CA. My scoot (St. Tropez) is supposed to be shipped to my dealer in San Diego later this week. Do you think as it's a Calif. model it will already have this mod installed from the factory? I will definitely ask my dealer, but thought Philip may have said something to you about this.
It's been a long wait (since mid-July) and I'm ready!

Ray
I don;t know when they'll start shipping with the adjustment already made. I do know that there's obviously a lag between manufacturing, ordering and shipping and that it takes about 3 months from order to dealer, so I would think a new Buddy brought to the US may not have it installed. Your Buddy will probably be an '09 but there weren;t any changes from the '08s. So, yeah, ask your dealer. Are you buying from Motorsport?

Yes. I've been dealing with Eric. This seems like a great shop, great people. I'll be sure to bring this up with them. Have you had any experience with them? I know you're in LA, but ...
Also, I thought the lag time would be considerable what with them coming from Taiwan.
Ray

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:19 am

rayk wrote:
ericalm wrote: Are you buying from Motorsport?
Yes. I've been dealing with Eric. This seems like a great shop, great people. I'll be sure to bring this up with them. Have you had any experience with them? I know you're in LA, but ...
Also, I thought the lag time would be considerable what with them coming from Taiwan.
Ray

I have bought a lot from them online or via phone and have had Max answer various questions for me over on ModernVespa. Very knowledgeable and helpful staff with a great reputation in the scooter community.

rayk · Post by **rayk** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:58 pm

ericalm wrote:
rayk wrote:
ericalm wrote: Are you buying from Motorsport?
Yes. I've been dealing with Eric. This seems like a great shop, great people. I'll be sure to bring this up with them. Have you had any experience with them? I know you're in LA, but ...
Also, I thought the lag time would be considerable what with them coming from Taiwan.
Ray
I have bought a lot from them online or via phone and have had Max answer various questions for me over on ModernVespa. Very knowledgeable and helpful staff with a great reputation in the scooter community.

That's good to hear Eric. Reinforces my initial opinions.

dawgbeach · Post by **dawgbeach** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:01 am

Hey RayK,
I'm waiting on my seafoam 125 from Motorsport, which should be here next week. Seems like we're in the same shipment.
Have you asked about the vapor-lock fix for us in CA? I suppose I'm going to get it out of the way right away and maybe it can be dealt with during the dealer prep.
Seems like enough people are dealing with vpor lock that the fix should be universal???

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:31 am

dawgbeach wrote:Hey RayK,
I'm waiting on my seafoam 125 from Motorsport, which should be here next week. Seems like we're in the same shipment.
Have you asked about the vapor-lock fix for us in CA? I suppose I'm going to get it out of the way right away and maybe it can be dealt with during the dealer prep.
Seems like enough people are dealing with vpor lock that the fix should be universal???

I think the idea was that they could provide a fast and easy fix for 49 states so they did that ASAP. It took longer to develop a fix for CA, where a simple gas cap swap isn't sufficient. The CA fix also requires the dealer to make install the kit in your tank, so it's more costly and time-consuming on their end.

The fix should be (if it's not already) built into the new Buddys. The '09 models shipping now may not need the fix, but definitely talk to the dealer about this.

esk · Post by **esk** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:39 am

do you think any dealers *outside* of california would be willing/able to do the california-style fix? i'm personally not that pleased with the whole "vented gas cap" workaround, and i've experienced what i think was vapor lock at least once so far on my '08 125 buddy...

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:36 am

esk wrote:do you think any dealers *outside* of california would be willing/able to do the california-style fix? i'm personally not that pleased with the whole "vented gas cap" workaround, and i've experienced what i think was vapor lock at least once so far on my '08 125 buddy...

I'm sure they could, but you'd have to talk to your dealer, who would have to get the kit from Genuine or a CA dealer.

esk · Post by **esk** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:39 am

ericalm wrote:I'm sure they could, but you'd have to talk to your dealer, who would have to get the kit from Genuine or a CA dealer.

*sigh* oh, there you go, giving out answers that make sense.

rayk · Post by **rayk** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:09 am

dawgbeach wrote:Hey RayK,
I'm waiting on my seafoam 125 from Motorsport, which should be here next week. Seems like we're in the same shipment.
Have you asked about the vapor-lock fix for us in CA? I suppose I'm going to get it out of the way right away and maybe it can be dealt with during the dealer prep.
Seems like enough people are dealing with vpor lock that the fix should be universal???

Actually I did talk to Eric at Motorsport late this afternoon. He says the Sept scoots will be '09s and should have the fix already. They do have the kits in the shop but haven't had anyone come in with the problem so haven't had to install them yet.
By the way, I lived in OB from 73-80, on Saratoga between Cable and Bacon.
I'll be looking for you on your seafoam.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:39 pm

rayk wrote:
dawgbeach wrote:Hey RayK,
I'm waiting on my seafoam 125 from Motorsport, which should be here next week. Seems like we're in the same shipment.
Have you asked about the vapor-lock fix for us in CA? I suppose I'm going to get it out of the way right away and maybe it can be dealt with during the dealer prep.
Seems like enough people are dealing with vpor lock that the fix should be universal???
Actually I did talk to Eric at Motorsport late this afternoon. He says the Sept scoots will be '09s and should have the fix already. They do have the kits in the shop but haven't had anyone come in with the problem so haven't had to install them yet.
By the way, I lived in OB from 73-80, on Saratoga between Cable and Bacon.
I'll be looking for you on your seafoam.

That's what I wanted to hear!

Modern Buddy

08 Gas Caps

boot-hose reconfiguraion?

look for the hole