Commuting Help, Please

[dru_]

Regarding the Warranty, it depends heavily on the state you live in. Some states, the warranty is transferrable regardless of the wording on the warranty itself , generally any state with a lemon law, also enforces warranty issues so that dealerships can't buy back lemon's and resell them without warranty.

That said, a dealer is under no obligation to perform work under warranty in most states. So the pickle is less, is the warranty transferrable, and more, is my dealer willing to perform warranty work (and submit the paperwork to the vendor etc..) on a resold bike, and when there is an issue be willing to absorb some or all of the cost of a denied warranty claim.

Most reputable dealers seem to take the customer service high road and do the right thing. Meaning, if it's clearly warranty work, call the manufacturer and get the approval, then do the work. If the claim is subsequently denied or partially denied, they make a case by case judgement of charging the customer or eating the cost, or asking the customer to meet in the middle.

In the two brands mentioned, Genuine has a pretty good reputation. Kymco it seems is in the same boat, with an excellent reputation in terms of service and reliability.

This post covers the topic in great detail:

viewtopic.php?t=1003&highlight=warranty

Kymco USA (and this is apparently their choice as the importer, not handed down from Kymco HQ) states transferable on the warranty, as advertised by several of their dealers ( http://www.cbxmanmotorcycles.com/Scoote ... nties.aspx ). My paperwork is at home, so I'd have to check, but I don't think it's stated on the card itself, and manufacturer policies can change like the wind.

Now, do yourself a favor and take anything published on CBXMan with a grain of salt, but I *think* my dealer reiterated the same thing a year ago.

[San Francisco]

Having had about 200 motorcycles and scooters, I have an opinion.

Since you want to stick to the scooter, you need to get one of the bigger CC models, at least a 250, but even larger. What you really need to concentrate on, however, is getting a scooter big enough to make the commute safe and comfortable, and one that can handle the interstate when you will inevitably travel on that road.

You need a larger scooter so to physically handle going freeway speeds, 55 mph and above. Scooters in size and weight similar to the Buddy are just too small. One thing you definitely do NOT want to do is travel at 50 mph+ on a scooter with small tires, such as those on the Buddy and other Vespa sized scooters. Small tires, fast speeds and ruts on the highway are a lousy combination. I always say that the faster the speed and longer the ride, the more you need big tires and a fast scooter.

I can assure you that commuting 30 miles on a "Buddy sized" scooter will become a scary event, real fast. You need physical size and power when commuting on the highways. Mentally, you need to feel like something bigger than a fly when on the interstate. When on the interstate you need lots of power and acceleration to merge on to the interstate and to get out of tight spots.

You have to remember that scooters are trampled on by cars all the time, so much so that while riding you are 100% on the defense the entire commute. Many, many times I have saved myself by being able to power up my motorcycles to get out of a tight spot.

An underpowered Buddy type scooter will never be able to power up to get out of harm's way. You pretty much would have to stay in the slow lane and pray the whole way.

So what you really need is some type of scooter that is almost a motorcycle, or a hybrid, if you will. I don't know much about what is out there in the scooter world that would meet the above requirements, but one that comes to mind is the Honda Helix or something like that model.

To add more vinegar to this post, IMHO I don't think even a 250 cc scooter will work, mainly because while you may have the engine size, those scooters are just a tad bigger than the Buddy, meaning these scooters are just plain too small for a 30 mile commute on "freeway speed" highways.

That's my take on it.

[Keys]

Hmm. It's a good thing I don't agree...I'd have missed some of the most spectacular rides I've experienced in my 38 years of riding. I've road-raced, built my own (from the ground up) choppers and restored old iron. I don't own a Buddy because it is incapable of doing what I want it to do. It can do anything I ask of it...and comfortably. I wouldn't ask it to cruise the freeway at 75 mph, but I would ask it to take the secondary road to the same place and enjoy the slower pace. I regularly do WELL over 30 mile trips with the scooter just happily burbling beneath me. I have a 300 mile ride coming up in May and I'm planning an over 3000 mile ride to Baton Rouge and back. The only time a longer trip would be unpleasant would be if you subscribe to what we in the Marine Corps called the "4-P" principle...Piss Poor Prior Planning.

And yes, I spend most of my time at full throttle and thoroughly enjoy the handling characteristics of my Buddy at 60, 65 or 70 mph. It's just what you get used to.

Again, I remember when a 500 was a BIG motorcycle. In 1976 I rode a Yamaha RD250 from San Diego to Denver and back. Twice. It was NOT a small motorcycle...it was a mid-sized bike. We as a society have simply blindly followed the "bigger is better" axiom, and failed to look back on what was possible, probable and realistic just a few years earlier. 750cc and bigger is NOT required for a long trip. I've had 250's that would do over 100 mph and sustain 80. Yes, your motorscooter is smaller and lighter than most people would care to deal with, but as an enthusiast, you will learn to compensate and ultimately wear your abilities as a badge of accomplishment and honor. And rightly so.



--Keys

[San Francisco]

I guess one has to take things in the context of where one is riding. I am speaking from riding in the San Francisco Bay Area, where everyone drives like idiots.

Sure, on the back "country roads" one can toodle on Buddy sized scooters, but get on the freeway it's a death trap waiting to be sprung. Reality is, scooters cannot mingle on the Bay Area interstates. And even on the back roads cars still move in unpredictable and careless ways, so much so that one needs some extra power to get out of harm's way.

Validation of my points is evident when one considers three facts:

1) In the Bay Area I have never seen a scooter on the highways, nor for that matter, even on the back roads;

2) There are even few motorcycles on the Bay Area freeways. I can ride from San Francisco to San Jose and see maybe two or three bikes the entire round trip; and

3) Seems almost daily that the news mentions yet another motorcycle fatality on the freeway. Fact is, riding motorcycles on Bay Area roads is an accident waiting to happen.

Maybe where he will be riding does not have conditions similar to those experienced in the Bay Area, but he did mention that he may take the interstate at times, as part of the commute. IMHO all it takes is one time on the freeway for an accident to occur.

I still think he needs what I would call a "commuter scooter" meaning a scooter with large tires, some overall heft, good power/acceleration and some comfort [a large comfortable seat, windshield, superior suspension, easy to operate controls].

IMHO Buddy-type scooters are perfect for around town commuting, trips to the market, friends' houses, etc. , but NOT long distance commutes [to me 60 miles round trip is a long commute].

[paige]

My husband regularly rides scooters and a motorcycle 120 mile round trip on his commute to work. From the East Bay to the South Bay, 24, 980, 580, 880, 237, 101, 85, and all the bridges. Scooters are capable machines. Bikes are everywhere. Do you ride during commute hours? Do you ride outside the city? Do you ask where all those bikes parked in the financial district come from? It takes skill and balls to ride in the Bay Area. I don't commute, so I can pick and choose when and if I want to go over the bridge or up to Napa. But I do it. All the time. It is a calculated risk to ride a two wheeled vehicle in the Bay Area, but it is also to drive here. You play the hand you are dealt. I know a bunch of people that ride only in the city, or in the sun, and many more that have a scooter as a sole form of transportation. They are out in the rain, in the dark, trying to dodge the streetcar tracks and the deadly Muni buses, but they are out there, riding. Maybe commuting thirty miles on a bike as a newbie is ambitious, but the OP is looking for a new way, cause the one he/ she has isn't working.

[jaded]

Validation of my points is evident when one considers three facts:

1) In the Bay Area I have never seen a scooter on the highways, nor for that matter, even on the back roads;

2) There are even few motorcycles on the Bay Area freeways. I can ride from San Francisco to San Jose and see maybe two or three bikes the entire round trip; and

1) Look out tomorrow for the contingent of scooters riding on the freeway from SF to San Jose, then meeting up with a larger contingent of scooters for the 3 Peaks Challenge, to ride Mount Hamilton, Mount Diablo and Mount Tam, including all the freeways in-between and the Richmond Bridge.
I personally ride my scoot on the back roads of the SF area and the East Bay quite often, as do many of my friends.

2)I commute several times a week from SF to San Jose (not on my scoot, but that's my personal choice). I see more motorcycles than I can shake a stick at, both directions, at all times of the day.

[San Francisco]

My husband regularly rides scooters and a motorcycle 120 mile round trip on his commute to work. From the East Bay to the South Bay, 24, 980, 580, 880, 237, 101, 85, and all the bridges. Scooters are capable machines. Bikes are everywhere. Do you ride during commute hours? Do you ride outside the city? Do you ask where all those bikes parked in the financial district come from? It takes skill and balls to ride in the Bay Area. I don't commute, so I can pick and choose when and if I want to go over the bridge or up to Napa. But I do it. All the time. It is a calculated risk to ride a two wheeled vehicle in the Bay Area, but it is also to drive here. You play the hand you are dealt. I know a bunch of people that ride only in the city, or in the sun, and many more that have a scooter as a sole form of transportation. They are out in the rain, in the dark, trying to dodge the streetcar tracks and the deadly Muni buses, but they are out there, riding. Maybe commuting thirty miles on a bike as a newbie is ambitious, but the OP is looking for a new way, cause the one he/ she has isn't working.

Actually I race bikes. And I was born in San Francisco and have ridden bikes of all kind within the City limits and up and down California. I have tackled the hills on Harleys, R1s, Ducatis, F4is, Vespas, mopeds, and others. So don't make assumptions about balls. It seems you have misinterpreted my posts as an indication that I'm some kind of know nothing pansy.

Fact is, for the number of cars that there are on the road in the Bay Area there are very, very few motorcycles.

And if you count how many bikes there are in the Financial District [I have, because my office is in that area] there are in fact very few bikes and scooters in comparison to how many cars there are and how many people work downtown.

In fact, do YOU know how many motorcycle spaces there are in the Financial District? I do because there was a proposal to increase the number from the few parking spaces that there are in the District. I don't think that less than 100 motorcycle spaces would cause one to conclude that there are a lot of motorcyclists in this town nor to wonder "Gee, where did all these bikes come from?"

And living in the City and and watching the news I can recall the many times riders have got injured or killed in and around the City [recall the one at the toll plaza this week where a 52 year old on a cruiser on his way to work at 5:30 a.m. was killed when a Honda changed lanes and the bike ran into it].

The OP is asking about what size scooter is best for his commute. I don't think stories about having balls helps much in that regard.

And I totally disagree that in the Bay Area there are many scooters on the freeways, if that is what you were implying. In all my years of driving and riding on the freeways I would have noticed a "Buddy-sized" scooter on the freeways. A few times I have seen scooters less than 250 cc in size getting on the freeway and then off the next exit. But never have I seen one commuting.

[healingpath]

Well, thank you all for your experiences and thoughts about this theme of
mine. I'm looking forward to learning as I go, staying safe as I can, and finding out what the machine and I want to and can realistically do together.
The search, for now, is over, by the way. After a few more days of talking with people, checking out a couple a like-new used bikes, and actually getting to test ride both a Buddy and a People 150, my local dealer - Richard at Centaur Cycles and Scooters in Santa Fe - made me an offer on an 07 People (big wheels) that I decided was too good to pass up, so I bought it. I haven't picked it up yet, maybe tomorrow, weather permitting, and when I do I'll be taking my first 30 mile ride home on it. Even though I only got to ride the Buddy for a few minutes, I can say I have a much better understanding of the enthusiasm you all have for it. It really impressed me as a great little bike. I could easily get excited about it. I also felt that the People was a great ride too. Bottom line seems to be that these are simply high quality machines, and I suspect that folks who ride them can't go wrong, keeping within those lines of what's real for the inherent limitations of each. I know I'm gonna be staying off of the interstate, at least until I learn the bike. I may want to try it, or I may not, depending on what I do learn. I'm feeling more confident about its ability to handle the two lane state road pretty easily though. We'll see. I'll also be taking the MSF course last weekend of the month, and expect that that will be thoroughly helpful. Like dru suggested: if I find that I need to trade up to something bigger, well, I guess I'll find a way to do that. Meantime, I'm waiting for the wind to die down so I can start riding.

[San Francisco]

Validation of my points is evident when one considers three facts:

1) In the Bay Area I have never seen a scooter on the highways, nor for that matter, even on the back roads;

2) There are even few motorcycles on the Bay Area freeways. I can ride from San Francisco to San Jose and see maybe two or three bikes the entire round trip; and

1) Look out tomorrow for the contingent of scooters riding on the freeway from SF to San Jose, then meeting up with a larger contingent of scooters for the 3 Peaks Challenge, to ride Mount Hamilton, Mount Diablo and Mount Tam, including all the freeways in-between and the Richmond Bridge.
I personally ride my scoot on the back roads of the SF area and the East Bay quite often, as do many of my friends.

2)I commute several times a week from SF to San Jose (not on my scoot, but that's my personal choice). I see more motorcycles than I can shake a stick at, both directions, at all times of the day.

Well, I don't think special events count. Fact is, in a commute situation Vespa and Buddy scooters have no business being on the freeways. And as far as I can tell, most scooterists know this because I never see them on the freeways.

I don't think that the occasional rogue on a 150 cc scooter who does venture on to the freeways evidences that scooters on freeways is the norm. In fact, if I saw someone commuting in 70 mph++ traffic on a little scooter, I'd label that person a fool. [But that's my personal opinion].

And the fact remains, there are not that many motorcycles on the Bay Area freeways.

So the OP can glean whatever he wants from all this. He did the right thing in asking for opinions. And he sure got the full range, from "have some balls" to "be careful out there."

[jgalar]

The problem I have with the scooter market is the 250cc range scoots are overpriced. For what you pay for a 250cc scoot you can buy a 250cc-650cc Japanese motorcycle.

[San Francisco]

The problem I have with the scooter market is the 250cc range scoots are overpriced. For what you pay for a 250cc scoot you can buy a 250cc-650cc Japanese motorcycle.

That is true. In fact just today, after work, I was walking near the
Embarcadero Center. There was a Honda Helix parked on the curb.

I was looking at it and thought that it might as well have been a motorcycle.
Thing was huge. And it looked expensive.

But like I said, I dunno anything about those. Is a Honda Helix even considered a scooter?

[Keys]

The Helix is considered a scooter by our club based on the small diameter wheels and step-through design. Guess that's why they let my wife in...since that's what she rides. Also, both Motorcyclist and Scoot! Magazine list it as a scooter in their buyers guides. Yes it is huge...it's as long as the Kawasaki Drifter 1500 that a guy I work with rides. Weighs less, though... But my wife loves it.

--Keys

[sunshinen]

The OP is asking about what size scooter is best for his commute. I don't think stories about having balls helps much in that regard.

There is a big difference between saying "It takes skill and balls" and saying "if you don't, you have no balls." I took paige's point to be that it isn't easy or necessarily the wisest choice... but there are people who do do it and it helps if they can choose when they ride. (more on this in a minute)

And the OP is commuting in New Mexico, so perhaps a debate on the horrors of San Francisco traffic is not the most helpful either.

[sunshinen]

People's assumptions/limitations about what a scooter is/can do always surprise me. Why wouldn't it be a scooter just because it is a bigger scooter? Why should a Japanese motorcycle be worth more than a scooter? Clearly, we have a different value system.

(Pardon me, while I wax idealistic)
With motorcycles it seems everyone has this idea that you have to move up in size to really get what you want. I'm of the mindset where I want to move down. I want to use less metal, less gas. I want to pay for a smaller house and leave less waste for the next generation. People have made cross country trips on the Honda Metropolitan—I'm pretty sure the Buddy can do quite a lot that the "bigger is better" crowd don't want to believe it can.

I think those of us who have chosen to make the Buddy our primary form of transportation have developed a much bigger idea of just how much we CAN do on a scooter. It's kind of like learning that even though it wasn't a truck or an SUV, my little car is completely competent at taking me camping, carrying a couple mountain bikes, and navigating off road. When you love what you ride (or only have one form of transportation), you find out what it can really do simply by asking it to. Sometimes you may take that past the point of reason, or at least past where other reasonable people would, but sometimes, life simply must be lived past the point of reason.

[sunshinen]

The search, for now, is over, by the way. After a few more days of talking with people, checking out a couple a like-new used bikes, and actually getting to test ride both a Buddy and a People 150, my local dealer - Richard at Centaur Cycles and Scooters in Santa Fe - made me an offer on an 07 People (big wheels) that I decided was too good to pass up, so I bought it.
... Meantime, I'm waiting for the wind to die down so I can start riding.

Mean old wind die down! Congrats healingpath. I had a 50cc People for a short bit and it was a great ride even at 50cc. Ride safe.

[San Francisco]

The OP is asking about what size scooter is best for his commute. I don't think stories about having balls helps much in that regard.

There is a big difference between saying "It takes skill and balls" and saying "if you don't, you have no balls." I took paige's point to be that it isn't easy or necessarily the wisest choice... but there are people who do do it and it helps if they can choose when they ride. (more on this in a minute)

And the OP is commuting in New Mexico, so perhaps a debate on the horrors of San Francisco traffic is not the most helpful either.

Well, in reading the overall tone of the post, it was clear that the post was saying I had no balls.

And see my post. I discussed small scooters, small tires, highway
speeds, no power to get out of a tight spot, etc. These factors apply no
matter where one is riding a scooter.

And he did mention perhaps taking the interstate. Far as I know, any
interstate in the U. S. involves cars hauling ass, typically 15 to 20 miles
per hour in excess of the posted speed limit.

So my tips and opinions apply to any commute, any small scooter, on any
road in the U.S. I only cited the SF Bay Area as an example of personal
experience. If I did not cite examples, then I would have gotten the kind
of response I did, which was basically that I did not know what I was
talking about.

But hey whatever, the OP can glean what he wants from our opinions.

[healingpath]

(Pardon me, while I wax idealistic)
With motorcycles it seems everyone has this idea that you have to move up in size to really get what you want. I'm of the mindset where I want to move down. I want to use less metal, less gas. I want to pay for a smaller house and leave less waste for the next generation. People have made cross country trips on the Honda Metropolitan—I'm pretty sure the Buddy can do quite a lot that the "bigger is better" crowd don't want to believe it can.

Well, thanks again for your little bit different view of things. I tend to share some of these ideas, if you haven't already noticed. And thanks for the good wishes with my new 150, which I still haven't ridden due to bad weather. Maybe tomorrow. (!!!)

[healingpath]

[/quote]
But hey whatever, the OP can glean what he wants from our opinions.[/quote]

Thank you for your consideration of the dangers of interstate travel on a small scooter. You are not alone in your views, of course, and, there are clearly other views as well. I'd like to think that I'm not kidding myself, and that having made the choice to purchase and ride a smaller scooter will preclude certain travel options, like high speed freeways. For the most part, I have no problem with this reality. I admit though that there is also a part of me that MAY want to, at some future point, when I think I've honed my skills a bit, try out the (relatively) short stretch of interstate (5 miles +/-) that COULD be, but doesn't have to be, part of my commute. One reason for my curiosity is the fact that this stretch of highway- which is two lanes in either direction, separated by a very wide median of probably 100 feet - is almost always moving more slowly in the right lane, due to some slow moving vehicle or another, and I often/regularly find myself, in my car, and by choice, driving at a slower speed in this lane. By slower I mean anywhere from 50 to 65 mph, while the left lane might be moving at 75 or 80 or 85. I can't help but think about it, and at the same time, I believe I understand the potential for danger. And I won't/can't know how or if I'll approach this specific challenge at least until I have some considerable experience under my belt. I'm quite sure that I'm not thinking at all about regular long haul freeway travel on a 150cc bike.

Also, I'd like to offer my support for your offended balls. I truly appreciate your caution and good sense, and don't see any of it at all as a question of balls at all.

[polianarchy]

Also, I'd like to offer my support for your offended balls.

BEST!!! EVER!!!

/12-year-old maturity level

[paige]

Sunshinen, thank you for clarifying my point for me.

[San Francisco]

Also, I'd like to offer my support for your offended balls. I truly appreciate your caution and good sense,
and don't see any of it at all as a question of balls at all.
_______________________________

I can assure you mine were not offended.

And I agree safe riding is never a question of having balls. In fact, it's
when riders go on to these boards and start talking about "having balls" that the newbies get into trouble.

On some of the motorcyle boards I belong to we "cut the balls off," so to speak,
of members who talk about wheelies, chicken strips, how fast have you
gone on the freeway, how much can you lean into turns on mountain roads, and other nonsense.

The reason we cut those people off is because there are newbies who will
get caught up in the chat and stupidly think that they have to do such stunts
in order to be one of the guys or "to have balls."

Bonus comment: I regret to inform you that your new scooter cannot pull wheelies.

[vitaminC]

On some of the motorcyle boards I belong to we "cut the balls off," so to speak,
of members who talk about wheelies, chicken strips, how fast have you
gone on the freeway, how much can you lean into turns on mountain roads, and other nonsense.

I'm guessing you're not talking about BARF!

[San Francisco]

On some of the motorcyle boards I belong to we "cut the balls off," so to speak,
of members who talk about wheelies, chicken strips, how fast have you
gone on the freeway, how much can you lean into turns on mountain roads, and other nonsense.

I'm guessing you're not talking about BARF!

Although I am a member of BARF, I have not been on there for years, for
the reason you are implying.

[louie]

(Pardon me, while I wax idealistic)
With motorcycles it seems everyone has this idea that you have to move up in size to really get what you want. I'm of the mindset where I want to move down. I want to use less metal, less gas. I want to pay for a smaller house and leave less waste for the next generation. People have made cross country trips on the Honda Metropolitan—I'm pretty sure the Buddy can do quite a lot that the "bigger is better" crowd don't want to believe it can.

Well, thanks again for your little bit different view of things. I tend to share some of these ideas, if you haven't already noticed. And thanks for the good wishes with my new 150, which I still haven't ridden due to bad weather. Maybe tomorrow. (!!!)

Come on down, it's great, it's enough, it managable and i love it.

[dru_]

In an ideal world we could all afford to have two (or more!) scooters. One for the daily grind, and one for the fun runs.

For me, that would be a Red Buddy 125 for the daily grind, and an Aprilia Scarabeo 500 gt for the weekend runs into the mountains with my cruiser and sport tourer riding friends.

What you may notice is that, though I have ridden sport bikes and cruiser's, they don't hold the appeal of a twist-n-go, and that I don't need a liter bike that is an invitation for trouble. Yet I do enjoy a cruise with these friends, and I'm perfectly happy to use my massive amounts of storage on my scooter to haul lunch and drinks while some of them blast through the twisties at speeds I'm unwilling to run at on any machine.

It's a choice, and for me, it's not about cost, and I would say that for 90% of the two wheel purchasing public in the US, once you've made the choice to buy a bike, the decision over style comes before the decision over price. Yes, maxi-scooters are priced higher than the small displacement bikes.

However, the scale from the low end to the high end of the relative price spectrums is far greater. From ~$1700 for a 50cc to around $7500 for a loaded 600cc maxi, while the bike's start in the ~$2500 range for a 250, and range upwards of ~$20k for a decked out 1300cc cruiser. It's all about what you want.

I would say that most of the scooter owners on the various boards own them as transportation first, entertainment second. I would say that the reverse is true on the sportbike, and cruiser boards. The only other group of riders that I see as commuters are the small displacement cruisers (who tend to get chased out of the normal cruiser boards) and the sport tourers.

Because of that, stating what a scooter can't do in this venue is kinda like aggravating a snake an then putting your hand in front of it. It's going to get bitten.

I know that I personally get alot of comments about the 'toy' and 'getting a real bike' from riders outside the group that's run up into the twisties with me (on my People 250 which I chose as a compromise since I couldn't have two bikes). They love to tell me about what a scooter can't do. I just nod, and roll with it, after all, I only have to listen to them on warm sunny Saturdays and Sundays, because their bikes apparently can't be ridden in the cold, or in the rain, or to grocery for a $100 grocery trip, or to work.

In other words, to each their own.

[sunshinen]

Because of that, stating what a scooter can't do in this venue is kinda like aggravating a snake an then putting your hand in front of it. It's going to get bitten. ...

They love to tell me about what a scooter can't do. I just nod, and roll with it, after all, I only have to listen to them on warm sunny Saturdays and Sundays, because their bikes apparently can't be ridden in the cold, or in the rain, or to grocery for a $100 grocery trip, or to work.

In other words, to each their own.

Well put. Any time you state what can't be done or is never done, you're asking those with experience to the contrary to step forward and disagree.

I love how the bikers are suddenly noticing my helmet, and saying, "Ooh, still a bit chilly to be riding." When I've been riding all winter. I just smile and say, "Yep, at least it's a bit warmer than it was yesterday." And I mean that smile. I love being the only 2-wheeler in the parking lot. I love when the motorcycle parking is so full that I have to squeeze in behind a big cruiser. And I love that there are always a couple hard core cyclists with their bikes on the racks well before I roll in—rain, shine, or freezing temps. As you said, to each their own.

[jgalar]

My comment about motorcycles compared to scooters concerns the cost of manufacture to price.

It is far more expensive to manufacture a motorcycle than a scooter. Most of a scooter is either stamped out, injection molded, or pressed to form. There are more machined parts in a motorcycle's transmission than there is in an entire scooter. Plus a Japanese product is of better quality than either a Taiwan or Italian manufactured item.

So why are scooters so expensive!

[dru_]

My comment about motorcycles compared to scooters concerns the cost of manufacture to price.

It is far more expensive to manufacture a motorcycle than a scooter. Most of a scooter is either stamped out, injection molded, or pressed to form. There are more machined parts in a motorcycle's transmission than there is in an entire scooter. Plus a Japanese product is of better quality than either a Taiwan or Italian manufactured item.

So why are scooters so expensive!

Oh that's the easy one. Economy of Scale. The volume costs of producing a scooter are marginally lower (though, if you know enough about manufacturing and you've torn the covers off a modern scooter that isn't named 'Vespa', you'll know that a motorcycle and a modern scooter share more than you think). However, in terms of units produced, they are still outnumbered by motorcycles.

If you take the body work off a Buddy, you'll quickly note that it's a tubular frame just like 90% of the motorcycles on the road, and the plastic is the same injected plastic as a modern motorcycle fairing, though there is more of it than on most motorcycles, and that raises the cost.

Then there are the mechanicals. The cost to manufacture the odd transmission/swingarm/engine layout that is unique to the scooter is disproportionately high to the cost of the more traditional chain and belt drives found on most motorcycles, and when you add to that the relatively speaking, low volume, your prices go up.

To make matters worse, in the US, scooters are considered to be 'luxury' items, and as such they get a higher mark up. The Buddy, if you think about it is a good example.

* Low Volume Production (under 10k units per year is my guess)
* Imported to the US by a second company (figure +25% markup)
* Distributed to the US dealers (figure another +20% markup)
* Sold to the consumer (figure +10% markup)

Meanwhile, looking at Honda, you can take one %25 markup out of the equation, pad the consumer markup upwards by another 10% and still come in cheaper on higher volume bikes. We know for a fact that American Honda is the most profitable motorcycle vendor in the world per unit, which I think is *very* telling about what the real markups are in the US marketplace.

[gt1000]

Plus a Japanese product is of better quality than either a Taiwan or Italian manufactured item.

This was probably true a few years ago but the playing field is now evening out. As companies like Toyota and Honda get bigger and bigger, they're finding it harder to maintain quality standards. Want proof? Look at some of the recent recalls of these brands. One great example is the engine sludge issue in Toyota 4's and 3 liter V-6's. Germany too has always had a great reputation for quality but check recent customer satisfaction indexes for BMW, MB and VW and you'll find some shocking failures. And while Japanese motorcycles and scooters are probably somewhat more reliable than their Italian, Taiwanese, Chinese and Indian counterparts, they're just as expensive, if not more so, to fix. The German stuff is even worse.

It's funny. When I was growing up in the '60's, a sticker that said "Made in Japan" meant that it was crap. That changed very quickly to a badge of honor but, if they don't get their acts together quickly, the pendulum will swing back.

[Puddle Jumper]

[quote="JeremyZ"] in the dead of the Chicago winter. quote]
Slightly off theme here, but I too have been debating about the Buddy, but vs Vespa 150 vs Vespa ET4. Like the original post, I'm looking for great mileage and reliability. Now it sounds like I need to look at wheel size too....
Here's the deal, one of the potential riders (I know it won't be long before we get 2 if they are as fun as you all say!)... is 5'2 and 108lbs, and would have a commute of 20 miles one way of 30-55mph.
(Jeremy, or anyone else out there from the Chicago burbs... you would understand the commute... it's almost a straight shot on 176 from Wauconda to the Medical School on Green Bay Road... stop, stop and go,go, forested areas, slight hills, some truck/construction traffic, 2 high schools to pass, and train tracks to deal with)
What would you suggest? I really like the Vespa look of quality... (used would be the only option here)... but how do they compare to the Buddy? (4cy is nice.)
Thanks for any input out there!!

[jgalar]

The economy of scale goes to the manufacture of scooters. There are far more scooters sold world wide than motorcycles. There are probably more scooters purchased in Vietnam in a year than the total motorcycle/scooter sales in the US. In Asia the primary vehicle for business and personal use is the scooter.

[San Francisco]

in the dead of the Chicago winter. quote]
Slightly off theme here, but I too have been debating about the Buddy, but vs Vespa 150 vs Vespa ET4. Like the original post, I'm looking for great mileage and reliability. Now it sounds like I need to look at wheel size too....
Here's the deal, one of the potential riders (I know it won't be long before we get 2 if they are as fun as you all say!)... is 5'2 and 108lbs, and would have a commute of 20 miles one way of 30-55mph.
(Jeremy, or anyone else out there from the Chicago burbs... you would understand the commute... it's almost a straight shot on 176 from Wauconda to the Medical School on Green Bay Road... stop, stop and go,go, forested areas, slight hills, some truck/construction traffic, 2 high schools to pass, and train tracks to deal with)
What would you suggest? I really like the Vespa look of quality... (used would be the only option here)... but how do they compare to the Buddy? (4cy is nice.)
Thanks for any input out there!!

There's a few requirements your scooter is going to need. I'll post a video
review of the Buddy 125 in a separate thread, but keep in mind:

1. For the price of one Vespa you can get two Buddies. You will pay a lot
to simply say "It's a Vespa."

2. The Buddy has a lower seat height. My female friend who is
supposedly 5' 4" fits the Buddy OK, but her toes touch the ground.
Actually, almost half her foot touches the ground. That's pretty good.
Sidenote: I think she has been fibbing to me, she may be 5' 2"

3. She used to ride the manual shift Bajaj Chetak. She cannot rave
enough how easy it is to ride the Buddy. I think a lot of this has to do
with how well balanced and light the Buddy is compared to her old
scooter.

4. I was able to pop a brief wheelie on the Buddy yesterday. So I have
revised my opinion on power. Off the line, the Buddy has good take off.
And it gets up to 50 mph, indicated, quite quickly. At intersections when
the light turned green, I was able to leave traffic behind me, even the
cabs, who are always flooring it when the traffic lights say "bolt."

5. The Buddy is pretty light, so if there is lots of wind you have to keep
in mind that the Buddy can get blown around, especially at higher speeds.
When I was tooling at about 35 mph a blast of wind hit me sideways and
I actually was tilted to one side, just a few degrees, but nevertheless
it caused me to say "whoa."

6. San Francisco was declared as the city with the worst roads in the
U. S. The Buddy handled the ruts, pot holes and other junk quite well.
The suspension is damn nice. So you should be able to handle any
construction sites, etc., with ease.

So all in all I'd say the Buddy is a fine commuting machine as long as you
stay off the freeways or interstate [see my other posts].

Bonus Tip: I am now recommending that all Buddy owners get the Prima
pipe. Although it makes the Buddy sound cool, it emits a noise loud enough
that people in cars can hear you coming. I have watched people suddenly
look in my direction when they see me coming. That kind of alert is
priceless IMHO.

[sunshinen]

in the dead of the Chicago winter. quote]
Slightly off theme here, but I too have been debating about the Buddy, but vs Vespa 150 vs Vespa ET4. Like the original post, I'm looking for great mileage and reliability. Now it sounds like I need to look at wheel size too....
Here's the deal, one of the potential riders (I know it won't be long before we get 2 if they are as fun as you all say!)... is 5'2 and 108lbs, and would have a commute of 20 miles one way of 30-55mph.

... it's almost a straight shot on 176 from Wauconda to the Medical School on Green Bay Road... stop, stop and go,go, forested areas, slight hills, some truck/construction traffic, 2 high schools to pass, and train tracks to deal with)

I'm just an inch smaller than your potential rider. The Buddy was one of the few scooters with a seat height I felt comfy on. I still have to tip toe if I don't wear a boot with a heal or platform, but it has a nice low center of gravity that really helps with keeping it balanced.

I have a similar-sounding ride 1 to 2 times a week. Works great. Though, I'm not fond of the construction and I don't ride if there is a strong wind advisory.

To my understanding, the Buddy's gas mileage is a lot better than a Vespa's.

[healingpath]

Well, I have to say thank you again to everyone who was good enough to respond to my initial questions about commuting. I was given a lot to think about, good suggestions, valuable experience, some things I could relate with and some not. I've now had the chance to ride to and from town on three occassions, to experience first hand some of the issues I'll face commuting on a small bike, to run around in town on it, and in general to become a little more familiar with the whole scooter phenomenon. Here's what I've found out:

1) As I was told, the bike isn't appropriate for freeway/interstate use
2) I CAN commute 30 miles each way without any serious problems or even challenges, at least thus far
3) Riding a scooter requires a lot more muscle effort than I would have thought - hands, back, arms, neck, all subject to unimagined demands
4) An important consideration in choosing a scooter/bike, which no one mentioned, and which I did not think of either, is the bike's weight, and how much weight a person will be able to realistically handle at speed zero, or very low speed, such as rolling the bike, or even getting it up onto its center stand, and certainly in keeping it upright under conditions of compromised balance. I've already experienced a couple of situations where I think I would have dropped the bike if it had been a 250 weighing a hundred+ pounds more than my 150.
5) Finding that balance of capabilities (both the bike's and the rider's) and needs is a creative enterprise, with some formula components, and some very much more personal considerations. For example, I could say that now knowing the limitations of the 150, I might want a larger bike so as to be able to ride the freeway. However, I would also have to say that, factoring in all of the other "needs" that I have for a bike (ie., high fuel economy, manageable weight, the road-readiness of the bike for the actual roads that I HAVE to travel, speeds that I might feel comfortable traveling at, etc.), this 150 is entirely adequate for the job. What the future holds is anyone's guess
6) keeping track of all the new details of riding a 2 wheeler is another challenge I didn't think of. For you experienced riders, all of this is very old hat, but for a newbee, it's another one of the adjustments to be made: keeping track of keys and locks and chains and covers and helmets and jackets and other sundry cargo; to top-case or not to top-case, and then which one if yes; how about saddle bags; how much weight to realistically add to this little machine before really compromising its performance

There's probably more, but this is all I can think of right now. I'm enjoying the ride, I'm happy to say.

[louie]

healingpath, I'm also a newby. The first time i was on a bike was at the basic riding course in October 06. before taking the course I took a written test at DMV that got me my liscence to ride, but I didn't know how. In fact I wasn't sure if i would even want to ride. I did . I learned so much that weekend. The curriculum is well formulated and followed, the teachers were fantastic, and it has the best track record for successful students. My odds for safe riding sky rocketd. I understand time and experience makes a safe rider; but I don't have time to get around the learning curve and I can't bounce through the school of hard knocks so I took the course. I think i remember you writing that you were going to take it. Take the course and confidence in your knowledge will put a lot of things in place. I'd bet.

The center stand Steve my salesman taught me to
face the side of the scooter
one hand on hand grip and the other on the back rack.
right foot on the center stand
look about 10 yards behing the scooter
gently place both pegs on the ground
with lots of weight push the stand
reach the scooter toward where your lookin (behind the scooter about 10 yards)

At this point commuting 30 miles is more than I'd consider doing everyday. I'm pretty sure my body would rebel.

Welcome

[healingpath]

healingpath, Take the course and confidence in your knowledge will put a lot of things in place. I'd bet.

I'm scheduled to take it all next weekend. Looking forward to it, and I'm sure it will be informative and very helpful.

[louie]

[I'm scheduled to take it all next weekend. Looking forward to it, and I'm sure it will be informative and very helpful.

and fun don't forget about the fun