Battery Question :)

AlleyOops · Post by **AlleyOops** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:51 pm

Hey all.. so I went to start up my scooter this morning and could not get the key in the ignition at first. It almost seemed like it was stuck inbetween the on and off positions? After some wiggling and jiggling I got it in and it turned fine.

It appears as though the battery is dead (I've only had the scooter for 2 months, not even). If it was somehow on the "on" position could this have killed the battery?

AFter going inside and sulking for about 10 min I remembered I had a kick start. (DUH!) Got it started no problem and headed off to the grocery store. When leaving the grocery store. I.could.NOT get the damn thing started for the life of me. Stood out there for 20 min or so until some sweet old man tried to help, and then some younger guy came over and finally got it going for me.

So.. my questions, 1. could I have killed the battery by somehow magially leaving it "on" with no keys in? and 2. Do I need a new battery alreadY? OR can I just buy a battery charger?

Thanks!

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:54 pm

Yes, leaving the key on would drain the battery. Charge the battery back to full and you should be fine.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:42 pm

Get the bike started (either kickstart it or jumpstart it from a car that is not running) and go for a long ride. An hour should be fun... I mean "fine". Odds are that will be enough to revive the battery. If not, a battery charger would be a good investment and worth a try. Last resort is a new battery.

tortoise · Post by **tortoise** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:43 pm

AlleyOops wrote:Do I need a new battery

Related post.

Mousenut · Post by **Mousenut** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:28 pm

WNY = battery tender

I checked that box day one when we bought our baby

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:08 pm

+1 to previous posts.

You lucky folks that have electricity next to your scoots....

this fall as the temps drop again I'll get a 2nd battery and rotate them off the tender in the house. I did have to kickstart mine a few times once it sat a few days in extreme cold, but it seems to be fine now. I also drive it nearly every single day, so...

AlleyOops · Post by **AlleyOops** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:17 am

Thanks guys! I ordered a battery tender jr.. And might take her out for a nice long ride tomorrow.... Without stopping anywhere, I'm terrified now I'll get stranded somewhere and not be able to kick start it.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:49 am

Is your key switch working properly now (key in/out, power on/off)? Otherwise this will keep happening.

AlleyOops · Post by **AlleyOops** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:28 am

PeteH wrote:Is your key switch working properly now (key in/out, power on/off)? Otherwise this will keep happening.

Yea it seems totally fine now, I have no idea what happened. I think my fiancé moved the scooter in/out of the garage while he was cleaning, but I'm not even sure how he would have managed to get it jammed between on/off.

Bluduh · Post by **Bluduh** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:56 pm

@Alley - The Battery Tender Junior is a fine product. I have one and I use it for my scooters, cars, lawn equipment, etc. One caution is that I would not leave the battery tender on for a very long time, like hours and hours or days. I think it has a light that goes green when the charge is full up. When you see that, go ahead and disconnect it.

@Everyone else. The reason I say this (*please*, no flames, bullets, grenades mortar/RPG rounds!) is that some have experienced (myself included) damage to SMALL batteries when left on the battery tender (Jr.!) too long. I know, I know some of you leave the battery tender on indefinitely. That's what it was designed for. But some small batteries, like scooters batteries, appear to have little tolerance for overcharging. Others may be robust enough to take the few milliamps of "maintenance" charge forever. But *in my opinion* , why take the chance of having to *replace* the battery after inadvertently cooking it. Just disconnect it within a reasonable time after reaching full charge.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:39 pm

Bluduh wrote:@Alley - The Battery Tender Junior is a fine product. I have one and I use it for my scooters, cars, lawn equipment, etc. One caution is that I would not leave the battery tender on for a very long time, like hours and hours or days. I think it has a light that goes green when the charge is full up. When you see that, go ahead and disconnect it.

@Everyone else. The reason I say this (*please*, no flames, bullets, grenades mortar/RPG rounds!) is that some have experienced (myself included) damage to SMALL batteries when left on the battery tender (Jr.!) too long. I know, I know some of you leave the battery tender on indefinitely. That's what it was designed for. But some small batteries, like scooters batteries, appear to have little tolerance for overcharging. Others may be robust enough to take the few milliamps of "maintenance" charge forever. But *in my opinion* , why take the chance of having to *replace* the battery after inadvertently cooking it. Just disconnect it within a reasonable time after reaching full charge.

I thought the Battery Tender Jr. has circuitry that prevents overcharging. I think that's why it's so popular. I could be wrong, but that was the conclusion I had come to somehow. I imagine I must have read it somewhere.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:45 pm

Yup. This is from their website:

"The Battery Tender® Junior (BTJR) battery charger has microprocessor controlled power electronic circuitry which enables it to preform and safely control a number of sophisticated charging functions, well beyond the capability of inexpensive trickle chargers. Some legacy marketing literature refers to the BTJR as a “Trickle Charger with a Brain”. That description was based in context on two parts, first the relatively low output current, and second, the reduced level of charge control sophistication on earlier BTJR models relative to the BT Plus. Since mid-2006 the only major functional difference between the BTJR and the BT Plus is the maximum amplitude of the charger current, 0.75 and 1.25 amperes, respectively. Even though the marketing description may still be applicable, again, in a limited context, we can say now that the BTJR has a larger brain that enables it to create maximum charge effectiveness with minimal output current amplitude.

After connecting the BTJR to a battery and then applying AC power, it first conducts a number of checks during Initialization Mode to ensure that the battery functioning normally. Then it will deliver its full charge at a constant rate of 0.75 amperes. This is called the Bulk Charge Mode. The battery voltage will rise and when it reaches a predetermined level the BTJR will hold the battery charge voltage constant at that level, allowing the charge current amplitude to drop. This is the Absorption Charge Mode. The Absorption Charge Mode is complete when the battery charge current drops below a very low value, usually below 1/8 ampere. Some BTJR models have timers to limit the duration of the Absorption Charge Mode.

After the current drops or the allotted time expires (typically several hours), the BTJR automatically switches to a Float / Maintenance Charge Mode. The purpose of the Float / Maintenance Charge Mode is to maintain the battery voltage just slightly (typically between 1/10 and ½ volt) above where it would be if it were fully charged and sitting at rest. This keeps the battery topped off at voltages well below the gassing voltage of a lead acid battery.

Based on price alone, trickle chargers often appear to be a better economic choice for the typical consumer, but trickle chargers do not have the advantage of sophisticated electronic control. Therefore, as they allow the value of charge current to trickle down to what appears to be safe levels, the output voltage of the charger may very well rise to an unacceptably high level, sometimes even going higher than 16 VDC depending on the charger type and the battery that is connected to it. This magnitude of voltage is far above the gassing voltage of a lead acid battery. If the battery remains connected to this high level of voltage for an extended period of time, extreme damage may be done to the battery. Without Battery Tender® type electronic safety controls, what appears to be an initial cost savings for the charger may actually cost several times the charger price in replacement batteries."

I understand your concern that even a tiny bit of overcharge might hurt a tiny scooter battery. But I suspect they wouldn't market so heavily to motorcycle/scooter owners if this were the case. Also judging from the widespread use by scooter owners, if there were a problem, we probably would have heard about it.

Bluduh · Post by **Bluduh** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:03 pm

All very true. The Battery Tender products are very well engineered, designed, programmed, and manufactured products that seem to do exactly what they are designed to do. I love mine. The unknown in this system is the battery you are hooking it up to. No one knows it's exact condition. Even the same exact model/part number battery varies a little from one individual battery to the next. I think it is because each of the individual cells that are strung together in series to make up the 12 volts (or what ever) are not exactly identical.

I have just had (and heard of) a couple of cases where a small battery that was not old or damaged or abused, simply would not hold a full charge after being on the BTJR for a few days. Maybe the battery was just defective to begin with, who knows. May have had nothing to do with the BTJR. My only point is that, if it is convenient, go ahead and remove the BTJR when the charge is complete. It's the lowest risk approach. You might be able to get a few more months out of a marginal battery, especially after an accidental TOTAL discharge. Total discharge just seems to do strange and unpredictable things to *some* multi-cell batteries.

But if you *need* to leave it connected for long periods, go ahead, these batteries are not THAT expensive anyway

, and the BTs are designed for this use. I know the BTs are routinely left connected for months to large, expensive, deep discharge marine batteries without ill effect. It's just with these small batteries that I tend to be a little more careful.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:10 pm

I just noticed you live in Useless. My brother lives there!

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:20 pm

Bluduh wrote:But *in my opinion* , why take the chance of having to *replace* the battery after inadvertently cooking it. Just disconnect it within a reasonable time after reaching full charge.

I don't do this because it would defeat the purpose of the BTJr, which is to keep the battery charged for the winter, without user intervention. And it does.

I don't doubt that a defective charger or a defective battery can cause a failure. But saying you shouldn't use it as directed – just in case – is like saying that a defective tire could blow at 30mph, so you shouldn't ride a scooter at that speed.

Bluduh · Post by **Bluduh** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:36 am

Yep, Euless is a great place to live. It's like a small town inside of a gigantic metroplex (DFW). Not as many scooters as I would like to see, though.

bluebuddygirl · Post by **bluebuddygirl** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:08 am

It is possible to pull the key out with the ignition not turned all the way off. My father-in-law did that after I let him test out the scooter. He is an avid motorcycle rider, but he pulled the key somewhat as he was turning it, and I had a heck of a time getting the key back in later when I went to start it. It hasn't happened since.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:46 am

Bluduh wrote:@Alley - The Battery Tender Junior is a fine product. I have one and I use it for my scooters, cars, lawn equipment, etc. One caution is that I would not leave the battery tender on for a very long time, like hours and hours or days. I think it has a light that goes green when the charge is full up. When you see that, go ahead and disconnect it.

@Everyone else. The reason I say this (*please*, no flames, bullets, grenades mortar/RPG rounds!) is that some have experienced (myself included) damage to SMALL batteries when left on the battery tender (Jr.!) too long. I know, I know some of you leave the battery tender on indefinitely. That's what it was designed for. But some small batteries, like scooters batteries, appear to have little tolerance for overcharging. Others may be robust enough to take the few milliamps of "maintenance" charge forever. But *in my opinion* , why take the chance of having to *replace* the battery after inadvertently cooking it. Just disconnect it within a reasonable time after reaching full charge.

There some truth and fiction there.

Batteries love to be fully charged all the time. My guess is that the failed battery was just probably bad in the first place. A fully charged battery left on a known good charger will be fine. Over charging a battery or pumping current into one that is already charged will destroy it.

A wet cell battery likes a 13.1V float voltage.
A VRLA battery likes a 13.6V float voltage.

Unless you know what the exact output voltage is during the float cycle you run the risk of overcharging. Always check the battery manufactures recommendations for charging. Compare that to what your charger is doing to confirm compatibility.

A fully charged battery doesn't need to be recharged for 6 months. That's if it's out of the vehicle which eliminates any parasitic current draw. A fully charged battery also won't freeze until -77*F.

If you're storing your scoot for a few months then make sure its fully charged and disconnected. You can even throw it on the cold cement floor and it will be fine when you get back.

Most batteries only last about 5 years. That fact is often overlooked.

Modern Buddy

Battery Question :)

Battery Question :)

Re: Battery Question :)