Dead-lights mod = dead battery

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:44 am

Anyone else having a problem with a dead battery?

I did the dead lights to running lights mod using that nice convenient wiring rig made by Lil Buddy. The rig works great and I installed it as per all the tutorials here at MB. Easy peasy.

I tapped into the orange horn "ignition" wire as seen here:

.

The lights come on once the ignition is turned on, but to avoid any battery drain I turn off the engine with the key - so lights are never on without the engine is running except for a second or two when starting the scooter.

Here's the problem. My battery isn't getting enough charge with the electrical pull of the two schmeesley extra bulbs. All lights work fine when the scooter is running but there will not be enough charge in the battery to start the scooter once I turn it off. Even when I go for an hour or more ride. In fact, the problem seems more pronounced after longer rides.

I tested the problem by disconnecting the mod and all electrical systems went back to normal. Reconnected the mod and the problem returned.

This sucks. I love having the extra visibility (I replaced the amber bulbs with Sylvania long-life incandescent whites). I have read other posts from people who have more extra lights than this and they apparently have no electrical problems.

What gives? Any suggestions? Is it the bulbs? Why me??

I'd love to have these lights working without killing my battery.

Thanks all...

Orange Guy · Post by **Orange Guy** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:48 pm

Off the cuff, I'd say that there is something else at play here. I have my deadlights converted to running flahsers (dual filament bulbs) and I never have this problem.

Hopefully someone with a little more knowledge can chime in with what the cause might be.

Shane Wilson · Post by **Shane Wilson** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:57 pm

I'd be curious to see how the battery tested under load at an auto parts store.

It could be as simple as your battery isn't up to snuff and isn't charging properly in the first place.

armacham · Post by **armacham** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:43 pm

you could always throw some leds in there

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:02 pm

Two questions that pop into my head.....
1) how many watts are the new bulbs you put in?
2) did you upgrade your headlight or is it stock?

I did a lot of research before I decided to do this mod myself. Buddy owners have been converting the deadlights for years now. I don't remember reading about any issues with a drain that severe. Sure hooking up extra lights will put some strain on your electrical system but to actually drain the battery enough that it won't start after a long ride, sounds to me like something else is at play here.

I would encourage you to try and figure out if something else is adding to the problem. Or, as mentioned above, try some LED bulbs. I tried some "super white" LED's and they were quite bright. But I liked the stock amber color better and just stuck with them.

If you decide that its just to much of a bother for you, I would be more then happy to buy the adapter back from you. I don't want you to feel that you are stuck with something you cant use.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:17 pm

I agree with others: Something else is going on. I have an '08 International as well and used the same deadlight mod from lil Buddy and have had absolutely no problems. Since your scooter is an '08, I would recommend taking it to your dealer to have the battery and/or charging system checked-out. They may say something about the extra load from the mod, but this forum should serve as an excellent example of others with the exact same mod and zero issues.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:26 pm

Thanks everyone. I agree, it seems there must be something else going on here. I mean, we're talking two little lightbulbs here. It's not like I have a microwave oven hooked up for goodness sakes.

Lil Buddy wrote:Two questions that pop into my head.....
1) how many watts are the new bulbs you put in?
2) did you upgrade your headlight or is it stock?

I have the Sylvania Long-life. A standard replacement bulb... at least that's what I think...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images ... automotive
My headlight is the same one that came with the scooter.

Lil Buddy wrote: ...try some LED bulbs. I tried some "super white" LED's and they were quite bright.

I thought of that but really prefer regular bulbs. And at this point I still refuse to say uncle to a problem I am determined to solve!

Lil Buddy wrote: If you decide that its just to much of a bother for you, I would be more then happy to buy the adapter back from you. I don't want you to feel that you are stuck with something you cant use.

Very nice of you. Thank you. But I refuse to give in! I want to figure this out.

Tocsik wrote:I agree with others: Something else is going on...
...this forum should serve as an excellent example of others with the exact same mod and zero issues.

Totally. This should be working without issue. We have the proof!

Well, for now I have disconnected the mod so I am up and running again (though I learned in the process that I am a total weenie when it comes to kick starting my scooter

I couldn't get it going for the life of me last night...)

Next step is to pay my friends at NoHo Scooters a visit and get them to test the battery and charging... fingers are crossed...

Here that Mike? I'm coming to see you. And if you get it all sorted out for me, I'll buy a front rack from you...

(How's that for motivation...

)

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:01 pm

I live right by NoHo and have a Battery Tender if you want to borrow it and see if that helps at all. But if your battery is draining that much while you're out riding, I don't know that having it fully charged at the start of the day will be enough.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:08 am

If I understand correctly, the problem disappears if you disconnect the modification. I'm assuming this means the main connection where you tapped into the "hot" wire on the horn.

Have you tried leaving that connection intact, but instead breaking what appear to be the two connections to the lights themselves? If you do that, and the problem still occurs, then it would tend to point to a short somewhere in the wiring harness itself.

Another thing would be to leave everything connected, start the scooter up (on the center stand) and then jiggle the hell out of the adapter harness. If your lights start flickering, then you've either got a loose connection somewhere, or an intermittent short.

rickko · Post by **rickko** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:02 am

If you have an OHM meter you can do some basic battery testing yourself.

After letting the scooter sit overnight, check the voltage of the battery at it's posts. It should be about 12v.

Without the mod (scooter on centerstand) hooked up, leave the ohm meter connected, start the bike. Watch the voltage. It should dip during start then hover in the 12.5 to 14v range no matter what the RPM (voltage regulator takes care of that). Rev it and see how much the voltage varies. Shouldn't vary much at all.

Now kill the engine, hook up the lights. Watch the OHM meter while starting the scooter. Note the difference in voltage. It should still be in the 12.5 to 14v range. If the voltage starts dropping you've likely got a battery problem.

Good luck!
..rickko..

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:32 am

Thank you for all the input folks.

charlie55 wrote:If I understand correctly, the problem disappears if you disconnect the modification. I'm assuming this means the main connection where you tapped into the "hot" wire on the horn.

All I've done so far to resolve the problem is disconnect the harness where is joins the lights. I leave the the wire tap in place. That resolves the problem. So does that therefore mean the harness is OK?

charlie55 wrote:Another thing would be to leave everything connected, start the scooter up (on the center stand) and then jiggle the hell out of the adapter harness. If your lights start flickering, then you've either got a loose connection somewhere, or an intermittent short.

I'll give that a try.

rickko wrote:If you have an OHM meter you can do some basic battery testing yourself...

I'll have to leave that to the boys at NoHo. No OHM Meter here. Hopefully they will know what to do.

I have noticed that my headlight does dim when the scooter is not revved. People here have said that is normal, but could that be a sign of a weak/ailing battery?

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:16 am

All I've done so far to resolve the problem is disconnect the harness where is joins the lights. I leave the the wire tap in place. That resolves the problem. So does that therefore mean the harness is OK?

Just to make sure I've got this correct.....

If you picture the wiring arrangement as an inverted "Y", then the base goes to the "hot" wire on the horn, and each of the two branches goes to one of the deadlights. If that's correct, and if disconnecting the branches from the lights solves the problem, then it WOULD appear that the harness is OK. That leaves me kinda stumped.

I guess another thing to try would be disconnecting only one of the deadlights at a time to try to isolate the fault.

Sorry I can't be of more help. It's frustrating trying to do this by "remote control", especially when I'm sure that I or many other members of the forum could probably ring this out in a few minutes if we could get at your scoot with a multimeter.

rickko · Post by **rickko** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:15 am

Just some thoughts....

Are the harness wires the same gauge as the orange wire? Could be some extra resistance there; especially if you are using higher wattage bulbs than the stock 10w bulbs.

What is the wattage of the new bulbs? Could they be 26w? If so you just added 32 watts to your system. Could be your voltage regulator can't handle it. And/or, could be a failing battery is part of the mix.

I suspect most people who've made this mod using the harness you bought did NOT change the bulbs. I did the mod a little different but kept the same bulbs. I don't see ANY effect with the DRLs on.

Let us know when you find the problem/fix.

..rickko..

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:27 am

charlie55 wrote:Just to make sure I've got this correct... disconnecting the branches from the lights solves the problem...

You're correct. That's exactly it. And I'm stumped too. It definitely seems (to my amateur electrician self) to be a matter of insufficient charge getting to the battery when the mod is connected. Because when I disconnect the mod, the battery again gets sufficient juice to charge and holds enough charge to start the scooter without issue.

One thought occurred to me, do you think it could be a bad ground wire connection? Either I've connected the harness ground wire to the wrong thing, or there is a problem with the harness' ground wire? Could that explain why it only happens when the mod is connected?

Here is a detail of my connection set up incase I messed up without realizing. (The harness is not connected to the deadlights in these pics.)

If that's not it then I guess by process of elimination the question becomes why is there so little charge getting to the battery that by simply adding two additional bulbs it is enough to deplete it.

charlie55 wrote:Sorry I can't be of more help. It's frustrating trying to do this by "remote control", especially when I'm sure that I or many other members of the forum could probably ring this out in a few minutes if we could get at your scoot with a multimeter.

You're awesome for even trying. Thank you so much.

mikecool · Post by **mikecool** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:17 pm

i jus turned my dead lights into working signals today and i had the same problem my scooter wouldnt start and the lights were not working so i checked the fuse next to the battery and it was burned so i changed it and everything worked again

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:18 pm

Thanks for posting that pic. I didn't catch it in the first photo. The true "ignition" wire is on the other side. See the clear rubber boot over on the left. It has the orange wire along with a red wire w/ white stripe, a blue wire w/ black stripe and a solid black wire. Try switching the tap over onto that orange wire. Be sure to put a small piece of electrical tape over the first wire where the tap was removed.

Im guessing the wire you taped has something to do with the charging system. With the lights hooked up to it, its overloaded and can't recharge the system.

rickko · Post by **rickko** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:09 pm

Lil Buddy wrote:Thanks for posting that pic. I didn't catch it in the first photo. The true "ignition" wire is on the other side. See the clear rubber boot over on the left. It has the orange wire along with a red wire w/ white stripe, a blue wire w/ black stripe and a solid black wire. Try switching the tap over onto that orange wire. Be sure to put a small piece of electrical tape over the first wire where the tap was removed.

Im guessing the wire you taped has something to do with the charging system. With the lights hooked up to it, its overloaded and can't recharge the system.

Bingo!

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Lil Buddy wrote:... Try switching the tap over onto that orange wire. Be sure to put a small piece of electrical tape over the first wire where the tap was removed...

Cool. I will make the change and ride for a while to see how it goes. Fingers are crossed.

Thanks!

kschulz · Post by **kschulz** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:23 pm

I think rickko has it right. I have my lights tapped into the same orange wire shown in your photo. I also replaced the amber 10w bulbs with the same Sylvania long-life bulbs you have, and had the same problem. After one long ride, the battery was dead.

The Sylvania bulbs are 27w each, and you're replacing 10w bulbs. I believe that is too large of an increase in the load on the generator. I replaced the bulbs with lower wattage bulbs I ordered from BulbTown.com and haven't had any problems since. Take a look at the #5007 bulbs (~5w) or, if those are too dim for your liking, try the #1003LL bulbs (~12w).

www.bulbtown.com

I also tried LED lamps, but didn't like the bluish white color of the light.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:52 pm

OK... here's the new wiring setup...

Is that what ya'll were referring to? The lights are working - they come on with the ignition - it's just a matter of going for a long ride now and seeing if my battery comes back alive.

If not, I may have to take kschulz's advise (thanks kSchulz) and lower the wattage of the bulbs... hope I don't have to though, LOVE the brightness...

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:45 am

Yep. Thats the correct set-up. If the Sylvania bulbs were the 27 watt versions, no matter what wire you tap they would drain the battery. Thats just to big of a jump from the stock bulbs.

I would advise to keep the running light bulbs at the stock wattage (or lower).

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:33 am

LED's might give you more brightness for less wattage.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:37 am

Well, it's sounding like LED's are going to be the only way to get bright white running lights without killing the battery. Thanks for the help everyone...

This leads to the next question...

Anyone have opinions about the best/brightest LED's? Reports I've read here have said that some brands broke, and some weren't so bright. Some people commented that an LED with more side lights would be better because it would reflect off the chrome more...

Thoughts? Feelings? Beuller?

Anyone familiar with these ones?
http://www.ledlight.com/s25-20-super-fl ... light.aspx

Would they fit where the dead lights are?

[Side Note: it might be a good idea to update the "Deadlights to Running Lights" tech tutorial so others don't make the same wiring mistake I did... how do we do this?]

kschulz · Post by **kschulz** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:13 am

I got my LED lights from V-LED:

www.v-leds.com
2 HID WHITE 24 LED PARKING LIGHT BULBS 1156 2056 1141

These only draw 120mA so no worries about loading down the electrical system. They were definitely bright, but the light was a bluish white color. I didn't like the way they contrasted with the warmer incandescent light from the headlamp.

Another thing to keep in mind - LED lamps are more susceptible to damage from electrical spikes and surges which may be problem since you're tapping into the ignition line. You might want to consider adding surge protection. I mounted a rocker switch next to the key ignition on mine to control these lights. I keep them turned off until after the scooter is running to avoid spikes while starting.

Ultimately I settled on going with the low watt bulbs instead. They're not quite as bright as the LED lamps, but I think they actually look better. Very subjective - you'll have to decide which works best for you.

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:20 am

I think those are to long. I will try and get some measurments tomorrow to see what will fit.

I think the issue you experienced had more to do with the wattage of the new lights more then the power source.

Where you able to go for a ride with the running lights hooked up to the new wire?

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:23 am

You can also opt for amber LEDs if you the bluish white ones don't work for you.

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:04 am

I think the bluish white would look sweet on the St. Tropez

kschulz · Post by **kschulz** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:03 pm

You can also opt for amber LEDs if you the bluish white ones don't work for you.

It looks like V-LEDS has a "warm light" LED that supposedly looks more like incandescent light, but it's not in an 1156-type form factor that will work here.

http://www.v-leds.com/Shop/Control/Prod ... SFV/32481#

I don't want to use amber for running lights, but thought something like this might work out. Anybody know of a "warm light" LED that will replace the stock bulbs?

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:01 pm

Skootz Kabootz wrote:
Anyone familiar with these ones?
http://www.ledlight.com/s25-20-super-fl ... light.aspx

Would they fit where the dead lights are?

Nope. Won't fit. Based on my very scientific experiment (rolling a cardboad sleeve over the stock bulb, putting the lense cover back on, seeing where the sleeve stopped) the longest light you can fit in there is 2". That is at 1" diameter and TOUCHING the lense cover.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:10 pm

Lil Buddy wrote:Nope. Won't fit...

Bummer. Thank you for checking. Quite clever. You are a fine scientist

At the moment I'm thinkin' why not first try putting the stock amber bulbs back in and see if that is enough electrical relief to solve the charging issue. If that works, I can later replace them with similar wattage white bulbs if that's what I want.

Or, I can take a little more time to research the whole "what is the best LED bulb" thing before purchasing. There seems to be quite a variety of bulbs out there and right now I know squat about the aesthetics of how they glow - blue, not blue, whatever. Maybe ultimately I'll get the blueish LED's for the deadlight's then get a new headlight bulb that looks similarly blueish. I agree that could look pretty cool on the St. Tropez. And after all, we want everything to match don't we? (Oh the money I could spend...).

As a safety benefit, it seems the bluer light might actually help you stand out from other cars on the road and better be seen. (Agree? Disagree?)

I had one thought/question... are there any other not so noticeable bulbs on the Buddy, like the license plate or speedometer for example, that are incandescent and could be replaced with LED bulbs thereby lowering the total electrical pull? That way a higher wattage incandescent bulb could be used somewhere where you really need it - like the freakin' deadlights for example...

rickko · Post by **rickko** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:31 pm

Another thing to look out for when ordering LED bulbs is their form factor. Notice in the picture below the LED has a 'shoulder' that the stock bulb doesn't have. Do not buy one with that shoulder. It won't allow you to push it into the socket far enough.

The stock bulb is a rear blinker light.

..rickko..

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:57 pm

rickko wrote:Another thing to look out for when ordering LED bulbs is their form factor. Notice in the picture below the LED has a 'shoulder' that the stock bulb doesn't have. Do not buy one with that shoulder. It won't allow you to push it into the socket far enough.

The stock bulb is a rear blinker light.

..rickko..

Thanks for the heads up rikko.

I put the stock ambers back in yesterday (using amber rather than white bulbs is temporary) and so far so good with the battery. It was a short ride though. I'm going to go for a long ride today to see how the battery fares with that (nice excuse to go for a ride). If the battery is dead wen I get back, then I know I have no choice but to use LED's.

Whichever way I go, LED or lower watt incandescent, it is a huge relief to have figured out what was at the root of the problem. Who knew my Buddy was so sensitive electrically? I have so much to learn...

My sincerest thanks to everyone for your collective experience and all your help. When I figure my final bulb choice, I will post it here incase it can help someone else.

Cheers.

Skootz

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:25 am

So far so good.

Went for a two hour ride today and scooter seemed fine when I got back. I'll keep things as they are for a while to be certain all is well, after that, I'll start having fun experimenting with different bulbs.

Thanks again everyone.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:58 pm

For the benefit of anyone who wants to do the deadlights to running lights mod, here are my latest findings for "what is the maximum wattage bulb I can use for my new running lights without killing the battery"...

2 - 12 Watt bulbs = dead battery

2 - 10 Watt bulbs = happy battery

On my St. Tropez, 2 - 10Watt bulbs seems to be the limit for how much constant additional electrical draw (ie running lights as opposed to turn signals) the skoot can handle. I don't know if that varies from scooter to scooter.

Hope that is helpful.

kschulz · Post by **kschulz** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:07 pm

I'm surprised you had problems with the 12W bulb. Seems a lot of peeps have upgraded the headlight from the stock 35W bulb to a 55W or 65W - that's a jump of 20 to 30 watts. Anybody having battery drain problems with that mod? Or maybe you also have made that mod to your headlight? If so, sounds like an additional 35W over stock may be about the limit for the electrical system.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:51 pm

The only electrical mod I've done is to hook up the deadlights as running lights. That's it. I haven't touched the headlight. I did buy my scooter used but it was just weeks old so I am pretty darn certain it is a standard stock bulb in there. Maybe I have a sensitive scooter? Charging-wize, it even makes a difference if I have the highbeam on or just the lowbeam....

Penguinboy · Post by **Penguinboy** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:51 pm

Last year I upgraded all the bulbs, headlamp bulb, and did the deadlight to running lights mod on both mine and my wife's 08 International 150s. Her scoot is fine- always starts on the first try. Mine hardly ever starts, even on a tender all the time. I just got used to kick starting. It usually kickstarts on the first try.

So last year when I took the scoots in for 600 mile service I had them check out my charging system and battery. got, "all system within spec" and paid an hour of labor for that, as it wasn't deemed a problem, so no warranty kick in. I was told the new bulbs drew too much current. When I asked how we could have 2 identical scoots, one with a problem and one without, I was again told all systems within spec. I like the brighter light, so I got used to kickstarting.....

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:08 pm

Check the wattage of your replacement bulbs. I've learned the Buddy is a sensitive creature electrically.

After all of the back and forth mentioned in this thread, I just replaced my 10W deadlights with LED's. Seems the two 10W bulb were right on the line of what the stator could handle. Day to day short rides would drain the battery. Long 1 hour + rides and the battery would recharge. Probably using 7 or 8W incandescents would work fine but I prefer the brighter LED alternative.

I am now researching headlight upgrade options so I can have that same cool blue/white color to my headlight. I will most likely be going with the PIAA HS1 Super Plasma GTX as that is a 35W replacement and will not add any extra electrical load. Too bad it is expensive ($40 +/- for one bulb).

My other consideration is the less expensive SilverStar 9003 (or H4). I have read here that a number of other Buddy owners have used it. But the SilverStar is a 55W/65W bulb which concerns me. I don't want to have a new battery problem. Also I hear the heat that SilverStars give off is borderline too hot for the lamp housing. But I am not sure. I welcome feedback from SiverStar users.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:37 pm

use L.E.D.s

bikebuda · Post by **bikebuda** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:21 pm

here are some LED driving lights i made that fit into the stock (deadlights) they are almost equal to the stock headlight but only draw

3w each @ 12v super night vision and no stator problems

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:25 pm

bikebuda wrote:here are some LED driving lights i made that fit into the stock (deadlights) they are almost equal to the stock headlight but only draw

3w each @ 12v super night vision and no stator problems

nice!

KRUSTYburger · Post by **KRUSTYburger** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:35 pm

bikebuda, where'd you get those?

bikebuda · Post by **bikebuda** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:58 pm

I made them out of standard LED bulbs but replaced all the individual LED's with narrow beam 7 degree viewing angle 130000 mcd led bulbs (making a nice pencil beam)

yes i have way to much time on my hands

KRUSTYburger · Post by **KRUSTYburger** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:26 pm

Aw man, got my hopes up and everything...

broke · Post by **broke** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:24 pm

Dude!

1) ORANGE Buddy
2) Full custom running lights made from INDIVIDUAL LEDs
3) SCUBA tank
4) R/C AIRPLANES
5) model boat?
6) Messy garage

I wish I was you

broke · Post by **broke** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:27 pm

I almost forgot:

7) Fridge
8 ) Barbershop chair
9) Enough fuel to survive the Zombie attacks
10) Is that a rock polisher?

KRUSTYburger · Post by **KRUSTYburger** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:30 pm

HA! I was just about to say you forgot the cool old barber's chair.

bikebuda · Post by **bikebuda** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:26 am

this is what you are not seeing in the left side pick

yes my garage is magic land

KRUSTYburger · Post by **KRUSTYburger** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:31 am

HOLY CRAP A HOVERCRAFT?!

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:33 am

So thats what the blower in the background is for. Cool set-up.