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Why hard to start?

 
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paulmars
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Joined: 01 Aug 2019
Posts: 14


PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Why hard to start? Reply with quote

bought it 30 days ago with 4k miles on it. Every time it rains its hard to start. Once it starts it runs fine and starts easy every time after until next rain. Then hard to start again. Someone said rain leaking into gas cap.

Three days ago after rain it was taking forever to start. So, this time we siphoned out all the gas (tank not line/carb) and put in one gallon of fresh gas from the pump. We also cut a piece of rubber to cover the gas cap to protect from rain. It took a lot of cranking, but she finally started. Since then its hard to start every time (hot or cold). then once started she runs fine. However, now each time it's very hard to start even though it has not rained in three days.

the rubber over the cap is not air tight.

It cranks fine and sometimes we even use the kick starter, still need to do it over and over before she starts....every time.

ideas?

tks,
pa
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Stanza
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Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 464
Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi, Honda C70

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could also be the airbox seal. Air box fills with water, carb sucks H20 instead of air, etc
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JettaKnight
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Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 549
Location: Fort Wayne
Series Italia 161

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would water even get under the seat, then high enough to get into the tank?

I'm thinking you've got some bad electrical connections. Maybe around the coil.
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buzzvert
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019
Posts: 76
Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The auto bystarter (auto choke) on the carb can cause an intermittent no-start condition if defective. This can sometimes be triggered by water/humidity. You can test this by removing the auto bystarter and covering the hole with your finger, sealing off air. If it fires off immediately, replace the bystarter.
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buzzvert
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019
Posts: 76
Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also- wet conditions can indicate a stator/sensor issue. the Stator assembly is very susceptible to the elements given its position and airflow/fan. A very crude way of testing if your stator is telling the CDI to spark is to remove the spark plug lead, insert a wood screw or other metal implement into the lead, DO NOT TOUCH THE METAL YOU'VE CHOSEN WHILE CRANKING, and crank while holding the metal lead a few mm from ground on the frame. If you don't see sparks from the metal to the frame, your stator/sensor is not telling your CDI to fire.

While I've seen both CDI and coils fail, the stator assembly is in my opinion a more likely culprit.

I'm pulling/replacing my stator today, in fact, with an NCY assembly, due to a similar intermittent no-start no-spark condition.

EDIT: a "safer" way to see if your stator, CDI and coil system is working correctly is to insert a spare spark plug into the unplugged lead and see if it has spark. I wrote the above not having a spare plug around (I know, I know, who doesn't keep spare plugs in a bowl on their desk, right?), but if I had one, that's what I'd do.
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Stanza
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Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 464
Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi, Honda C70

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JettaKnight wrote:
How would water even get under the seat, then high enough to get into the tank?

I'm thinking you've got some bad electrical connections. Maybe around the coil.


In my mind, I pictured a buddy 125, which has the airbox sitting on the left hand side of the bike. A good sideways rainstorm can get that wet. Add to that a bad rubber/foam seal where the two halves of the airbox meet, and then you have water getting sucked in along with the air, from what's puddled in the bottom of the airbox.
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paulmars
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Joined: 01 Aug 2019
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

engine runs fine. been driven move then 50 miles since my opening post above. Just very hard to start, hot or cold.

enricher solenoid plunger not moving when 12 volts applied, but it does get hot.
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buzzvert
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Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

when you have the solenoid out, does the engine fire off when you put your finger over the plunger hole, sealing off airflow?
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paulmars
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

try again...

different sites list different size carbs from 18mm to 30mm for my engine. which is it?
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buzzvert
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019
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Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paulmars wrote:
try again...

different sites list different size carbs from 18mm to 30mm for my engine. which is it?


Stock carb is 24mm. Highly recommended that stock carb is replaced with OEM, but your mileage my vary (literally).

Have you ruled out the stator?
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paulmars
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Stock carb is 24mm." How do u know? I have several pdf manuals for this scooter and engine and the only thing I can find says the manifold opening is 17mm. Nothing about the carb size.
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scootERIK
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Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 369
Location: Lake Geneva, WI
Buddy 125

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of scooter do you have? Unless I missed it you never mentioned which model. Also, we need to know how many CCs.
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paulmars
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Joined: 01 Aug 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buzzvert wrote:
The auto bystarter (auto choke) on the carb can cause an intermittent no-start condition if defective. This can sometimes be triggered by water/humidity. You can test this by removing the auto bystarter and covering the hole with your finger, sealing off air. If it fires off immediately, replace the bystarter.


Removed it. Applied 12vdc. It slowly got hot. Plunger did not move.

Can replace for 12$, but non I see have any user ratings. I also see several carbs for 18-25$ that includes the electric solenoid choke. These also have 4-5 star user ratings. I'd rather replace the carb.
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paulmars
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolf 49-50ccGY6 QMB139
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JettaKnight
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Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 549
Location: Fort Wayne
Series Italia 161

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buzzvert wrote:

EDIT: a "safer" way to see if your stator, CDI and coil system is working correctly is to insert a spare spark plug into the unplugged lead and see if it has spark. I wrote the above not having a spare plug around (I know, I know, who doesn't keep spare plugs in a bowl on their desk, right?), but if I had one, that's what I'd do.

And the safest way is to use a timing light.
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paulmars
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Placed finger over hole in carb where plunger solenoid belongs and she started.
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buzzvert
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019
Posts: 76
Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paulmars wrote:
Placed finger over hole in carb where plunger solenoid belongs and she started.


Sorry, gave you the measurements of the Buddy 125. If you're looking to fiddle with 3rd party carbs, go with:

Carb Type: Keihin PB with Auto choke
Venturi: 16mm
Airbox side: OD 35mm
Engine side (2-bolt flange mount) center-to-center of bolt holes: 43mm ... note that this is a flange mount on the engine side and not a boot manifold mount.

Does sound like the bystarter/choke though. I'd endeavor to find one to replace it vs. chucking the carb altogether.
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paulmars
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that means removing and cleaning the carb. cant find a carb rebuild kit. also a swap out sure saves time.

why does everyone including you all list different size carbs?
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paulmars
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also all the chokes I find online none have any user ratings. I dont want to buy junk. choke 12$, 4.5 star carbs 22$
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charlie55
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 1922
Location: New Jersey
'06 Blur (Sold) '05 Honda Helix (Sold) '76 CB125S (Sold) '06 Honda Helix

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do not need to clean, rebuild, or replace the carb. Your choke is stuck in the extended position and that prevents the engine from getting the richer mixture it needs until it warms up.

Look here for your Wolf model:

https://www.scooterdynasty.com/stockoempartsforscooters-36.aspx

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buzzvert
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019
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Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paulmars wrote:
that means removing and cleaning the carb. cant find a carb rebuild kit. also a swap out sure saves time.

why does everyone including you all list different size carbs?


We didn't know which Buddy (50/125/150/170i) you had until it was clarified... but whatever you buy, it should match up to this:

https://www.campusskooters.com/genuine-buddy-50-stock-carburetor-w-adjustable-mix

I'd be most worried about the engine side as that's a flange, and all the generic carbs I've seen accommodate a boot/clamp style.
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buzzvert
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019
Posts: 76
Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing more research than I should on this. The Buddy 50 stock carb lines up "mostly" to a Keihin PZ16, but that's outfitted with a manual choke. I've yet to find a visual match to the stock Buddy 50 carb in the off-the-shelf generic market.

Honestly this carb looks more like something you'd find on a lawnmower, but with an auto bystarter. But hey if it works...
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scootERIK
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Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 369
Location: Lake Geneva, WI
Buddy 125

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buzzvert wrote:
We didn't know which Buddy (50/125/150/170i) you had until it was clarified...


He doesn't have a Buddy, he has a Wolf 49-50ccGY6 QMB139.
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buzzvert
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Joined: 28 Jul 2019
Posts: 76
Location: Longmont, CO
Buddy 125 (2), lots of other bikes no longer in the garage

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="scootERIK"]
buzzvert wrote:
We didn't know which Buddy (50/125/150/170i) you had until it was clarified...

He doesn't have a Buddy, he has a Wolf 49-50ccGY6 QMB139.


Oh. Missed that. Forum title and all.

If it's a GY6 scoot, you literally have to pull the carb, check the form factor and any identifiable markings, and then match as best as you can. I've seen a lot of random variations within the same model.

EDIT: Last GY6 I brought back from the dead (Eagle 150 or something), I used this carb:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PQ63FMI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It worked fine.
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paulmars
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Joined: 01 Aug 2019
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

new thread http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=373955#373955
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iwannascoot
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Joined: 09 Apr 2016
Posts: 91
Location: Dawsonville Ga
Buddy 170i

PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also get tons of info on 49ccscoot.com for your scoot
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