folks, it looks like we got ourselves a problem.

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Leeroy Jenkins
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folks, it looks like we got ourselves a problem.

Post by Leeroy Jenkins »

take a look at this news video.

Man Crashes Scooter Into Van, Critically Injured
http://www.newschannel5.com/global/story.asp?s=8876770

IMHO:
The cop makes it sound like it was the scoot rider's fault that a van pulled in front of him and he was injured.

The burden of safety is on the motorcycle rider? When did size become the determining factor in responsibility for safety? If I run over a Mini Cooper with my sport utility vehicle, is it the Mini Cooper owner’s fault for being small? Should it have been painted yellow with flashing lights to make it more “observable”?

Here is the email address for the Chief of Police. chief@police.nashville.org

I'm writing him a nice email about how the comments of his officer are absurd and unfounded.

His comments really bothered me and I could not let it go without saying something.
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Post by skullmechanic »

The cop gavE pretty bad interview. He starts off with, "I guess..." -- any time this happens, you know the guy is shooting from the hip and is likely to regret what he just said. Let's make him regret it!
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Post by twoscoots »

Apparently the scooterist is some sort of celebrity:

http://www.willhoge.com/

But yeah, that police officer is a dud.
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Post by docutech »

This driver was cited for failure to yield to oncoming traffic. The crash involved an off duty police officer riding a sports bike. He is in critical condition. I wonder if he was on a scooter he would be the one at faul... :?:

I hope he pulls through...

Story here.
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Post by jmazza »

Holy crap- I didn't watch the video but that was Will Hoge?
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Post by Cheshire »

:evil: :evil: :evil:

This is the kind of crap that makes my life hell. Not only do I have issue with the "burden of responsibility" schtick, but what's with the intro?
"Last night...there was a SCOOTER crash!!"

Every vehiclular collision I hear of that involves a scooter is billed a SCOOTER wreck. People tend to read this as the scooter at fault, and it reinforces the idea that scooters=suicidemobiles. Really starting to get on my nerves! Especially when they turn around and say something like, "A motorcyclist was injured in a collision on...."

:evil:
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Post by jmazza »

Cheshire wrote::evil: :evil: :evil:

This is the kind of crap that makes my life hell. Not only do I have issue with the "burden of responsibility" schtick, but what's with the intro?
"Last night...there was a SCOOTER crash!!"

Every vehiclular collision I hear of that involves a scooter is billed a SCOOTER wreck. People tend to read this as the scooter at fault, and it reinforces the idea that scooters=suicidemobiles. Really starting to get on my nerves! Especially when they turn around and say something like, "A motorcyclist was injured in a collision on...."

:evil:
I hear you but I don't know that that is anything more than a descriptor. Most crashes are two cars. If there's a dumptruck that gets in a crash, it's a dumptruck crash regardless of fault.

But yes, it certainly doesn't help our cause (or your specific one in this case!!!).
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Post by sbebenelli »

Let us know if you get a response from your email
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Post by MikieTaps »

"The driver of the van wasn't hurt, and he said he never even saw the scooter"

Who thinks this is true, and who thinks that "Ooopsy I didnt see the scooter or motorcycle, its not my fault..." has just been engrained into the cagers head as an easy way out?
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Post by Jessica »

The officer places the blame with the scooter because it's smaller. Yeah, ok. Going by that logic, I can run down a pedestrain and claim "I never saw them walking along the road!" They were smaller and it's all their fault. Whatever.
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Post by jmsmith802 »

Wow, can't believe the officer said that. Let us know if you get a reply, I'm interested in what he will have to say..
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Post by louie »

it's an epidemic. 2 weeks ago a friend's scooter was totaled by i didn't even see you. the officer didn't blame on the driver of the car who turned left in front of him. same thing. he had to do some leg work afterward to have the report state it was the fault of the car.

karma made it right. Steve won a vespa s 4 days later.
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Post by Syd »

Leeroy, please let us know if you get a response to your email. I'll let you know if I get a response to mine.

I wonder if the van's insurance company will use the Channel 5 video in the court case?
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betsy q. bramble
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Post by betsy q. bramble »

That is incredibly frustrating. I emailed. I think everyone on here should, rather than saying "Let us know if you get a response" Come on! I just conveniently left out that I am not from Nashville.
kazoo

Post by kazoo »

I could write for an hour about my feelings on this subject, but I don't have to, I know I will have your support.

Yes, it does suck that the officer chose that repsonse. But lets face it folks, I don't have to explain to you what our TV broadcast system is like. We all know its about SPEED, get the crap out there, hustle, hustle. I'm sure that gets forced on to the police who just want to get the mess sorted out and cleared up so they can move on. In his defense he probably doesn't even know what he just said. Or possibly he mixed up what he said with what gets thrown around the cycle community. "Ride like you are invisible."

I hope that rider gets another chance to do whatever he pleases.

:(
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Post by louie »

getting a message out to none bike riders that it takes a different training of the brain is what will make us more safe and insurance companies more wealthy. where's the rocket science here. the brain sees what it knows.
teach drivers to see bikes. it could start with 1 question on drivers' license test. evidently many cops need retraining too.
i was surprised to hear cops here in birmingham and up in nashville are so clueless because we have had such a large bike culture that goes way back.
get on board!
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Post by Jrman »

That was an unfortunate crash and I have no idea what the person was wearing when the crash happened. However, one thing I have noticed is that many people on small dark scooters wear dark clothing. Add night time to this and it makes you very hard to see. Scoorterists can do more to "Be Seen" if they choose to. I personally look like a large neon blob going down the road with my yellow helmet with added reflective tape, yellow safety vest (Same one the officer has on in the video that is so bright) and neon yellow reflective safety gloves. The "Not Seen" problem will only get worse with more small scooters on the road. To a large extent people can be seen if they choose to.
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Post by siobhan »

Jrman wrote:That was an unfortunate crash and I have no idea what the person was wearing when the crash happened. However, one thing I have noticed is that many people on small dark scooters wear dark clothing. Add night time to this and it makes you very hard to see. Scoorterists can do more to "Be Seen" if they choose to. I personally look like a large neon blob going down the road with my yellow helmet with added reflective tape, yellow safety vest (Same one the officer has on in the video that is so bright) and neon yellow reflective safety gloves. The "Not Seen" problem will only get worse with more small scooters on the road. To a large extent people can be seen if they choose to.
I wear a pink helmet and a pink jacket (unless it's really cold and I'll wear leather with an orange/reflective overjacket at night). Last weekend I was riding in a place I usually don't ride and an acquaintance caught up with me at the location I was riding to. He's a m/c rider and a real manly-man and said matter-of-factly, "Everyone should wear pink! I saw you a mile away, literally." I've also had other people who know me tell me, "I saw you 5 lights ahead", etc.

Even when I get teased for the screaming pink, I reply "I'd rather look like a dork than be a dead hipstah." I lust after the Aerostich Hi-Viz one-piece.
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Post by Jrman »

siobhan wrote:Even when I get teased for the screaming pink, I reply "I'd rather look like a dork than be a dead hipstah." I lust after the Aerostich Hi-Viz one-piece.
I feel the same way about my neon Yellow. When I park my scooter at work and have my vest on people always tell me "man that is bright".. I always laugh and say Good! that is the idea. :)

I have been riding for about a month now. I have 1300 miles on my scooter and have never had a close call of someone pulling out if front of me. If anything, people way ahead of me wait longer for me to pass. I really think the neon yellow works and maybe they just want a good laugh as I ride by but if it keeps them from turning in front of me I am all for it. :D

I am going out to buy the "Bright Neon - Bushwhacker Mesh Tech Dual Sport Jacket" from Olymipa Moto Sports on Friday. I plan to be warm for the mild winters in Florida and be VERY SEEN!

http://www.olympiamotosports.com/bushwa ... hacker.htm
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Post by MarkTur »

Safety is 100% YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

You are invisible.

You have to scan ahead, and be aware of the dangers. Watch the FRONT TIRE - not the bumpers of cars waiting to enter an intersection. The tire moves twice as fast as the vehicle, and you'll see it move before the car.

Right or wrong, right of way or not, Scooter/MC -vs- Car/Truck. The Car/Truck WINS.

You are invisible.

Safety is 100% YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
Cya!
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Post by sunshinen »

I think even more blame goes to the news agency. They clearly cut off the beginning and end of the cop's statement. And they clearly chose where to place the blame.

"Man Crashes Scooter Into Van, Critically Injured"

The title itself is a nice case of spin. It makes it sound as if the van was innocently parked and the scooter strangely ran into it.

I think this is horrific journalism. Here was a tragic accident that could have been used to promote safety and caution, to warn against being lazy or distracted when driving, to caution people to actively look for 2-wheel vehicles. Instead, they chose to blame the victim and absolve the guilty.


Their Address:
474 James Robertson Parkway
Nashville, TN 37219

Their Managers
* News: Sandy Boonstra, News Director--
sboonstra@newschannel5.com
* NewsChannel 5+: Brian Bates, Executive Director--
bbates@newschannel5.com
* NewsChannel5.com: Jared Turner, Online Manager Editor--
jturner@newschannel5.com
* Debbie Turner, General Manager--
dturner@newschannel5.com
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Post by sunshinen »

MarkTur wrote:Safety is 100% YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

You are invisible.
Frankly, this just isn't true.

Yes, you to have acknowledge that this mode of transportation is more dangerous than others and take responsibility for being as safe as you can.

Yes, you need to realize many people will not see you. But constantly giving up our right of way (pretending we actually are invisible) would create a more dangerous situation as you disrupt traffic flow and people don't know what to expect from you.

You aren't on the road by yourself. You have an obligation not to endanger others. And they have an obligation not to endanger you. You cannot prevent every accident. You cannot anticipate every move of every driver at every second and magically avoid every idiot who isn't looking where he is going. You can do what you can to be more visible. You can watch other vehicles for signs of what they are going to do. You can be 100% aware. And some guy in a van can still cut you off before you can react.

We need to publicly assert that we have the same rights to the road as everyone else and that people will be held accountable for not watching where they are going. It is not our fault when people violate our right of way. Letting people think otherwise endangers not only us, but everyone on the road.

And while I get that people don't see us, and accidents happen, we need to push for any publicity that reminds people that they can take lives by not paying attention.

"I didn't even see him." — Well why not? Were you playing with your radio? Were you talking on the phone? Were you eating a burger? Were you even looking where you were going? Or were you looking at that neon sign over there? Simple things take lives. Every accident needs to be a push to remind people of that, not to make them feel better about it, not to blame the victim and absolve the guilty.
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Post by SCTSCT »

Yes, it was Will Hoge.

I hope he gets well soon. My girlfriend's son actually got a guitar pick from him at a local concert a year or so ago.

:(


per Will's site:

Friday, August 22, 2008 • 1:08 PM

Will’s condition has been upgraded to stable after a Wednesday evening traffic accident. He suffered broken bones and contusions when his scooter was struck by another vehicle at approximately 8 p.m., Central Time Wednesday, August 20. Will was departing the Nashville studio where he is working on the follow up to 2007’s Draw the Curtains for his record label, Rykodisc.

“Mr. Hoge suffered multiple injuries during the accident, however, he is progressing according to plans,” said Dr. John A. Morris Jr., director of the Division of Trauma at Vanderbilt Medical Center.

Will’s family, management team and record label appreciate the outpouring of well-wishes from friends and fans. Will is anxious to get back in the studio and on tour, and will do so as soon as his doctors allow.
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Post by Tysonviolin »

Sunshinen- Marktur meant practically invisible. Don't disagree to disagree. I think it is a good point. I do everything I can to be seen, but assume that I am not seen.
Scooting is ZEN....
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Post by MarkTur »

I just sent the link for this thread to the executive producer.

Subject: Is someone ever going to report a story responsibly ever again?

(If you don't say something, it's like giving them the green light to continue...)

This is actually TRIVIAL compared to the other shit I see and hear in the news. It's sad when I have to tell my 11 year old to not watch because you can't believe it in regards to the evening news.

I remember growing up listening to Walter Kronkite, and never questioning his integrity on the story...I guess I'm old...now it's all about ratings. Truth is unpleasant and boring...
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Post by jmazza »

MarkTur wrote: I remember growing up listening to Walter Kronkite, and never questioning his integrity on the story...I guess I'm old...now it's all about ratings. Truth is unpleasant and boring...
Blame Channel 7 in Miami. If it bleeds, it leads. They've been producing guys like Rick Sanchez, et al for years!!

I started to write but I'm not sure what to write. I think writing the Chief is a good idea alerting him to the fact that one of his Sergeants came across sounding like he was putting fault on the scooter rider. But I also agree it's definitely in the editing, so maybe writing the news dept is good too. Honestly, I'm not sure writing either will really help.

The most important thing I take from this story is what MarkTur (and others) said. It's a reminder that fault doesn't really matter when you're in the hospital. This sounds possibly like one of those near impossible to avoid wrecks. But whenever I read or hear of one, I am more vigilant in my own defensive riding. Yes we need to be proactive in helping the education process about seeing scooters and mc's but the bottom line is it's up to us each day to be safe. What's most frustrating about this wreck is we don't know that the rider was doing anything that made him unsafe.

Links to Will Hoge's site have been posted ( http://www.willhoge.com )- this guy is a great musician and I'm pretty sure he makes the majority of his living on the road. He's now off the road and out of the studio where he was working on his next record for an undetermined amount of time. I'm sure buying some of his stuff from his site wouldn't hurt him.

I'm going to see about emailing his management and letting them know of this thread to find out if there's anything we individually or as a group could do.
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Post by MarkTur »

sunshinen wrote:
MarkTur wrote:Safety is 100% YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

You are invisible.
Frankly, this just isn't true.


Yes, you need to realize many people will not see you. But constantly giving up our right of way (pretending we actually are invisible) would create a more dangerous situation as you disrupt traffic flow and people don't know what to expect from you.

You aren't on the road by yourself. You have an obligation not to endanger others. And they have an obligation not to endanger you. You cannot prevent every accident. You cannot anticipate every move of every driver at every second and magically avoid every idiot who isn't looking where he is going. You can do what you can to be more visible. You can watch other vehicles for signs of what they are going to do. You can be 100% aware. And some guy in a van can still cut you off before you can react.

We need to publicly assert that we have the same rights to the road as everyone else and that people will be held accountable for not watching where they are going. It is not our fault when people violate our right of way. Letting people think otherwise endangers not only us, but everyone on the road.

And while I get that people don't see us, and accidents happen, we need to push for any publicity that reminds people that they can take lives by not paying attention.

"I didn't even see him." — Well why not? Were you playing with your radio? Were you talking on the phone? Were you eating a burger? Were you even looking where you were going? Or were you looking at that neon sign over there? Simple things take lives. Every accident needs to be a push to remind people of that, not to make them feel better about it, not to blame the victim and absolve the guilty.
I hear ya. But here's the reality, that whole long speech you just gave about right and wrong will not get you out of the hospital or grave any quicker, no matter how "right" you are.

The bottom line is:
a. The officer in the video basically repeated verbatim what my Rider Coach from MSF class said this weekend. Car vs MC, Car wins. Every time. Right or wrong.

b. You - as the responsible rider - need to use "Rider Radar" - which is scanning 12, 4, and 2 second ahead, as well as watching in your rearviews what is going on behind you.

Now with that said, I never said you should be constantly giving up your right of way. What I mean is that your "right of way" means nothing to a 4000 pound vehicle HITTING YOU. Big difference.

Secondly, the rider should have seen the van waiting to turn. PERIOD. The rider needs to be aware of the scenarios that MAY play out, and drive defensively.

I have seen so many MC's and Scoots blow right through intersections without even looking left first. BTW: You are most likely to get hit from the LEFT side in the USA. We, unfortunately ARE invisible. Cagers unfortunately, do not pay attention.

I watched an elderly couple at dinner last night - neither of them were able to get out of their seats to their walkers without assistance from the restaurant folks...once they got up, they asked the bus-boy to carry their leftovers out to the car. After that, the old man, with hands shaking horribly (Parkinsons) got about 10 feet, his right knee gave up, and he started sagging to the floor until the busboy then picked him up. Then after about 30 minutes, they finally made it to their Cadillac, and the guy got in the drivers seat and drove away!!!!

They should be on the road, period. BUT THEY ARE. AND THEY WILL NOT SEE YOU. AND they will be very very very sorry when they kill you, because they didn't see you. And even if they did see you, do you think this guy can get his foot on the brakes in a reasonable amount of time? No f'ing way. YOU ARE DEAD.

So again I say, right or wrong, YOU have be responsible for your safety.

Read the book "Proficient Motorcycling" or any other publication about safety. If you don't think your scoot IS a motorcycle, and you're above learning about how to be safe, then I don't know what to tell you, except Good Luck...

(I'm sorry if I sound rude here, but this is a reality that sometimes needs to be delivered with some emotion. I don't mean any personal insults or attacks.)
Cya!
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Post by MarkTur »

PS. I still agree that this STORY could have been presented in the light of driver-awareness, and not like a dumb-ass scooter rode into a parked van.
Cya!
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Post by jmazza »

MarkTur wrote: Secondly, the rider should have seen the van waiting to turn. PERIOD. The rider needs to be aware of the scenarios that MAY play out, and drive defensively.
Mark we don't know anything about this- it's very easy to see the van waiting to turn, watch the wheels as we know we're supposed to, cover our brake or even slow down, and still have the van jet out in front of us leaving us nowhere to go.

We've all seen the moonwalking bear PSA that says "you don't see what you're not looking for" and we've all read the studies about how we can actually miss things right in front of our face resulting in the "I never saw him" defense.

It's tough to ride a scooter and this accident proves it.

Everyone here has some valid points and we're all on the same side!! :lol:
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Post by Dibber »

Just like in todays paper. Two motorcyclist were hit by one car driver and all they could say is that the bikers did have helmets on. It was like it was their fault because they didn't wear helmets. What about the inatentive driver that hit them. The car driver was almost noted as the victom. I know we should wear helmets, but in Minnesota it not a law and the news should be reported properly.
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Post by MarkTur »

Yep, we are on the same side.

I just get bothered when people start preaching "right of way"...

We all need to understand that we're at the bottom of the food chain here. It's like trying to tell an alligator to not eat you while you're swimming in it's pond. It doesn't hate you, it just sees you as "food". So WE have to be super-careful if we want to swim in that pond.

Same principle applies here, too. Cagers don't hate us...they just don't look for us.

I also agree that we don't know the whole story, and the van could have pulled out in front of the scoot with no chance for the scoot to avoid it. But we have to do the best we can.
Cya!
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Post by MarkTur »

Dibber wrote:Just like in todays paper. Two motorcyclist were hit by one car driver and all they could say is that the bikers did have helmets on. It was like it was their fault because they didn't wear helmets. What about the inatentive driver that hit them. The car driver was almost noted as the victom. I know we should wear helmets, but in Minnesota it not a law and the news should be reported properly.
This is the standard response, I guess, so people in cars don't have to feel guilty for killing innocent bikers... I won't say a word about wearing helmets, because we all know what they do and what they are for.

(Did I do good, Eric? :)
Cya!
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Post by Cheshire »

Sometimes you only have enough reaction time to pull a Batty. (Ferngully)
"Ohh...this is gonna hurt...!" :(
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Post by jmazza »

Dibber wrote:Just like in todays paper. Two motorcyclist were hit by one car driver and all they could say is that the bikers did have helmets on. It was like it was their fault because they didn't wear helmets. What about the inatentive driver that hit them. The car driver was almost noted as the victom. I know we should wear helmets, but in Minnesota it not a law and the news should be reported properly.
That's actually somewhat of a standard reporting thing- in most car crash reports, it's noted whether or not seat belts were worn as well. It's supposed to be a safety reminder, but I agree, it does come across as if it's the MC riders' faults.
kazoo

Post by kazoo »

This Reality topic bites; because its just that, reality.

Its the one you didn't see that gets you. Have fun with it, or quit riding.
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Post by sunshinen »

MarkTur wrote: I just get bothered when people start preaching "right of way"...
Sorry if I came across as harsh or "disagreeing to disagree." In the face of a rider who has been critically injured by someone who pulled out in front of him... well, I obviously found the attitude of blaming the rider (or saying the rider has 100% responsibility) and not the person actually in the wrong a bit ... well, unrealistic and insensitive.

In my mind (which is why I react so strongly) the attitude we're discussing in this post is the same irrational type of thinking that blames the victim of rape. She was wearing provocative clothing; it's her fault she was raped. She should have seen it coming. She should have fought him off. The rider wasn't wearing florescent orange; its his fault the van pulled out in front of him. He should have seen it coming. He should have been able to dodge. He should have been in a big protective SUV. It's his fault he was killed.

I don't see this as preaching right of way... I'm asking us to not blame the victim. I'm asking us to encourage people to drive responsibly, to not multitask in the car, to actively look for 2-wheelers, etc. In the wake of an accident, no one's arguing that it's not dangerous out there. Reminders to be safe, and tips on how to be safe are good. But preaching that you can control every situation through awareness and gear and visibility... well, IMHO, that's a bit naive, or at least an exaggeration that makes us riders feel (falsely) better about riding. And I think we need to ride without those kinds of pretenses.
MarkTur wrote:Yep, we are on the same side.
... But we have to do the best we can.
Exactly. I'm just asking that we ask the cagers to do the best they can, too. :D
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olhogrider
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Post by olhogrider »

The news is usually very accurate unless it is something I actually know about :evil:

Ride as if you are invisible! A cager's blind spot is anything outside their vehicle!
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newslinky
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Post by newslinky »

What a um non thinker(Trying to refrain from all the obvious names that cop deserves.) Email sent seriously they need to either have a standing policy where only PR trained officers address the press(If this guy was PR trained he needs a refresher) or they need to properly train officers never to make statements of blame to the media.
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Post by UXO »

olhogrider wrote:The news is usually very accurate unless it is something I actually know about :evil:
:)
olhogrider wrote: Ride as if you are invisible! A cager's blind spot is anything outside their vehicle!
:) Seems that way, doesn't it.

Its funny as of this past year I've seen people wearing these little fury ears attached to the top of helmets. I think these people should be commended for helping raise the awareness of two wheelers. I'm not saying they are more visible, I just think that you, me, and others, will remember them. Has its benefits, don't you think?
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Post by olhogrider »

That's why I got my daughter a pink helmet. Somehow people seem less aggressive toward a girl. I hope it gets their attention.
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louie
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Post by louie »

sunshinen wrote:
MarkTur wrote: I just get bothered when people start preaching "right of way"...
Sorry if I came across as harsh or "disagreeing to disagree."
...
I don't see this as preaching right of way...

... But preaching that you can control every situation through awareness and gear and visibility... well, IMHO, that's a bit naive, or at least an exaggeration that makes us riders feel (falsely) better about riding. And I think we need to ride without those kinds of pretenses.
MarkTur wrote:Yep, we are on the same side.
... But we have to do the best we can.
Exactly. I'm just asking that we ask the cagers to do the best they can, too. :D
right of way is one of the topics of this thread. that's why i too am writing about right of way.

it's a matter of teaching all drivers to see bikes with whon they share the road. it's not taught and should be. i know all the "we are invisable" realities and i ride using the knowledge. but why just leave it at that. it's as easy as giving cagers the knowledge we all have; you won't see a bike if you are only looking for cars. it would save more new riders than experienced riders sure but turning left in front of bikes is the leading cause on bike wrecks (involving 2 vehicles). the comments they all make is "i didn't see it" or "i thought it was further away". that's collected data not theory. knowledge is power, drivers don't want to hit us.

i'll always ride like i'm invisible with riding techniques that put me in the best position possible and use visible gear, white helmet and jacket and i chose an onange scooter the color of a caution cone.

As for the cops who fault bikes for being invisible which happened here less than a month ago it's unlawful and could cost the rider, at least the time to have it correctly addressed in the accident report. the biker should have the cop advocating for her not against her.

As a cager i wouldn't want to learn the "seeing" lesson by hitting a bike. would you? i rather be taught on a written test that i have to look and see bikes differently than cars. our fault is complaing here and not advocating to those who can make the change.
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Post by lobsterman »

MarkTur,
The bottom line is:
a. The officer in the video basically repeated verbatim what my Rider Coach from MSF class said this weekend. Car vs MC, Car wins. Every time. Right or wrong.
There's a difference between the cop and your instructor.

Your instructor was telling you that in real world scenarios people won't see you and you need to be careful as a rider, because impact with a car will ruin your day.

The cop, on the other hand is the authority figure who is supposed to uphold the law, and the law says it's about right of way, not size. The cop should have been protecting the scooter rider, not blaming him.
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Post by scootermama »

olhogrider wrote:That's why I got my daughter a pink helmet. Somehow people seem less aggressive toward a girl. I hope it gets their attention.
Hmmm. I wonder if that's true? Could explain the good riding experience with courteous (for the most part) cagers for me in PDX. I have daisy decals all over my helmet, which just scream "girl" rider.
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