"You'll void your warranty!" and other hysterics

[ericalm]

Truth be told, regardless of what Genuine may say about an aftermarket performance pipe (or other part) voiding the warranty, that's just not the case. For the most part, all manufacturers will make this claim. Some may actually believe it. Riders have also heard similar malarky from dealers (though mine knows better!). Fortunately, consumers are protected by the Magnuson-Moss Act of 1975.

In short, the act says that such parts only affect warranties if the problem with the product can be traced to or is related to that part. In the case of an exhaust pipe, then, if your electrical system went haywire it would still be covered as would your transmission, etc.

Thanks to Bryce for posting info about this on MV whenever the topic inevitably arises.

[Keys]

However. Be aware that if you burn a valve or burn a hole in the piston or perhaps melt a ring or something, that could possibly be traced back to a change in the intake or exhaust. Perhaps it would have contributed to the failure, perhaps not, but there are many "experts" who could be coerced into saying that indeed it did. Regardless of the Magnuson-Moss Act, beware and be very careful.

If you do, indeed, make a change, have a reputable shop to a spark-plug "chop test". This will describe to the mechanic EXACTLY what is taking place in your combustion chamber. If it is rich or lean and what needs to be done to fix it. If it needs to be fixed, fix it. Ask them to put the final results on paper. That would be YOUR expert witness should there be an issue. The best defense is a competent offense. A properly jetted carburetor will not burn up other components in the system.

--Keys

[ScooterDave]

I spent many years with Volkswagen and then BMW. I left BMW almost a year ago to work here at a Newspaper. I know more about the Magnuson-Moss Act than I ever wanted to.

Common sense will tell you that if your seat hinge is faulty & breaks, it is not because of the pipe. The dealer will not void aspects of the warranty that are not related to the pipe.

Likewise, if you have the pipe on the scooter and ANYTHING happens to the engine, be forewarned, the chances of Genuine covering it are slim to none. And rightfully so. You are changing the way the scooter engine was designed to perform.

Dave

[pocphil]

I have designed, built and patented exhaust systems - My opinions are based in experience and years of testing. I have also blown up more motors than I care to admit. I am diligence-impaired and willing to spend thousands to eek out infinitesimal gains that only I will appreciate. I will wax on about these gains to all who will listen. Enlightened men will click "delete" now and proceed to more noble chores like tweaking their fake MySpace identity.

It is very rare to see a product launched with a dyno sheet, not even Supertrapp provides sheets on their new pipes.

Why?

1) Sets up your competition: Most folks in the industry have done prototyping or copying to get their product to market, saying "our pipe gives you 12% more HP" and showing a dyno chart to prove it gives your competition the ability to show a chart showing 20% more HP and take your market from you.

2) Dyno's LIE...that's right, I said it. As long as there is a computer interface to the data I can make it say anything I want. I can also make very short term changes to your intake system that will nearly double your horsepower at the rear wheel...these changes will scatter your motor in a matter of seconds, but for a brief moment on the dyno (long enough to do a run and print a sheet) it looked like my product was the best thing since birth control.

3) Dyno's are independent creatures, they have minds of their own. A recent trip to a local dyno gave me a base number 10 HP higher than the last time I was there 3 months ago. Same bike, same dyno. Environment makes a difference. If I print an ad with a big 'ol dyno sheet that says my pipe will give you 21% more horsepower, you can bet your butt some disgruntled guy (who's dad's-cousins-neighbor has a snowmobile dyno) will put his bike on there and churn out less HP. Now I've got him posting a picture of his dyno sheet online calling me a liar and accusing me of trying to get rich off the real scooterists.

4) Most importantly - YOU DON'T HAVE MY DYNO and you certainly don't ride my nonexistent dyno to work every day. You do have a well calibrated ass, and it's what tells you how your bike is running. If I show you a Dyno chart all I'm doing is quietly saying "stare deeply into my eyes....you're getting sleepy....you will feel your scooter going faster...you know it's going faster....you gave me your money.....it's louder.....it must be faster....you can feel your manhood growing.....sleep.

When I snap my fingers you will awaken and be ready to hear the truth...

<SNAP>

How can Scooterworks / Genuine sell a product that violates their own warranty? Shame on them...those devils.

1) Ford / Honda / Chevy etc. all do the exact same thing. All major companies now have "tuning" divisions. Trying to capture some of the aftermarket tuning $$$ and build brand loyalty, these companies routinely produce or re-label components and sell them at their dealerships to folks whos only sins are wanting to go faster, be louder or look cooler.

2) A company like Genuine selling aftermarket parts helps establish a quality standard. Genuine can directly control the quality of parts they offer to their customers. Offering a high quality item like the Prima pipe makes it tougher on guys pumping junk into the market. If I'm going to launch an exhaust system it will have to be better than the Prima. Unless I'm from MRP and then I'll just try to dazzle you with bullshit and silicone filled Latinas holding crap made in China.

3) Being cavalier about a warranty is just echoing the feelings of the scooter owners who demanded the part in the first place. Finally a company that responds to the demands of its customers...and of course somebody has to be there to bust their balls for it.

Simple Rules:

Indian Manufacturers call warranties the "Device the allows the Consumer to steal from the manufacturer" I guess their logic is if it didn't break for the first 2 million riders, what did you do to screw it up, and why should we pay to fix it?

Dealers and Manufacturers WANT their customers to be happy, it's just good business...but, we can only go so far.

There are two schools of thought:

1 - K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple, Stupid - Stock Rocks - Leave it alone and enjoy the ride etc.

2 - I know I can make it faster...I'm Clever. My lawnmower sucks bunnies out of their holes.

Guy number 1 won't bitch about the warranty because he wouldn't buy the pipe anyway.

Guy number 2 won't bitch about the warranty because he knows warranties are for sissies.

Guy number 3 knows he's actually guy number 1, but wishes he was guy number 2. He'd like to build a bunny-chomping-mower, but he knows how badly he screwed up Billy's 10 speed on Christmas morning and is looking for someone to be there next time he screws up.

In a perfect world there would be no warranty claims, but, if I'm going to give you a warranty, you've got to meet me halfway. I'm committing to fix it (if it fails you) for a given amount of time. You've got to agree to not to put stress on it that wasn't part of the original design.

Those highly educated bastards in white lab coats and thick glasses are holy men in my lame-ass religion. They somehow anticipated that I would take a brand new, unbroken-in motor and thrash it at wide open throttle for over 650 miles.


Unlike the mouth-breathers who write and translate the manuals...

Maybe you shouldn't have poured all of that washing-up liquid in it.
-But it says here "Ensure machine is clean, and free from dust"!
Yeah, but it don't say, "Ensure the machine is full of washing-up liquid"!
-No, but it doesn't say, "Ensure the machine isn't full of washing-up liquid"!
Well, it wouldn't would it! I mean, it doesn't say, "Ensure you don't chop up your video machine with an axe, put all the bits in a plastic bag, and bung 'em down the lavatory"!
-Doesn't it? Well maybe that's what's going wrong!

Sorry, I still love The Young Ones.

If you've made it this far...you probably either agree with me to a degree, or your googling my name to find a picture of me naked to photoshop under a horse.

Your warranty is an agreement you signed with Genuine. If you didn't like it, you didn't have to buy the scooter. Be warned, I've pretty much sold them all...I've yet to find a warranty that says:

If you break it, burn it, or bend it while racing it on the weekend, giving your 300 lb. sister a ride, or accidentally slide it under an SUV we'll pay for the damages. If you forget to put oil in it or try to run it on diesel we'll fix it and cover the towing. If you tried to make it go faster by cutting the pipe down to an inch and a half, we'll give you a new motor and put a post on the Speed Forum saying how you were going 120 when it happened and you nearly died. If you regret the color or wish you'd gone bigger we'll cheerfully refund your money and reimburse you for mental anguish and loss of wages while you were in counseling. We do regret to inform you we can not compensate you for suffering caused by your purse dog asphyxiating while you had him stored in the helmet bay while having your nails did. Sadly, all of our storage-bay-rated pets are on loan to the folks over on the Modern-Vespa forum.

Now go back to dreaming about summer, but do me a huge favor....Get a big cup o' joe and shovel a path to your scooter. Now fire it up with the kickstarter and stroke that throttle for about 15 minutes. This way, when the sun comes out and heats up your rock, I'm not the first guy you call because your brand new scooter won't start...even though it's still under warranty.

[Keys]

What's wrong with silicone filled Latinas...???

--Keys

P.S. I totally agree with you Phil...but then, you've always proven yourself to be straight-up.

P.P.S. There were WAY too many bunnies anyway...

[AxeYrCat]

LMAO at Phil's post!!


I'm typically Guy #2, but I've kept the car that my fiance and I often share stock because I like its warranty, if for nothing other than piece of mind.


But my Audi has a turbo on it that could most definitely suck bunnies out of the ground were it aimed appropriately...


(But it's spent more time in the shop in the last two years than it has on the road. By a wide margin. The bunnies have nothing to worry about.)

[rajron]

I’m not sure what your saying – but this all started when you said you were going to get dyno runs on the new pipe.
“The sound is great, the performance seems better, but we won't have exact numbers for you until we get a chance to run it on the dyno.� see http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic862.html
Then everyone started talking about warranties.
Will you post the dyno runs? – if your not, that’s cool just let us know because some of us were under the impression you were going to do the runs. And as you and many others have pointed out the deltas in pwr will be minimal but it would be cool to see what you are able to come up with anyway.

[pocphil]

We will do a dyno run, but we will do it in the correct fashion, using a dyno for its intended purpose, as a diagnostic tool, not a sales tool.

The downside is these runs cost $50 each and you're gonna do at least 3 runs each time you go. We are waiting to either set up a new dyno agreement with someone locally or drop the $10,000 on buying a new machine. Usually, the winter means we have more time to spend on the dyno. This year we've been so busy we haven't had time to make the runs and our usual dyno has been super-busy so we can't get scheduled.

So all you "show me" guys who are waiting to see absolute numbers before you drop the small coin on what is already the best value exhaust system on the planet are gonna be waiting a little while longer if you're waiting on me.

Go back and read my post, you'll see that I'm not dismissing the effectiveness of dynos, I'm simply saying that using them as a sales tool can be misleading and perilous at best. I know...I've done it.

Unless you're building motors for a living, your speedo and your butt is the only dyno you'll ever really need.

[gt1000]

When I snap my fingers you will awaken and be ready to hear the truth...

<SNAP>

Whoa, where am I? No way, you're telling me I'm in CLEVELAND!

I suppose it's obvious from my previous posts on this subject but I'm one who's in agreement with Phil. He just said it better and with more conviction than I did. I can understand why people want to see dyno charts but, for me, the butt dyno and real world experience rule the day.

Rather than rehash what I've already stated in the performance pipe thread, let me instead say that I'm planning on resisting any urge to tweak my Buddy, at least for the foreseeable future. The main reason for this is that I really like the way my Buddy runs. That doesn't mean I won't reconsider, especially if I get the opportunity to ride a tweaked Buddy, say in the Spring. If I do and if the overall ride-a-bility seems improved, then I'll consider adding performance parts to the mix.

[rajron]

Ok I’m impressed 70 mph on a Buddy!!!!
Were you using the pipe?
I have never gone that fast, even down hill – I do live @ 5,100’ to 5300’.

[lou76]

Ok I’m impressed 70 mph on a Buddy!!!!
Were you using the pipe?
I have never gone that fast, even down hill – I do live @ 5,100’ to 5300’.

yeah, but it seems like it has sucked all the gas out of it.... :]

i was mighty impressed with myself when i buried the needle coming down yarnell hill(read: a big hill) until a friend with a bajaj pointed out that he could hit 80 on that hill just by pulling in the clutch....
touche...

[scooterjon]

70 to 80 on a buddy ?? Yeah right . Anyone hook up a GPS system to find out the TRUE mph.

Jon

[x-mojito50mod]

I have a hard time believing 80 too...
Fastest I can get it to go is down LaBrea in Baldwin Hills. For those not familiar wit LA, this is a fairly steep, 6-lane, non-freeway two mile stretch. My neighbor was behind me in his car, which records top speed on his trip-odometer. At one point I glanced down at the speedo when I thought I had it maxed out...it showed an indicated 78ish mph. My friend's car recorded 73mph as top speed...and he was tailing me closely. For me, it was fast enough.

[gt1000]

70 to 80 on a buddy ?? Yeah right . Anyone hook up a GPS system to find out the TRUE mph.

Jon

Seems to me a while back somebody did check the Buddy's speedometer accuracy with a GPS and posted the results. A search might reveal the thread. I seem to remember the indicated speed being about 5 mph faster than the real speed, which is very typical for any scoot or bike.

x-mojito50mod's experience would seem to support this variation.

I've had my 125 up to an indicated speed of just under 70 when I ran out of road. I don't think my Buddy had much more poop left in it, so I'm thinking I was pretty close to maxed out. This was on a fairly level road too. With a good tailwind and long downhill stretch, the stock Buddy might hit an indicated 75 or better.

[lou76]

My friend's car recorded 73mph as top speed.and he was tailing me closely. For me, it was fast enough.

yeah, on yarnell hill i glanced down at the speedo, saw the needle was just past the 80 mark... it didn't seem to be moving up anymore, even though i was halfway down the hill and still gaining momentum... i slowed it down for the rest of the hill... windy and more than a little wiggly...

[rajron]

Seems like the speedo is +5mph off between actual and indicated when going over 40 mph, a little less at lower speeds and a little greater off when going faster than 40mph. ( I used a GPS and others on this forum had similar results)

[pocphil]

The US D.O.T. allows a 10% speedometer discrepancy at 60 mph. I think you'll find eveyone but Harley takes full advantage of it.

Some are very, very optomistic (anything chinese) but I think you'll find the buddy is about 10% at top speed.

My GPS recorded top speed on a stock Buddy is 71 MPH.

[x-mojito50mod]

My GPS recorded top speed on a stock Buddy is 71 MPH.

That's about all mine will do on the flat...indicated, not actual.

[Bryce-O-Rama]

Unless you're building motors for a living, your speedo and your butt is the only dyno you'll ever really need.

A GPS or radar gun and a stop watch work pretty well too.

However. Be aware that if you burn a valve or burn a hole in the piston or perhaps melt a ring or something, that could possibly be traced back to a change in the intake or exhaust. Perhaps it would have contributed to the failure, perhaps not, but there are many "experts" who could be coerced into saying that indeed it did. Regardless of the Magnuson-Moss Act, beware and be very careful.

This is a really valid point. I've made the point before that an after market exhaust pipe should not, according to Magnuson-Moss, void the warranty on electrical stuff, or something unrelated like that. It wouldn't be hard to make a convincing argument that a pipe is either the direct or secondary cause of an engine failure. Your warranty claim could then easily be denied.

[ericalm]

Oh, are we still talking about the warranties?

[Bryce-O-Rama]

Oh, are we still talking about the warranties?

I don't read here often enough to reply in a timely manner, it seems.