slid out in rain - tires partly to blame?

[Carbolic]

Well, I had my first "real" crash yesterday, not counting the time I put the scooter down on my gravel road at about 2 MPH.

I was heading to class yesterday, and it was raining. My ride to school is only about 3/4 of a mile but there's still plenty of opportunity to make a stupid mistake.

I was going downhill at about 30 mph and approaching a red light. I made a split-second decision to stop shorter than I had planned to, in order to leave an opening between myself and the car in front of me through which oncoming cars could make left turns. I've braked harder in dry conditions and been just fine, but of course the road yesterday was soaking wet.

I'm guessing I had slowed to about 15-20 MPH by the time I felt the bike sliding out from under me. I had just enough time to think "here we go," and then I was on my butt, sliding for probably 15 feet or so. Ironically, the same thing that had caused the accident (the wet road) also mitigated my injuries. I slid along the wet road surface without so much as a tear in my jeans.

When I came to a stop, I immediately grabbed the bike, which had slid along in front of me, picked it up, and started pushing it off the road. Luckily, there had been no cars behind me when I crashed. However, there was a car bearing down on me as I started pushing the scooter off the road. I could actually hear its tires sliding on the road as it tried to stop short of hitting me. I hustled and managed to push the bike out of the way just before the car would have clipped the scooter's back end.

I was lucky to walk away with a few bumps and bruises. The crash was definitely caused by my braking too hard on a wet surface, but I'm also wondering if my tires played a part. I've got a 2006 Buddy Italia with the stock whitewall Shinkos. I've read bad things about them on this site.

So, my question is: would I possibly not have slid at all if I had great tires on the bike? Or was I doomed regardless, due to braking hard on a downhill grade in the rain?

[jmazza]

In short, yes. In my experience those Shinkos never had a solid grip, and in rain were even worse. I've got Michelin S1's on my Italia now and the difference in traction in all conditions is very measurable.

However, the words "split-second decision" probably had more to do with going down than anything, as you know. Split second decisions and rain are not a great combo!!

Get some better tires on your bike and you will definitely see an improvement. And glad you're ok!!

Please take a moment to post about your slide in the Who's Crashed? thread. We keep a lot of data there on accidents so everyone can learn how easy it is for them to happen.

Ride safely!

[Skootz Kabootz]

Glad you are ok! Hope you're still feeling as pain free the day after. This is a good reminder to all of us about the changing road conditions that accompany the the change of seasons....

[jwarfield]

Glad to hear there were no major injuries! I ride a Roughouse 50 and am a little leery of the wet traction with the stock tires. I'm thinking about upgrading as well.

Good luck!

[Major Redneck]

I remember that lesson... Same as you slide did not hurt anything on me broke the left clutch leaver... Had to jumpstart it in 2nd and speedshift it home...

[Carbolic]

In short, yes. In my experience those Shinkos never had a solid grip, and in rain were even worse. I've got Michelin S1's on my Italia now and the difference in traction in all conditions is very measurable.

However, the words "split-second decision" probably had more to do with going down than anything, as you know. Split second decisions and rain are not a great combo!!

Get some better tires on your bike and you will definitely see an improvement. And glad you're ok!!

Please take a moment to post about your slide in the Who's Crashed? thread. We keep a lot of data there on accidents so everyone can learn how easy it is for them to happen.

I agree about the "split-second decision" thing. When faced with that, you do whatever you're used to doing. In my case, I was used to being able to stop very quickly in dry conditions, so that was my default mode.

Thanks for the advice--I'll be sure to post this in "Who's Crashed?"

[Carbolic]

Glad you are ok! Hope you're still feeling as pain free the day after. This is a good reminder to all of us about the changing road conditions that accompany the the change of seasons....

Thanks! Not completely pain-free, though. My tailbone is pretty sore where I rode the pavement, and it's radiating up into my back a little, but I think I'll be fine.

Nothing a little beer and Scotch can't fix.

[jmazza]

In short, yes. In my experience those Shinkos never had a solid grip, and in rain were even worse. I've got Michelin S1's on my Italia now and the difference in traction in all conditions is very measurable.

However, the words "split-second decision" probably had more to do with going down than anything, as you know. Split second decisions and rain are not a great combo!!

Get some better tires on your bike and you will definitely see an improvement. And glad you're ok!!

Please take a moment to post about your slide in the Who's Crashed? thread. We keep a lot of data there on accidents so everyone can learn how easy it is for them to happen.

I agree about the "split-second decision" thing. When faced with that, you do whatever you're used to doing. In my case, I was used to being able to stop very quickly in dry conditions, so that was my default mode.

Thanks for the advice--I'll be sure to post this in "Who's Crashed?"

Yup, but definitely get those Shinkos replaced with something really good when it's time. You'll be amazed at the difference. With the Shinkos I always felt like the rear tire was just a second away from slipping out on every turn.

[Portland_Rider]

Glad you are ok! Hope you're still feeling as pain free the day after. This is a good reminder to all of us about the changing road conditions that accompany the the change of seasons....

Thanks! Not completely pain-free, though. My tailbone is pretty sore where I rode the pavement, and it's radiating up into my back a little, but I think I'll be fine.

Nothing a little beer and Scotch can't fix.

I hope you heal fast and fully.

The tailbone is a very sensitive area with a lot of nerves and the potential to have serious long-term pain or problems. Hopefully, all you have are some minor temporary bruises and pain to heal from. Have you considered going to see a medical professional to be examined just to be safe?

Take care.

[jrsjr]

May I make an observation that has nothing to do with tires? When I read your post, I basically never got past this sentence.

I made a split-second decision...

Here's my thing. Have you ever watched a a MotoGP or WSBK race where they are racing in the rain? Those guys can lap the tracks at amazing speeds in the wet. Watch one of the races on Speed channel sometime and you will hear the announcer go on and on about how smoothly the front-runners are riding. And that's the secret. It's all about smoothness. Make decisions early and then concentrate on executing all braking and turning as smoothly as possible.

If you're interested, I'm not talking through my hat here. There's good physics behind this technique. Did you ever seen one of those friction curves in a physics text? They always go up and up, then sudenly drop off at some magic number (which is when the skid starts). If you had a graph of the grip of your tire in the wet, it would look like that. It grips, Grips, GRIPS, then skids. When you ride smoothly, what you are doing is managing the grip of your tire by not making any sudden braking that will, even for a split second, cause the grip of your tire to climb that curve to the maximum point and over in to the skid zone. That's the secret to avoiding a skip.

Good rubber helps, too, but a well-trained rider on mediocre rubber can outride an untrained rider on good rubber. You can't beat physics, dude.

Whew! Sorry for the long-winded post. Hope it helps.

[B02S4]

No matter what kind of rider you are, or what tires you have, the key to riding in the rain on a 2 wheel vehicle is to be much smoother & go slower than what you normally do on dry pavement.

As a general rule if you ride in the wet like you have 25% of the available traction that you would under normal dry conditions then you should be OK.

[Carbolic]

Glad you are ok! Hope you're still feeling as pain free the day after. This is a good reminder to all of us about the changing road conditions that accompany the the change of seasons....

Thanks! Not completely pain-free, though. My tailbone is pretty sore where I rode the pavement, and it's radiating up into my back a little, but I think I'll be fine.

Nothing a little beer and Scotch can't fix.

I hope you heal fast and fully.

The tailbone is a very sensitive area with a lot of nerves and the potential to have serious long-term pain or problems. Hopefully, all you have are some minor temporary bruises and pain to heal from. Have you considered going to see a medical professional to be examined just to be safe?

Take care.

I might get checked out if the pain isn't significantly better a week out from the crash. As of right now, it's gotten a little better with each day.

It's my understanding that hairline fractures on the tailbone can't really be treated; you just have to live with the pain until it heals itself. I could be wrong, though.

[Carbolic]

May I make an observation that has nothing to do with tires? When I read your post, I basically never got past this sentence.

I made a split-second decision...

Here's my thing. Have you ever watched a a MotoGP or WSBK race where they are racing in the rain? Those guys can lap the tracks at amazing speeds in the wet. Watch one of the races on Speed channel sometime and you will hear the announcer go on and on about how smoothly the front-runners are riding. And that's the secret. It's all about smoothness. Make decisions early and then concentrate on executing all braking and turning as smoothly as possible.

If you're interested, I'm not talking through my hat here. There's good physics behind this technique. Did you ever seen one of those friction curves in a physics text? They always go up and up, then sudenly drop off at some magic number (which is when the skid starts). If you had a graph of the grip of your tire in the wet, it would look like that. It grips, Grips, GRIPS, then skids. When you ride smoothly, what you are doing is managing the grip of your tire by not making any sudden braking that will, even for a split second, cause the grip of your tire to climb that curve to the maximum point and over in to the skid zone. That's the secret to avoiding a skip.

Good rubber helps, too, but a well-trained rider on mediocre rubber can outride an untrained rider on good rubber. You can't beat physics, dude.

Whew! Sorry for the long-winded post. Hope it helps.

Yeah, I'm not not trying to shirk responsibility for the crash. I screwed up, for sure. Live (thankfully) and learn.

[jrsjr]

Yeah, I'm not not trying to shirk responsibility for the crash. I screwed up, for sure. Live (thankfully) and learn.

I apologize if the tone of my post was a little blunt. I wasn't trying to gig you or anything. Since you live in Portland, I expect that you will become one of our expert wet-weather riders. There are lots of pieces to the puzzle including tires, slowing down, reading the road surface carefully, riding in the "footprint" of the cars in front of you, and smoothing out your braking and maneuvering. Put all those pieces together at the same time and you will be good to go in the wet.

Ride safe!

[Carbolic]

Yeah, I'm not not trying to shirk responsibility for the crash. I screwed up, for sure. Live (thankfully) and learn.

I apologize if the tone of my post was a little blunt. I wasn't trying to gig you or anything. Since you live in Portland, I expect that you will become one of our expert wet-weather riders. There are lots of pieces to the puzzle including tires, slowing down, reading the road surface carefully, riding in the "footprint" of the cars in front of you, and smoothing out your braking and maneuvering. Put all those pieces together at the same time and you will be good to go in the wet.

Ride safe!

No problem, your post wasn't too blunt. No offense taken at all.

The thing I'm kicking myself over is that I learned all of those wet-riding techniques in the MSF class I took last May. For some reason, my judgment and memory just failed me, which as you pointed out is a danger of making split-second decisions in poor riding conditions. I should have been doing everything in my power to eliminate the need to make split-second decisions.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, and Happy Halloween!

[Vic]

This is a good example of why habits that we gain during prime conditions come back and bite us in the ass later on when we react when something happens and the road conditions aren't primo.
.
Those of us in the northern hemisphere are entering winter. We need to watch our riding and review what we are doing to make sure we didn't pick up and new bad habits. Maybe review some sites about riding skills and go out and do some drills in a parking lot.
.
Remember the cardinal rule of traction: only change one thing at a time, change your speed OR change your direction, never change both.
.
I would venture that you might have instinctually pulled over to one side or another (usually Americans pull right) in an effort to stop faster and that was the straw that broke the camel's back.
.
As far as your tailbone is concerned, they really can't do anyting for/about a busted tailbone. I snapped the tip off mine giving birth to my daughter. It has been 11 years and it still hurts when I sit for a while and iit hurts when the weather changes. At the time my doctor told me that she could order an x-ray and all of that, but it would not matter anyway. Hopefully, it is just bruised and will heal up soon and you will be as good as new. Definitely take it easy and do NOT use those stupid donut cushions or whatever-they do not help and do not take the pressure off of the tailbone.

Cheers,
-v

[Rippinyarn]

Add in wet leaves (they don't call where I live Royal Oak for nothing) and you can have a real mess, real fast. I'm really taking it easy getting out of the neighborhood these wet mornings.

[rickko]

Assuming: Your rear tire slid out to the right.

You said you were going downhill. That puts more weight on front end; less on rear tire.

Water causes hydroplaning (lifting tire off paved surface). This phenomena is enhanced with less weight on the rear tire.

Sliding the rear end to the right is because you subconsiously shifted or flinched your weight to the left. Probably due to natural instinct.

Cure: This is VERY hard to do but you should have released your rear brake to get the wheel to roll again. That would have snapped you upright. At the same time gradually apply more front brake.

Sliding left or right is from losing traction by to much application of rear brake and operator shifting weight in opposite direction of slide. To keep traction (most important) and control you MUST relax your rear brake pressure if/when you feel scooter sliding out from under you.

After this experience I'm sure it won't happen again. The brain will not forget.

Glad you survived it OK.
..rickko..

[Carbolic]

This is a good example of why habits that we gain during prime conditions come back and bite us in the ass later on when we react when something happens and the road conditions aren't primo.
.
Those of us in the northern hemisphere are entering winter. We need to watch our riding and review what we are doing to make sure we didn't pick up and new bad habits. Maybe review some sites about riding skills and go out and do some drills in a parking lot.
.
Remember the cardinal rule of traction: only change one thing at a time, change your speed OR change your direction, never change both.
.
I would venture that you might have instinctually pulled over to one side or another (usually Americans pull right) in an effort to stop faster and that was the straw that broke the camel's back.
.
As far as your tailbone is concerned, they really can't do anyting for/about a busted tailbone. I snapped the tip off mine giving birth to my daughter. It has been 11 years and it still hurts when I sit for a while and iit hurts when the weather changes. At the time my doctor told me that she could order an x-ray and all of that, but it would not matter anyway. Hopefully, it is just bruised and will heal up soon and you will be as good as new. Definitely take it easy and do NOT use those stupid donut cushions or whatever-they do not help and do not take the pressure off of the tailbone.

Cheers,
-v

Exactly: just because I can stop on a dime in good weather doesn't mean I should. That bad habit almost literally bit me in the ass. Speaking of, my tailbone is feeling a lot better with each passing day, which I'll take as a good sign. When I was a kid I fell on my butt in a game of tug-of-war and it was about a year before my tailbone stopped aching.

[Carbolic]

Assuming: Your rear tire slid out to the right.

You said you were going downhill. That puts more weight on front end; less on rear tire.

Water causes hydroplaning (lifting tire off paved surface). This phenomena is enhanced with less weight on the rear tire.

Sliding the rear end to the right is because you subconsiously shifted or flinched your weight to the left. Probably due to natural instinct.

Cure: This is VERY hard to do but you should have released your rear brake to get the wheel to roll again. That would have snapped you upright. At the same time gradually apply more front brake.

Sliding left or right is from losing traction by to much application of rear brake and operator shifting weight in opposite direction of slide. To keep traction (most important) and control you MUST relax your rear brake pressure if/when you feel scooter sliding out from under you.

After this experience I'm sure it won't happen again. The brain will not forget.

Glad you survived it OK.
..rickko..

You are correct: my rear tire slid out to the right.

As far as letting off the rear brake to get the bike to "snap" back upright, doesn't that run the risk of causing a high-side flip? In the MSF class I took, they said this is due to the rear tire regaining traction when it's pointed in a different direction than the front tire.

Not that either option is great, but it seems like the low-side slide-out is the lesser evil compared to the high-side flip.

Please feel free to correct me if I don't have my facts straight on this.

[rickko]

...As far as letting off the rear brake to get the bike to "snap" back upright, doesn't that run the risk of causing a high-side flip? In the MSF class I took, they said this is due to the rear tire regaining traction when it's pointed in a different direction than the front tire.

Not that either option is great, but it seems like the low-side slide-out is the lesser evil compared to the high-side flip.

Please feel free to correct me if I don't have my facts straight on this.

Well, I guess we are both right. The MSF is correct if you've waited too long before releasing the brake and the slide becomes pronounced. If you release quick enough after sensing the slide (and depending on how much you've slide out) you'll have a good chance of avoiding the high-side flip.

Usually, if you recover from the slide-out you and your scooter will be heading in a new direction (i.e. 20+ to 40 degrees from the direction you were originally heading.

After what you experienced, how would you like to be this guy! 800 lb. m/c + snow + downhill!


Photographer: Buck Lovell

[Carbolic]

...As far as letting off the rear brake to get the bike to "snap" back upright, doesn't that run the risk of causing a high-side flip? In the MSF class I took, they said this is due to the rear tire regaining traction when it's pointed in a different direction than the front tire.

Not that either option is great, but it seems like the low-side slide-out is the lesser evil compared to the high-side flip.

Please feel free to correct me if I don't have my facts straight on this.

Well, I guess we are both right. The MSF is correct if you've waited too long before releasing the brake and the slide becomes pronounced. If you release quick enough after sensing the slide (and depending on how much you've slide out) you'll have a good chance of avoiding the high-side flip.

Usually, if you recover from the slide-out you and your scooter will be heading in a new direction (i.e. 20+ to 40 degrees from the direction you were originally heading.

After what you experienced, how would you like to be this guy!


Photographer: Buck Lovell

That dude in the pic is hardcore! Or just insane. Probably both.

[Drumwoulf]

May I make an observation that has nothing to do with tires? When I read your post, I basically never got past this sentence.

I made a split-second decision...

Here's my thing. Have you ever watched a a MotoGP or WSBK race where they are racing in the rain? Those guys can lap the tracks at amazing speeds in the wet. Watch one of the races on Speed channel sometime and you will hear the announcer go on and on about how smoothly the front-runners are riding. And that's the secret. It's all about smoothness. Make decisions early and then concentrate on executing all braking and turning as smoothly as possible.
If you're interested, I'm not talking through my hat here. There's good physics behind this technique. Did you ever seen one of those friction curves in a physics text? They always go up and up, then sudenly drop off at some magic number (which is when the skid starts). If you had a graph of the grip of your tire in the wet, it would look like that. It grips, Grips, GRIPS, then skids. When you ride smoothly, what you are doing is managing the grip of your tire by not making any sudden braking that will, even for a split second, cause the grip of your tire to climb that curve to the maximum point and over in to the skid zone. That's the secret to avoiding a skip.
Good rubber helps, too, but a well-trained rider on mediocre rubber can outride an untrained rider on good rubber. You can't beat physics, dude.
Whew! Sorry for the long-winded post. Hope it helps.

Yes, but there's a difference betwixt a split second decision and a split second impuse decision..!
Impulse decisions are wrong when you would've had enough time to do something else more slowly and sensibly. -But some other split second decisions can save your ass!

A short while back I had a fawn run out quick and low in front of my scoot! But he completely disappeared after I hit him, and as I heard a thump but didn't suffer any damage I can only conclude that my split second decision to jump on the brakes meant that I only clipped his rear leg or butt as he ran past me! So I believe that with enough riding experience many riders can learn to feel what the bike's braking limits are, and not too quickly or too firmly jam down on the brake levers!

Of course I was also lucky in that the road wasn't wet, or there were no leaves underfoot, but still, that split second reaction to hit the brakes probably saved me a lot of pain!

[ericalm]

It's hard to say how much the tires contributed to the crash. In wet conditions, even good tires can slide at relatively low speeds. You may have still gone down.

Still, better tires will definitely help.

And, though I'm not saying this was the case in your crash, it's all moot if the tires aren't kept properly inflated. I know quite a few responsible scooterists—every day riders—who don't check their pressure regularly and discover they're riding with 15 PSI.

[Elm Creek Smith]

I know quite a few responsible scooterists—every day riders—who don't check their pressure regularly and discover they're riding with 15 PSI.

+1

I hadn't ridden for a while due to weather/health issues, and I went charging out of the garage on my Budd last week. Cranked it hard around the corner up at the green stoplight and felt the rear end sort of lurch as the underinflated rear tire shifted. If I had been going faster, two things could have happened, both of them bad. I could have gone down as the tire lost grip, or I could have gone down when the tire bead let go of the rim. I stopped and got a new tire pressure gauge that holds the pressure reading until I hit the release button.

ECS

[gt1000]

As far as letting off the rear brake to get the bike to "snap" back upright, doesn't that run the risk of causing a high-side flip?

First of all, there are no absolutes. The conditions you described would make a high side difficult to achieve. Generally speaking, a high side needs to be carrying a significant amount of speed when the rear tire regains traction. Also, that rear tire needs to regain traction "right now" which might not happen with a slick road.

High sides are typically much, much worse than low sides so it's always prudent to opt for the low side if you have a choice. In your situation, I would've taken the chance and released the rear brake. And typically, in that sort of riding, I'm avoiding the rear brake except for extremely light applications.

That said, the stock Buddy tires aren't the greatest and can lose traction with little or no warning in wet conditions. I modify my riding habits significantly in the rain with the Buddy.

[Cheshire]

Only putting this out there because it hasn't been mentioned (that I noticed).
My MSF instructor told us that a high-side isn't the only thing you can cause letting go of the brake once your rear tire's locked and skidding. That snap as the tires realign themselves is (I was told) the prime cause of what's called a "tank slapper", since it jerks hard enough to yank your hands off the bars and slap the tank on a motorcycle. Since scooters don't have anything there but open air and then our laps...that might be very Not Fun.

Regardless, hope your tailbone's feeling better, and glad to hear nothing major came of the wreck!