Dead Buddy 125 - fuel, fuel, everywhere.

350kmi · Post by **350kmi** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:50 am

About two weeks ago I picked up a Red 2007 Buddy 125 and until this evening I have been very happy with the bike. Here’s what happened: I left work this evening with 306 miles on the clock, stop for gas midway across town at 312 miles (96 MPG BTW), 25 minutes and 11 miles later I stopped at a store for about 25 minutes, then rode another 4 blocks to another store. When I came out 15 minutes later there was a puddle of gas about 2’ in diameter under my Buddy.

The fuel was leaking from the bottom rear of the air box so I took the cover off the box (that resulted in a big splash) and removed the air cleaner to get a better idea where the fuel was coming from. It was running down the big intake tube from the carb. My first thought was a bad fuel tap so I pulled the feed line off the tap but it wasn’t leaking. Being a former ET4 owner, I next pulled the spark plug to see if gas was also leaking into the cylinder - it seemed maybe a little damp but not flooded - the oil also looked to be at the right level and free of gas. By this point about 30 minutes had past and fuel running down the intake tube had slowed to a drip about every 15 sec., so I put the plug back in to checked if it would start. With a bit of throttle play it started but didn’t want to idle so I shut it back off. Fuel was again pouring down the intake tube. Again I pulled the line from the fuel tap but it still seemed to be doing its job. As far as I can tell, the fuel leaks for about 15 minutes after the engine is shut off, I have ridden about 11 miles since I last filled the tank but the fuel gauge is already down to 3/4.

I still kind of suspect the fuel tap but I have checked it 4 times now and each time is seems to be holding the fuel back. My second guess was that maybe I over filled the tank the last time I fueled and that the charcoal canister for emissions filled with gas, but I didn’t fill the tank any higher than the pervious times and it ran fine for 11 miles and two starts. Also, that wouldn’t explain why the fuel starts to leak again when the engine is restarted. Maybe the float valve in the carb. is leaking but if the fuel tap is working...

The bike is under warranty so repairs should be covered, but my nearest dealer is 90 miles away and the bike doesn’t really fit in my Corolla, even if it is a wagon. If anyone has any suggestions I’d be happy to hear them. Thanks in advance.

scullyfu · Post by **scullyfu** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:20 am

dang, i'm sorry to hear about that, 350. unfortunately, i know not one iota about mechanical things, so i can't help you out with any suggestions. but there are some amazing folks on this list who have probably forgotten more about engines than i could ever hope to know. so, i'm sure they'll get back to you with lots of options and probably a solution or two. again, sorry.

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Tue May 22, 2007 4:18 am

I understand about the distance to the dealer; however, considering how few miles you have on the scoot, and how many things the gas could have gotten into, I'd suggest finding a way to get the bike to the dealer so they can fix it and make sure nothing else has been damaged in the process. Call them, explain what's going on, and ask them what to do about it, and also mention to them that you'd like to avoid a second trip for the 500 mile service. The Buddy does come with a roadside service plan, so there may be something they can do for you there as well; it's common for such plans to cover towing to the nearest dealer.

350kmi · Post by **350kmi** » Tue May 22, 2007 4:48 am

Yeah, I called the dealer first thing when it died and they are more than happy to fix it - I just have to get it to them. I asked about the roadside assistance and they though it was only good for a tow of 5 (or so) miles. I suppose I could call Genuine to double check this. I rented a truck to go pick it up, I'm just not to excited about doing it again. Cheap, I know. On the bright side, 325 miles into the break-in it would probably be ok to ride it home once repaired. Thanks for the note about the 500 mile check up.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue May 22, 2007 8:14 am

I think the roadside assistance covers up to $150 in towing costs. So the distance probably varies. 90 miles should be ok though.

Did you remove the vacuum hose coming from the fuel valve? The fuel could be leaking from there. Sometimes the diaphragm inside the fuel valve will leak and allow fuel to reach the vacuum hose. I know the vacuum hose goes to the intake manifold but if the intake valve happened to be in the closed position, the fuel would leak into the carb and then into the airbox. There have been a few buddies with the exact same symptoms you described and it turned out to be a bad fuel valve. Good Luck!

JeremyZ · Post by **JeremyZ** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:35 pm

Don't screw with it or troubleshoot it. It's not your problem. That's why you bought a NEW scooter, with a kickass warranty. Just figure out how to get it to your dealer. Have them tow it and pay the difference, call a friend with a pickup or minivan, whatever.

Make THEM fix it, so that if it happens again, it isn't your problem then either.

EBee · Post by **EBee** » Tue May 22, 2007 1:25 pm

350KMI:

I had this EXACT THING happen to me not long after I got my Buddy...it's the auto fuel shutoff valve. I filled my tank twice and both times gas trickled out overnight through the air filter tube. I also thought maybe I had overfilled it or something but the next day the tank would be nearly empty.

It was covered under warranty but took two months to get the part...luckily for me this happened during the early winter when I wasn't riding much anyway but still...I missed some really nice 60-degree riding days.

As a newbie it was hard for me to get my dealer to understand what was happening, first of all because I wasn't familiar with the mechanics of the scooter and second, they hadn't had any trouble with any of the other Buddys they sold. Somewhere in this forum is my old thread (Nov-Dec) describing very much what happened to you, except my dealer wasn't so far away. My husband managed to resuscitate it long enough to ride it to the dealer.

350kmi · Post by **350kmi** » Tue May 22, 2007 1:33 pm

Thanks for the replies. I'll give Genuine a call this morning to see if I can get the specifics on towing values allowable. I checked the fuel line from the valve but no the vacuum line - good idea.

paige · Post by **paige** » Tue May 22, 2007 4:54 pm

Do get specific dollar amounts allowed for towing. I had a bike fail on me about 4 miles from my house. Piaggio Roadside Assistance took 3 hours to get me a tow truck that they covered the first $100 of, which meant I had to cover $60 out of pocket to get the stupid thing home. On the first day I had it.

350kmi · Post by **350kmi** » Sun May 27, 2007 12:32 am

I just picked my scoot back up from the shop this afternoon. The fuel leak was caused by a bad fuel tap (valve.) Scooter Therapy in Madison (WI) just this week picked up the Genuine line again (they carried Stellas '03 ->'05) which worked out well for me as it was much easier get the Buddy across town than back to the dealer where I bought it 80 some miles away. Incidentally, the roadside assistance plan that comes with the scoots covers up to $150 towards a tow. In my case with the far away dealer the tow cost would have been $210 so I would have had to cover the extra $60.

So, new fuel tap in place, fuel staying where it should, and back down the road I go.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:30 pm

I am following this with great interest b/c I posted with a similar problem several weeks ago, and it has persisted despite earnest attempts at repair which lasted a little while each time and then the issue returns. Typically the gas was leaking after a fill up. POC my dealer has been really great, but Genuine needs to step up to the plate and send them what ever parts/support is needed to get this Buddy back in tip top shape rather than just band aiding.

The odd thing we went on a longish ride yesterday (about 60 miles) and I went on a few little trips after the big ride. The Buddy ran well. then I ran up to the store, was in there for 3 minutes and the Buddy was gushing fuel and would not start. We had to push it a few blocks to my office where I unhappily locked it up for the night and expected it to be gone in the AM. It is not a good feeling to be pushing the Buddy through a impoverished, vacant (holiday wekend), urban area...in fact we were literally chased down the street by thugs right after we pulled into my office lot. I will say Black Buddy made a swift escape 2 up.

Anyway I am hoping mine can be fixed for keeps. POC says they have not encountered this issue with any other Buddy. While the symtoms are the same, I am not sure if this is the same cause as 350 KI. I hope to find out soon. Now my next question is perhaps the most important. How do I steal the Black Buddy from the husband until this is resolved? Discuss.

Tbone · Post by **Tbone** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:34 pm

IN most cases with married couples...sex...

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:43 pm

I am assuming you are a guy...and I did not know my hus was on this board!

JeremyZ · Post by **JeremyZ** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:02 pm

I had a similar problem with my Kawasaki Concours, it turned out to be some kind of obstruction in the fuel line. From what I remember, this piece of dirt or sand kept the vacuum controlled fuel valve from closing. So fuel kept flowing into the carb. Of course, once the float bowl is full, the only place it can come out is through the air filter, where it pours out on to the street.

I had the dealer clean it out and install a fuel filter. No problems after that.

I don't believe the Buddy has a fuel tap, per se. When one refers to a fuel tap, one is usually referring to the valve the switches between RESERVE/ON/OFF. The Buddy has no reserve, it is on or off dependent on vacuum. I think something blocking that vacuum is more likely than a defective valve. Of course, the easy way to address this is to replace the fuel tap, which also gets ride of the obstruction in the fuel tap. Then the dealer tells you it was a bad fuel tap.

Of course, I could be wrong and it is a bad tap. But there seems to be many dozens of us who don't have the problem and only two that have... Infer what you will.

Two things:

- Don't fill up from a gas station while the tanker's there or anytime within 24 hours afterwards. Go to another station. When the underground tanks are refilled, it disturbs all the crap in the bottom of the tanks.

- Consider adding a fuel filter between the tank & the valve. (I recall seeing on towards the back of the Buddy, but I don't know where in the system it is located. Can someone confirm? I'll try to remember to check when I get home.

My dad has a 1992 Suzuki VX800 motorcycle that has a defective fuel petcock (the on/off/reserve type) Rather than replace it with a part known to be defective, he added another valve inline with it, between it and the tank, and he just turns it off after every ride. This also acts as a sort of theft limitation. If someone steals it, he will only get a block or two before he runs out of gas, hehehe.

EBee · Post by **EBee** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:51 pm

JeremyZ wrote:- Don't fill up from a gas station while the tanker's there or anytime within 24 hours afterwards. Go to another station. When the underground tanks are refilled, it disturbs all the crap in the bottom of the tanks.

Hey Jeremy, this is an interesting tidbit to me...I'm guessing this also applies to fueling up cars as well? Maybe I can bug the folks at my nearby station to give me an idea of their fueling schedule.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:03 am

"I had the dealer clean it out and install a fuel filter. No problems after that."

We did cross that off the list already. It is funny about the gas station. I would hope our scooters and cars were equipped to handle this and such babying is a precaution undertaken only by the most anal of people. As I mentioned in other threads our black buddy lives the same life/physician/ diet (we often fill up at the same time) as the cream and it has been flawless from day 1. The cream is a tempremental, spoiled, but endearing, little punk (it doesnt like the cold either); while the black is a loyal, grateful, never complaining steed. Go figure.

350kmi · Post by **350kmi** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:59 am

So far mine is still running great. In the 3 days I've had it back its transversed 155 miles (two 30 stints, and a bunch of 3-8 mile runs) and been started/shut down about 15 times. Time will tell.

On the Buddy the fuel tap (on/off, open when vacuum applied, valve thing) screws right into the bottom of the fuel tank so some modification would be needed to add a filter between the tap and the tank. It does have an in line filter between the tap and the carb. There does look like there would be space to add a second manually operated valve if you wanted. That would take care of any vacuum tap leaks.

With the leak on my Buddy, the fellow at the shop removed both the vacuum and fuel lines from the tap and showed me that fuel was leaking and running out fuel outlet. I suppose it is possible some dirt got stuck in the valve not allowing it to close. This is the second tap failure I have have in about 25,000 miles of vacuum fuel tap scooting. The other time was on my former Vespa ET4 which did actually have a filter between the tank and the tap but the ETs seem known for having fuel tap issues.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:45 pm

well I am all fixed (lets hope for good) and on the road again. As it happens, Phil from POC advised it was the "vacuum auto cock" --who knew? It was replaced and I am hoping I am good to go.

350kmi · Post by **350kmi** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:38 am

My new "vacuum auto cock" (different names but same part) has been in for just about a week and 240 miles. All is still good. Hopefully this will be the fix for the temperamentalness of both our scoots.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:41 pm

Seems to me someone could come up with a manual petcock with a remote lever like on the old Vespas. It would eliminate this recurring problem. If your gas overflowed, it would be because you forgot to turn it off...NOT because something broke.

--Keys

louie · Post by **louie** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:53 pm

Keys wrote:Seems to me someone could come up with a manual petcock with a remote lever like on the old Vespas. It would eliminate this recurring problem. If your gas overflowed, it would be because you forgot to turn it off...NOT because something broke.

--Keys

like on other bikes? that you have to turn a valve on for gas?

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:24 pm

what is funny is everyone but me knows a "vacuum auto cock" is a fuel tap. That is how the Taiwanese techs tried to translate it. Anyway all is well so far.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:47 pm

Louie, that is EXACTLY what I mean. Most modern motorcycles and motorscooters utilize a vacuum operated petcock (fuel tap, if you will). The issue with that is that if there is a change in how the vacuum functions, ie; a cracked or broken vacuum line, or a small tear in the diaphram inside the petcock or something like that, then it's quite likely the petcock itself will malfunction. If we were able to replace that technological marvel with something simple like a manually operated petcock the malfunctions would primarily be our own forgetfulness...not an equipment failure.

--Keys

scullyfu · Post by **scullyfu** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:06 pm

EBee wrote:
JeremyZ wrote:- Don't fill up from a gas station while the tanker's there or anytime within 24 hours afterwards. Go to another station. When the underground tanks are refilled, it disturbs all the crap in the bottom of the tanks.
Hey Jeremy, this is an interesting tidbit to me...I'm guessing this also applies to fueling up cars as well? Maybe I can bug the folks at my nearby station to give me an idea of their fueling schedule.

um, yeah...i asked at my regular station the other morning and was told they get deliveries *everyday*. d'oh!

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:40 am

oh no. again. It must be more than the cock. this is 5 times. Maybe 6 as I lost count.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:19 am

P-body...have the dealer check the floats. If the floats stick in the "down" position, it will behave the same as if the petcock was left open...gas will just run and run into and out of the carburetor. I had this happen to an old Honda motorcycle I had. There was a pinhole in one of the floats and it filled up with gas and wouldn't float to the "up" position, thereby closing the needle valve. If the needle valve doesn't close, the gas just runs.

Ask them to check the float for freedom of movement...ie; no sticking and have them make sure the floats don't have a pinhole allowing either to fill up with gas.

Just an idea...

--Keys

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:39 am

thanks Keys...this sounds familiar. I think they did this-maybe even the first time this happened! My dealer has a very good, competent ,reputation. I think they have trouble shot everything that could possibly cause this. I might be looking at a one in a million (ok, not million) lemon situation. I have every belief that this will be taken care of, all though I am not sure if this means repair anymore. I do not think the Buddy is a bad bike-heck I am a huge advocate in the online community and in the "real world" on the streets, but my mine has more issues (well the same issue over and over)as any they have ever seen. My husbands Buddy is perfect...as are the others of people I personally know or have turned on to the Bud.

pocphil · Post by **pocphil** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:06 pm

Just a little update on Lynlee's scooter -

For all you long-range-mechanic types out there;

We've swapped / tested / replaced and measured:

Fuel Float in Carb
Vacuum Autocock
Float needle
Fuel line
Air Bleed line
Fuel Tank
Carb

The entire fuel system has been replaced and the worst problem is after making a change we test the bike and the customer takes it home and then rides it with no problems for a few days...then, all of a sudden it starts purging again. We then bring it into the shop, fill it up to the very-tip-top with fuel, let it run for 30 minutes so it gets plenty hot and then shut it down. If ever it were to flood out...this would be the time and it sits there dry as a bone.

What everyone on this list needs to realize is there is one critical difference between our (US import) bikes and the bike that the engineers at PGO have been building for years...Emissions Devices.

I am now of the opinion that the vapor recovery tank or some other aspect of the vapor recovery system in this particular scooter is experiencing a temporary blockage. This is causing a substantial vacuum in the lower part of the fuel system that is holding open the vacuum operated autocock. In normal situations the float needle assembly would shut off the fuel flow after it sufficiently filled the float bowl in the carb. With a full tank of fuel there is too much head pressure and the float needle simply can't hold back the flow.

Now, I would LIKE to remove every inch of EPA plumbing on these scooters as I'm 100% positive that what the US EPA mandates we install on these scooters has NOTHING to do with what comes out the tailpipe.

However, removing these EPA mandated devices is ILLEGAL, especially for a dealer. Since I'm not really fond of the idea of giving up my business and paying tens of thousands of dollars in fines I will continue to try to repair this scooter within the bounds of the EPA mandated equipment.

Genuine has been wonderful through this whole ordeal, they have opened up a line of communication with the actual product engineers in Taiwan and we are troubleshooting the problem via e-mail. I know of no other company in the world that would allow me that kind of access.

Lynlee has also been fantastic, I am at the point where I am ready to simply give her another scooter to be able to spend more time troubleshooting / diagnosing this problem. There may be a change in store for the Emissions control system on these scooters, but I can honestly say that this is only the 3rd bike I'm aware of having trouble, and there have been thousands sold. I'm beginning to think the problem may be with an aftermarket company's emission control device that PGO may have no control over.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:23 pm

Phil, you da man! Now that I know Lynlee is your customer, I know she's in good hands. Thanks for the update...and yeah, we weren't trying to take your place, out here in 'net-land, we were just offering whatever meager suggestions we might have.

--Keys

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:39 pm

I vote that Cream Buddy's body be donated to science to benifit the future Buddys and Genuine hook me up ...or check out Ohios interesting lemon statutes. I have been pretty nice since POC folks rock, know what they are doing, and have demonstrated outstanding customer service-and this problem is not their fault. Me get more angry with corporate folk though...

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:44 am

update:Cream Buddy has been hospitalized and receiving fluids. Pride of Cleveland Scooters has gone very far above and beyond to let me borrow a cream 07 while exploritory surgery is done on mine. sweet! Shame on Genuine if this is not made all right in the end. They are lucky to have such a great dealer in their network. If the customer service were not so great at POC I would have been be all over Genuine.

sid · Post by **sid** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:49 am

Hey there. I may be years late to this party but, I've got the same issue. Here's what happened:

1) Open garage, smells like gas, big puddle of gas under Kate's 06 Buddy 125.
2) Gas dripping from air box. Wont start, more drips.

Bike wasn't just filled up. Wasn't tipped over. Stops dripping quickly. Sits for days while she rides on back of one of mine.

3) Bike starts. Doesn't run smoothly. I shut off.
4) Open air box, drain gas in it.
5) Bike starts and runs smoothly.
6) No more drips.
7) Pull the fuel line off of the fuel stop/valve/vacuum thing and it's not dripping fuel.

So do I assume something was lodged in the valve but worked it's way out and move on with my life, or do I need to replace the valve as it's dying? Or should I be doing some other trouble shooting to make sure it's not the float/needle/something in the carb that's flooding out the engine? Should I change the oil to make sure gas didn't make it into the oil? Probably should replace the air filter I guess.

Thanks for any insight.

Modern Buddy

Dead Buddy 125 - fuel, fuel, everywhere.

Dead Buddy 125 - fuel, fuel, everywhere.

Back on the road again.