Has anyone run an air/fuel ratio meter on their Buddy??

[B-rad]

I really want to do this on mine. I just don't see any good spots on the header to mount an o2 sensor. I just hate guessing at my fuel air mix all the time. I am notorious for running engines too lean and then blowing them up.
All it takes is:
1 wire universal o2 sensor 20-30 bucks (snowmobile, motorcycle etc,)
1 air/fuel meter 25-60 bucks
12v supply

The reason I say 1 wire o2 sensor is because you would be so close to the head, you would not need a heated o2 sensor.

C'mon motorheads!! Someone needs to do this. I am still stuck in the armpit of the world (Iraq) but, I still feel like being able to tune my scoot by watching the gauge go from red to green is alot easier than pulling the sparkplug out 20 times and using some sort of mystic ability to read it.

Ps. I know Koso makes a whole kit for 180, but come on... scooter folk are ingenious people who hate having someone else do it for them, right?

[charlie55]

I think that the hardest part would be welding in a fitment for the sensor without compromising the integrity of the pipe. According to the following article, and as you suggest, you wouldn't need a heater as long as your exhaust near the head is about 600F.

The article also states that the O2 sensor generates it's own voltage, typically ranging from 0.2 to 0.9 volts, with a proper mixture indicated at about 0.45V. That being the case, you wouldn't need a 12 volt supply or a fancy meter. A surplus meter set up for 1 or 1.5 volts full-scale would work just fine. (Or you could get one with some other range and mess with it's internal resistor to adjust the scale to your needs).

So, it looks to me at at least that you could bring this project in for very little more than the cost of the sensor, providing you can do your own cutting and welding.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm

[B-rad]

The only reason I wanted a 12v supply was for the digital gauges that are out there. They are slick as a whale turd!!
I just figured, I would have an exhaust shop weld on a bung to the header and then do all the wiring myself. Summit Racing has a huge selection of meters, and they have the bung for as low as 6 bucks. I just bought a Prima exhaust and I figured since I was gonna have to tune the bike anyway, I might as well kill 2 birds with one stone. I was even thinking about mounting a 3 gauge pod and running tach, temp, and a/f !!
Probably overkill, but I am a huge fan of knowing what's going on under the hood.
The Koso kit is pretty slick, and it comes with everything, but I still kinda figured you could do all 3 gauges for the price of their 1 kit

[ScooterTrash]

The only reason I wanted a 12v supply was for the digital gauges that are out there. They are slick as a whale turd!!
I just figured, I would have an exhaust shop weld on a bung to the header and then do all the wiring myself. Summit Racing has a huge selection of meters, and they have the bung for as low as 6 bucks. I just bought a Prima exhaust and I figured since I was gonna have to tune the bike anyway, I might as well kill 2 birds with one stone. I was even thinking about mounting a 3 gauge pod and running tach, temp, and a/f !!
Probably overkill, but I am a huge fan of knowing what's going on under the hood.
The Koso kit is pretty slick, and it comes with everything, but I still kinda figured you could do all 3 gauges for the price of their 1 kit

Your pipe will flow like shit with an 02 sensor in there (pipe diameter too small). If you space it to keep it out of the way you will get inaccurate readings. Lose / Lose. Plus, standard air/fuel is slightly inaccurate anyway, unless you buy a $200 dollar sensor

Best bet is a wide band set up with a clamp on bracket for the tip. Run it long enough to tune then remove This is my method

[Leeroy Jenkins]

˙op plnoʍ ʇı sɹǝqɯnu ɐpuıʞ ʇɐɥʍ ǝǝs oʇ ʇsnɾ ˙ouʎp ǝɥʇ uo ǝdıd ʎɯ uʍop 20 puɐqǝpıʍ ı ʞɔnʇs ı

[KRUSTYburger]

result?

[Kaos]

The only reason I wanted a 12v supply was for the digital gauges that are out there. They are slick as a whale turd!!
I just figured, I would have an exhaust shop weld on a bung to the header and then do all the wiring myself. Summit Racing has a huge selection of meters, and they have the bung for as low as 6 bucks. I just bought a Prima exhaust and I figured since I was gonna have to tune the bike anyway, I might as well kill 2 birds with one stone. I was even thinking about mounting a 3 gauge pod and running tach, temp, and a/f !!
Probably overkill, but I am a huge fan of knowing what's going on under the hood.
The Koso kit is pretty slick, and it comes with everything, but I still kinda figured you could do all 3 gauges for the price of their 1 kit

Your pipe will flow like shit with an 02 sensor in there (pipe diameter too small). If you space it to keep it out of the way you will get inaccurate readings. Lose / Lose. Plus, standard air/fuel is slightly inaccurate anyway, unless you buy a $200 dollar sensor

Best bet is a wide band set up with a clamp on bracket for the tip. Run it long enough to tune then remove This is my method

Like ScooterTrash said , most good O2 sensors arn't going to work in the tiny scooter pipe. I'm somewhat old school, and prefer just tuning via reading the plug and the feel of the carburetor and throttle. Thats how I tune my race cars, and its how I tune my scoot.

[mattgordon]

color me stupid, but what is this exercise supposed to accomplish?

[Kaos]

color me stupid, but what is this exercise supposed to accomplish?

It tells you the ratio of fuel to air in your cylinder so you can determine if you're lean, rich, or stoich.

[B-rad]

I am looking at Ngk's new o2 sensor that is designed for scooters. It is tiny and probably won't impede airflow much. I figure with the prima pipe I should have enough increase in flow to accomodate any loss due to the tip being in the pipe. The sensor is the OZAS-S3 and it is itty bitty. They just came out with it not too long ago specifically for this type of application. I just want something in there that lets me know if I am about to hand grenade my motor.

[ScooterTrash]

I am looking at Ngk's new o2 sensor that is designed for scooters. It is tiny and probably won't impede airflow much. I figure with the prima pipe I should have enough increase in flow to accomodate any loss due to the tip being in the pipe. The sensor is the OZAS-S3 and it is itty bitty. They just came out with it not too long ago specifically for this type of application. I just want something in there that lets me know if I am about to hand grenade my motor.

wow, I have been out of the game too long. That would work great actually. Just make sure the bung it tall enough that only the tip sticks in the pipe and you'll be good to go. Wish it was wideband though.....

[mattgordon]

color me stupid, but what is this exercise supposed to accomplish?

It tells you the ratio of fuel to air in your cylinder so you can determine if you're lean, rich, or stoich.

I was speaking from a standpoint of practical application. Adding a high-tech O2 sensor to the ass-end of a low-tech carbureted engine doesn't seem like it's going to net any improvement in performance, economy, or even an advance warning of "grenading" an engine. Especially in light of the very few jetting choices available to to you.

The primary purpose of an O2 sensor is to allow on-the-fly adjustments of fuel-air ratios, which is available only with EFI technology, which doesn't apply here.

A simple plug-check should tell you if you're too rich or too lean, and when in doubt jetting over-rich is always better (safer) then too lean.

An O2 sensor seems like frivolous overkill on the elegantly simple Buddy engine IMO.

[ScooterTrash]

color me stupid, but what is this exercise supposed to accomplish?

It tells you the ratio of fuel to air in your cylinder so you can determine if you're lean, rich, or stoich.

I was speaking from a standpoint of practical application. Adding a high-tech O2 sensor to the ass-end of a low-tech carbureted engine doesn't seem like it's going to net any improvement in performance, economy, or even an advance warning of "grenading" an engine. Especially in light of the very few jet choices available to to you.

The primary purpose of an O2 sensor is to allow on-the-fly adjustments of fuel-air available only with EFI technology, which doesn't apply here.

A simple plug-check should tell you if you're too rich or too lean, and when in doubt jetting over-rich is always better (safer) then too lean.

An O2 sensor seems like frivolous overkill on the elegantly simple Buddy engine IMO.

Thinking like this can burn up a motor, read my posts in here about tuning
topic14303.html

Once you get to a certain point, it really does matter

[Kaos]

color me stupid, but what is this exercise supposed to accomplish?

It tells you the ratio of fuel to air in your cylinder so you can determine if you're lean, rich, or stoich.

I was speaking from a standpoint of practical application. Adding a high-tech O2 sensor to the ass-end of a low-tech carbureted engine doesn't seem like it's going to net any improvement in performance, economy, or even an advance warning of "grenading" an engine. Especially in light of the very few jetting choices available to to you.

The primary purpose of an O2 sensor is to allow on-the-fly adjustments of fuel-air ratios, which is available only with EFI technology, which doesn't apply here.

A simple plug-check should tell you if you're too rich or too lean, and when in doubt jetting over-rich is always better (safer) then too lean.

An O2 sensor seems like frivolous overkill on the elegantly simple Buddy engine IMO.

Ahh, I see your point there. Its not like you can adjust it on the fly, though it DOES provide some protection in that you ALWAYS know what your ratio is.

As far as jet sizes, if you know where to look you can get them in 2 digit steps between AT LEAST 80 and 140. So there's plenty of jets available.

I agree though, its likely a bit overkill to have a permanently mounted stoichometer on a small carbureted bike. Nothing wrong with overkill though

[charlie55]

Overkill, well technically, yes. But, we've all got our little fetishes; some folks like chrome, some like LED lighting, some like whitewalls, and some (me included) like gizmos, gadgets, cloaking devices, etc. Makes for interesting give and take on the forum.

Different stoichs for different folks.....

[rajron]

Harbor Freight sell drill bits 1mm < and > 1 mm. The sets are not organized and I found it complicated getting the correct sizes some are in decimal and or inch a lot of them have their own number system with adjacent decimal number; need to do math on those – ended up buying three sets to get the sizes I needed, but they were cheap - anyway there are an infinite possibility of sizes when you drill your own jets – need a very high speed drill like a Dermal, I used a RotoZip.
What I found out was a # 110 jet is = 1.10 mm etc.

[mattgordon]

Overkill, well technically, yes. But, we've all got our little fetishes; some folks like chrome, some like LED lighting, some like whitewalls, and some (me included) like gizmos, gadgets, cloaking devices, etc. Makes for interesting give and take on the forum.

Different stoichs for different folks.....

True that...I'm not without my quirks either.

I'm not looking to belabor the point, or rain on anyone's parade, I'm just contending that the A/F ratio changes constantly while the scooter is in operation, and "knowing" what that ratio is at it's best, a very small amount of information that is only meaningful for a mere fraction of a second in time.

That is why modern EFI systems monitor these things thousand of times each second. These systems can act to make changes as frequently.

In other words, once a carbureted bike is "set-up" and properly jetted, barring any modifications to intake, exhaust, or severe changes in altitude, the jetting will be "set, and forget"....which is why I asked in my initial post what the goal of this mod was expected to be, in practical day to day scoot-riding use?

I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here...conversation for conversation's sake...mental munchies....also a goal of forums such as this.

[B-rad]

I see your point, but in Alabama the weather changes every day almost. I am one of those wierdos who doesn't have a problem adjusting carbs before a ride. If my Buddy was EFI this would be a non issue.
I have never owned anything carbureted that I treated as set and forget. It's kinda like charlie55 wrote, we all have our fetishes. I would put a tach, temp gauge, and A/F meter on my scoot if it wouldn't completely use my whole storage area. It's the engineer in me. I hate not knowing.
I have ditched the tach idea, since it is an auto bike. The dipstick temp gauges that Daytona sells look really nice too. And I may even ditch the A/F meter since the OZAS-S3 is over 100 bucks!!
So while some folks add stuff like exhaust, variator upgrades, bigger jug, etc, I just want to make my bike as user friendly as possible.
Heck, I even looked at Delphi's Multec small engine EFI system that Kohler is using in their mowers. The spec sheet actually shows a GY6 with it installed Umm... that would probably be a different thread.

[Kaos]

...Heck, I even looked at Delphi's Multec small engine EFI system that Kohler is using in their mowers. The spec sheet actually shows a GY6 with it installed Umm... that would probably be a different thread.

LINKS?????

[B-rad]

How did I know that you'd be the first to ask?
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/po ... ems/small/
Good luck finding this system as a stand alone though. They are pretty much sold exclusively to Kohler at this point. At least that is what I gathered from all the links on this system. I want one!!!!

[Kaos]

How did I know that you'd be the first to ask?
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/po ... ems/small/
Good luck finding this system as a stand alone though. They are pretty much sold exclusively to Kohler at this point. At least that is what I gathered from all the links on this system. I want one!!!!

Well with some googling, it can be had. But it appears to run between 1500 and 1700 dollars. Not within MY Voodoo budget, but others have done it. Mostly on GY6 conversion Ruckuses (Ruckusi?) that they already have huge dollars into anyway.

[B-rad]

Yikes!! I was just thinking of getting a used Kohler Command pro or Aegis motor and transplanting it. I figure a trashed mower motor with the Multec would only run a couple hundred bucks. That'd cost way less than a new system direct from Kohler parts dept or Delphi

[Anachronism]

I'm not sure how effective a narrowband O2 will be.

Narrowband O2's are calibrated to only be accurate from about 14:1 to 15.5:1 ratios, because cars using them use them to minimize emissions by operating at stoich, which is 14.7:1 (the ratio where there is exactly enough gas to burn all the oxygen present, and no more).

Just about every car on the market ignores O2 readings at full throttle, because they are not accurate (Cars are calibrated to run around 12:1 at full throttle to maximize performance).

So, if you consider the case of a scooter, which is run pretty close to WOT for long periods, and has a lot more room under the emissions limits, the tuning is going to be quite a bit above the point where the sensor is accurate. Kind of hard to tune if your tuning device can't tell the difference between 13:1 and 8:1.

I run a A/F ratio gauge in my drag race car. Like I said, it is worthless for tuning. I installed it because I run nitrous in that car, and so if I see that the gauge is anything less than pegged in the green section while using the bottle, I can lift before the motor blows (hopefully). Aside from that, it doesn't really provide a lot of clarity.

[pocphil]

I only use the probe O2 meter when we're on the dyno, for permanent installs we run EGT gauges. correctly installed you get a VERY fast response picture of what's going on with your mix, and keeping in mind that Aluminum melts at °1220 you can watch for a spike on your gauge or I've even seen some guys use Westach pyrometers with built in alerts when it gets over °1150.

Most are non-powered so install is a snap. Correct set up is critical, being off by even 5mm can skew your readings.

Most westach gauges run in the under $300 range which is cheap insurance if you've got a lot of $$$ in your motor.

[iwabj]

oops

[Anachronism]

I only use the probe O2 meter when we're on the dyno, for permanent installs we run EGT gauges. correctly installed you get a VERY fast response picture of what's going on with your mix, and keeping in mind that Aluminum melts at °1220 you can watch for a spike on your gauge or I've even seen some guys use Westach pyrometers with built in alerts when it gets over °1150.

Most are non-powered so install is a snap. Correct set up is critical, being off by even 5mm can skew your readings.

Most westach gauges run in the under $300 range which is cheap insurance if you've got a lot of $$$ in your motor.

This seems like a much better idea. Not sure about what it does to exhaust flow, as the pipes the probes go in definitely aren't large...