Chinese scooters invading my town!

[jfrost2]

Saw 10 chinese bikes today, 3 schwinns, 2 rocketas, 5 tank brands. No clue who else is selling them here besides a mechanic shop (which also has a chinese scooter shop built in)

One guy took off so quick in front of a Pepsi semi-truck and was hit and run over by it. He got up like he was fine and just walked his bike on the side walk. No one wore helmets, so I'm pretty sure they're all illegal since it's required you wear a helmet within the first year of owning a motorcycle license. Then again as shady and illegal chinese bike dealers are, they probably just lied and said they didnt require a motorcycle license.

Poor souls all mislead to buying a junk bike.

[jasondavis48108]

Someone in my neighborhood just bought a generic chianese scoot. It doesn't suprise me that they are popular with the "hmm maybe I can save some money on gas" set. If thier motivation is to save short term cash then I'd imagine that these junk scooters seems like a good idea to them. This guy in my neighborhood was riding with his kid standing on it between him and the handlebars, It was kind of cute. (the speed limit in here is 15mph so not really dangerous. Now taking that scooter any faster than 15mph might pose a saftey hazard

[jmkjr72]

well you wont see many more tanks around as they are out of business now so when the ones out there die they will fade away

belive it or not last year was realy hard on the importers and a bunch of them folded up so there will be a lot less

i know out here several of the cheap crap dealers have folded or nolonger do scooters

[digital-entropy]

Oh, you're just mad you paid more than he did for your bike!

[ericalm]

well you wont see many more tanks around as they are out of business now so when the ones out there die they will fade away

Won't see many more Roketas either, as the importer has been arrested and is up on many counts of illegally importing and distributing ATVs, MCs and scoots from China.

[Lostmycage]

well you wont see many more tanks around as they are out of business now so when the ones out there die they will fade away

Won't see many more Roketas either, as the importer has been arrested and is up on many counts of illegally importing and distributing ATVs, MCs and scoots from China.

I read something about that on MV (Source from thread) the other day and it gave me a chuckle. It was one of those sad chuckles, but a chuckle just the same.

[hungcanuck]

I overheard this guy at my breakfast spot proudly announcing that he was going to buy a 50cc chinese scoot from Pep Boys for $1000. He said it came with a 1 year warranty. I actually struck up a conversation with him and tried to explain that he should do some research and go with a more reputable brand. I gave him the number for NoHo scooters. Hopefully he took my advice.

[dakotamouse]

I saw a couple of guys on scoots this weekend. One was on a Honda Metro and the other on a Chinese scoot. Neither wore helmets or knew how to use a turn signal. The guy on the Chinese scoot was dragging his feet. Sorta like Fred Flinstone when he needs to brake.

Didn't think about it till later but they were both in Army parkas. The Mod Squad in North Dakota???

[Vic]

This guy in my neighborhood was riding with his kid standing on it between him and the handlebars, It was kind of cute. (the speed limit in here is 15mph so not really dangerous. Now taking that scooter any faster than 15mph might pose a saftey hazard

Having done a face plant at about 15mph I can say that it most certainly IS a safety hazard. Asphalt does not care how fast you were going when you are skidding along on it.

Or, consider my brother in law who, last October, lowsided his dirtbike going at a speed that was described by my sister (who was walking beside him when it happened) as a "fast walking speed". He was not wearing his gear because he was "not going to be going very fast". The end of his bars hit him in just the right spot on his knee and broke the end of the tibia off. He has now had 2 surgeries and was just released to return to work last month, he is still in PT and has a rather extensive collection of hardware in his leg and a seriously impressive looking scar. Did I mention that was as fast as my sister could WALK?

-v

[TVB]

Asphalt does not care how fast you were going when you are skidding along on it.

If you were going 30mph, you'd skid (roughly) twice as far on it, compared to going 15mph. True, that makes no difference to the asphalt, but it makes a difference to whatever makes contact with the asphalt halfway through the skid.

[KCScooterDude]

I've posted about this before. I started with a Tank 150 and put 3,000 KM on it with no problems. Great bike. I paid around $1,000 and the quality was about what you'd expect for that price. The fit and finish wasn't very good, but it had a strong motor and pulled well. Once I figured scootering was for me, I moved on to a quality product.

Of course Chinese quality has improved markedly over the past five years. That's why you see some of the more dodgey brands falling away. BTW, Geely started out making scooters (maybe even bicycles), moved on to cars and today they are bidding for Volvo from Ford.

What I hear about Chinese scooters is the same thing they said about Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki and Yamaha when they came to the states in the '60s. Same thing when Honda and Toyota started importing cars to the US. Same thing with the Korean auto manufacturers. See a pattern here? Suzuki made weaving looms before starting to make motorcycles and by the 1980s were producing some of the best motorcycles around - many still run like new today: I have one in my garage.

To put it in perspective, I remember my local Genuine dealer looking at my Tank and telling another customer how crappy they were. He specifically said that the exhaust mount would fail and there is no fix for that. Which is funny, because it could be fixed for about $3.95 and a trip to the auto parts store. Never did go bad on my bike (I still see the guy I sold it to riding around on the thing). The same guy's mechanic told me when I was looking at a Stella that they were pretty good bikes if you knew your way around with a wrench and realized that I would pretty much have to kick start the thing because the starter wouldn't work.

I realize this doesn't make me popular, but you should hear this from somebody who knows what they are talking about before you go around MF'ing Chinese scoots. I think people who pay $1,000 for a 150cc scooter know what they are getting into. They don't need you to parent them. If they ride a few miles a week they probably won't have a problem and if they ride more than that they'll realize that they need to buy a ride with better quality.

[Anachronism]

I realize this doesn't make me popular, but you should hear this from somebody who knows what they are talking about before you go around MF'ing Chinese scoots. I think people who pay $1,000 for a 150cc scooter know what they are getting into. They don't need you to parent them. If they ride a few miles a week they probably won't have a problem and if they ride more than that they'll realize that they need to buy a ride with better quality.

I'm not disparaging your experience, but I think you got a bike that happened to be well put together and not necessarily the experience other people have.

Pride of Cleveland has a website on this- I give them credibility because they actually sold some China scoots.

http://www.clevelandscooters.com/id60.html

They also have youtube vids demonstrating bike failures- pretty scary with the milage the bike have.

http://www.youtube.com/user/POCscooters#p/u

I'm in agreement that the quality issue may not be much different than what many of the big names had when they first entered the market, but I think there is a lot of information indicating the quality is quite scary in a lot of cases.

I also don't think most people who buy a $1,000 scooter know what they are getting into. I think it is the opposite.

[TVB]

I think people who pay $1,000 for a 150cc scooter know what they are getting into.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm cautious and indecisive, so before I even sat on a scooter, I'd researched them enough to know which brands had good reputations, and then discovered that none of the $1000 bikes I'd seen advertised were among them. So I got it. But not every scooting newbie is as neurotic as I am.... I mean "as I was".

[Anachronism]

I think people who pay $1,000 for a 150cc scooter know what they are getting into.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm cautious and indecisive, so before I even sat on a scooter, I'd researched them enough to know which brands had good reputations, and then discovered that none of the $1000 bikes I'd seen advertised were among them. So I got it. But not every scooting newbie is as neurotic as I am.... I mean "as I was".

I'm in the same boat. At first, i was looking for the cheapest I could find. Then, after finding out about all the issues with a lot of China scoots (reliability, licensing, parts availability, etc.) I realized there was a good chanceby "saving" money up front, I could end up with a boat anchor that I could either not drive or not legally drive.

[Anachronism]

One more thing I thought of. For people that have owned a China scoot, what was the experience getting it insured? I would think there could be problems depending on how it was imported and what name it was under there.

I wonder how many people are rolling China scoots without insurance...

[Anachronism]

This is the local chinascoot dealer near me. I ride by it every day. I should stop by sometime.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 97,,0,6.93

[hungcanuck]

No doubt that not all Chinese scoots are complete and utter crap, but why risk it? If they want to be taken seriously they need to earn a reputation and as far as I can see there are too many red flags out there in internetville (bad reviews, dmv horror stories, shady business practices etc.) I would warn people about Chinese made bikes just as I would warn someone about feeding their pets Chinese made pet food.

[ericalm]

The problem is that the scoots aren't all of the problem. A big chunk of the problem is importers and dealers who are selling crap, not servicing scooters and not honoring warranties. Then there are those like the recently jailed Roketa importer who are importing scoots, MCs and ATVs illegally.

So regardless of the product, there's a chain of unscrupulous and greedy importers, distributors and dealers. This is even true for some of the higher-end Chinese scooters. Unfortunately, a lot of those looking to sell something so cheap are only interested in making the fast money and not in building a sustainable business model.

So Baron went under, Rocketa was basically under then went black market before going to jail, Tank's assets were recently auctioned off.

And those are the more identifiable, better-known makes. The dozens of others sold out of used car lots, from trucks and shops without dealer licenses are usually much lower-quality products.

It just confuses things that most of these scooters look almost exactly alike. How many Honda Joker and Vino clones are out there?

[pcbikedude]

I have a Tank 150.
The good: It still surviving being thrown around town by my wife. She has dropped it twice with minor scuffs to the side and once the whole front fender came off. Actually it looks kind of cool with out the fender.

It is also great on gas. My wife loves putting only spending $4 vs. $30.

The bad:
Major problem with rust everywhere. I've had my Kymco for 18 months longer and never had any rust.

The mirrors broke off for no reason other than metal fatigue. The stems were hollow.
The muffler bracket broke. Metal fatigue.
The center stand fell off.
The brakes squeal.
Performance sucks. Not very fast.
The biggest problem (even worse now that Tank is extinct), no one wants to work on them.

With that said, I knew what I was getting into. It was to be a training scooter for my wife. I anticipated her nearly destroying the scooter before she gets to the point of wanting another one.

Eventually it will become a rat bike. My wife has been eyeing down the Buddys down at Motorsports.

If any good that is coming out of these bad economic times, there has been a shake-out of scooter dealers. Good and bad. Around here, the China scooter dealers have been dropping out very quickly.

[KCScooterDude]

One more thing I thought of. For people that have owned a China scoot, what was the experience getting it insured? I would think there could be problems depending on how it was imported and what name it was under there.

I wonder how many people are rolling China scoots without insurance...

No problem. I didn't pay any more than I do now for my Genuine, except I now carry collision on the Blur and only carried liability on the Tank since replacement cost was so cheap.

[KCScooterDude]

I have a Tank 150.
The good: It still surviving being thrown around town by my wife. She has dropped it twice with minor scuffs to the side and once the whole front fender came off. Actually it looks kind of cool with out the fender.

It is also great on gas. My wife loves putting only spending $4 vs. $30.

The bad:
Major problem with rust everywhere. I've had my Kymco for 18 months longer and never had any rust.

The mirrors broke off for no reason other than metal fatigue. The stems were hollow.
The muffler bracket broke. Metal fatigue.
The center stand fell off.
The brakes squeal.
Performance sucks. Not very fast.
The biggest problem (even worse now that Tank is extinct), no one wants to work on them.

With that said, I knew what I was getting into. It was to be a training scooter for my wife. I anticipated her nearly destroying the scooter before she gets to the point of wanting another one.

Eventually it will become a rat bike. My wife has been eyeing down the Buddys down at Motorsports.

If any good that is coming out of these bad economic times, there has been a shake-out of scooter dealers. Good and bad. Around here, the China scooter dealers have been dropping out very quickly.

Again, I think that's pretty par for the course, and not surprising given the cost. The fit and finish on my Tank was not very good, but the motor was strong, as it should be because it's basically a 1970s Honda design.

[KCScooterDude]

I think people who pay $1,000 for a 150cc scooter know what they are getting into.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm cautious and indecisive, so before I even sat on a scooter, I'd researched them enough to know which brands had good reputations, and then discovered that none of the $1000 bikes I'd seen advertised were among them. So I got it. But not every scooting newbie is as neurotic as I am.... I mean "as I was".

I'm in the same boat. At first, i was looking for the cheapest I could find. Then, after finding out about all the issues with a lot of China scoots (reliability, licensing, parts availability, etc.) I realized there was a good chanceby "saving" money up front, I could end up with a boat anchor that I could either not drive or not legally drive.

I think that proves my point. Most people realize if the price of the product is one third of that of most other name brand products then there is going to be a quality issue. You get what you pay for. I chose to buy a cheap Chinese scooter to see if I liked it then sold it (for basically the same amount I paid new). when I realized I wanted something with better quality.

Look, my point is most people are going to buy one of these scooters (again, hopefully with dealer support) and they might ride it a few times and find scootering is not for them. They might occasionally ride, but after that it's going to end up in a garage sale one day. A select few of us (exceptional individuals that we are) will take up the sport and move on to better quality. My point of view has always been to accept Chinese scooter owners for what they are and not turn off somebody who might want to make the lifestyle change that many of us have by disparaging their decision to buy a cheap, Chinese scooter to try it out and see if they like it.

[Vic]

Asphalt does not care how fast you were going when you are skidding along on it.

If you were going 30mph, you'd skid (roughly) twice as far on it, compared to going 15mph. True, that makes no difference to the asphalt, but it makes a difference to whatever makes contact with the asphalt halfway through the skid.

My whole quote was: "Having done a face plant at about 15mph I can say that it most certainly IS a safety hazard. Asphalt does not care how fast you were going when you are skidding along on it."

This was in response to the following: "This guy in my neighborhood was riding with his kid standing on it between him and the handlebars, It was kind of cute. (the speed limit in here is 15mph so not really dangerous. Now taking that scooter any faster than 15mph might pose a saftey hazard)"

If you do a fact plant at 15mph it is still gonna do some damage and hurt a hell of a lot, that was my point. People sometimes seem to think that if you are coming off of a scooter, or "going slowly" then you don't need gear and that is just not true. Riding along at 15mph with a kid standing on the floor in front of you is most definitely not a safe thing to do at any speed.

This is also the reason that my kids and I ALWAYS wear a helmet when riding a bicycle. I owe my life to a Bell bicycle helmet when I went down by hitting a pothole about the size of my fist during a training ride. I was able to limp out of the emergency room with some seriously nasty road rash, a few sprains and a couple of stitches, the doctor assured me that I would have very likely ended up a vegetable if not for the helmet.

-v

[TVB]

I think that proves my point.

Only if you assume that everyone does careful comparison shopping. (And those are the people most likely to find there way here.) There are also people who'll see a shiny new $900 scooter, ask the salesperson a few questions about it, and if it's the right color, hand over the plastic card and ride the bike home.

[TVB]

My whole quote was:

Yeah, I read your whole statement, and I didn't argue with the part about a face-plants being bad even at fairly low speed. Valid point. What I argued with was the part that seemed to be saying that skidding injuries will be the same no matter how fast you're going, which is incorrect. The faster you are moving, the farther you will slide, or if something stops you from sliding, the harder you will hit it.

[Lostmycage]

What I argued with was the part that seemed to be saying that skidding injuries will be the same no matter how fast you're going, which is incorrect.

She never said that. She said that even low speed skids can cause bad injuries. Either way, it might be a moot point to strike up an argument about injuries with an EMT.

Actually, this thread's been skirting around arguing for argument's sake. Discussions are cool, but don't pick out arguments just out of boredom. It should be nice weather in most parts of the country by now... go for a ride!

[pcbikedude]

Again, I think that's pretty par for the course, and not surprising given the cost. The fit and finish on my Tank was not very good, but the motor was strong, as it should be because it's basically a 1970s Honda design.

I think you are essentially right about the majority of the China scooter buyers. Here in SoCal CL is littered with people trying to sell them because: 1) They want something better (usually a motorcycle) or 2) It's been sitting in the garage collecting dust with that old lamp shade from the Disco era. They usually come to CL when the registration is due.

[TVB]

What I argued with was the part that seemed to be saying that skidding injuries will be the same no matter how fast you're going, which is incorrect.

She never said that.

"Asphalt does not care how fast you were going when you are skidding along on it" sounds a lot like that. Maybe that's not what she meant by it, but that's how it sounds to me, and I'm probably not the only one. Asphalt does "care" how fast you're going when you skid on it, because it will let you off with just a little scrape if you're going slow enough, and it will rip you down to the bone if you have enough momentum from going fast enough.

Discussions are cool, but don't pick out arguments just out of boredom.

I challenge statements like this because I believe that sound, accurate information is better for convincing people to exercise proper safety precautions than scary slogans. I hear this same kind of thing over and over from people advocating the use of safety gear on bicycles and low-speed motorcycles (e.g. "it's just as bad to fall off a bicycle as to fall off a motorcycle" and equally simplistic warnings). Those vehicles do require real safety gear, so I'm 100% behind the goal. But saying that 15mph is just as harmful as 55mph backfires when repeated to someone who recognizes that it's not true, because they think it means that the whole message is unsound. I think that's reckless. So it's not just that I'm bored.

[Lostmycage]

Just a friendly and abridged reminder:

Welcome to Modern Buddy!
Keep it friendly and remember that not everyone shares your particular viewpoint, nor should anyone be ridiculed or patronized for not believing or behaving exactly as you do.

This is especially true in discussions of helmet and gear use. It's okay to share facts and personal anecdotes, but please refrain from criticizing others, preaching to them, or using rhetoric ("I wear a full face because I like my face," etc.) in the forum. This type of language does little to sway others who decide to assume the additional risks of wearing less gear.

Flaming is not allowed. While discussion, courteous disagreement and debate are fine (even encouraged), arguing and bickering is frowned upon as it contributes to a negative and hostile tone. As such, the following topics and types of content are not permitted on Modern Buddy:

• Helmet laws and whether the should/should not exist (the cause of many past flame wars)

Personal attacks are strictly prohibited. Any posts in violation will be immediately and summarily removed and the poster will be warned against further infractions. Repeat offenders will be banned from the forum at my sole discretion.

Angry rants are discouraged.

If you're unhappy with the manner in which this forum is run, however, there are other places where Genuine scooters are discussed. The Modern Buddy way is not for everyone.

HAVE FUN
Scootering is supposed to be enjoyable; that's why we're here.
Explore the site and the different types of content available.
Participate in some of the forum activities (photo scavenger hunt), meetups, group rides and rallies as well as discussions here.
Get to know your fellow scooterists.
Maximize your enjoyment of scootering.

And ride safe!

There's a difference in disagreeing and custom picking and misquoting to thread-wrangle a discussion into one which you (rightfully so) feel strongly about to argue a point that no one has disagreed with yet. Doesn't that seem just a little fickle?

As far as asphalt... it's a pretty heartless mofo. It doesn't care about anything. What it will do, by design, is grip whatever surface is in contact with it. If it's tires, then everything is golden. If it's faces, it doesn't matter if it's 15 or 55 mph... the face will loose every time. Every time. The only part where speed enters into that equation is how much of the face will still be on the skull. If the point of the safety gear is to keep the skin intact in case of an abrasion, then no, speed is absolutely not relevant and it is an always or nothing decision. You can't teach people common sense. If you want to discuss the different speeds at which helmets should be used, please start another thread with clear markings in the title and the full expectation that it'll get locked and buried because helmet discussions never end well (hence the whole "Guideline" thing from above).

So, let's put the hi-jack down and get back to... what was it [scrolls up] oh right; Chinese scooters. There's a subject that always flows smoothly.

[TVB]

There's a difference in disagreeing and custom picking and misquoting to thread-wrangle a discussion

Can we try to leave the personal attacks out of this? I find this accusation insulting, so I'm going to ignore it.

into one which you (rightfully so) feel strongly about to argue a point that no one has disagreed with yet.

If no one's disagreeing with it, why do I find myself having to defend it?

As far as asphalt... it's a pretty heartless mofo. It doesn't care about anything. What it will do, by design, is grip whatever surface is in contact with it. If it's tires, then everything is golden. If it's faces, it doesn't matter if it's 15 or 55 mph... the face will loose every time. Every time. The only part where speed enters into that equation is how much of the face will still be on the skull.

Exactly. I think that's an important distinction, and I'm pretty sure most people would agree.

If the point of the safety gear is to keep the skin intact in case of an abrasion, then no, speed is absolutely not relevant and it is an always or nothing decision.

A leather jacket is better protection than a nylon windbreaker because it takes a certain amount of wear before the asphalt gets through it. Skid fast/far enough, and it will go through, otherwise it won't. Body armor works on the same principle: its fundamental design goal is to gradually sacrifice itself as you skid (slowing you down while still protecting you), and it only lasts so far. This is not an all-or-nothing question; the distance you skid matters a great deal.

If you want to discuss the different speeds at which helmets should be used,

Another incorrect assumption. All I wanted to do was to correct an apparent misstatement of fact about a topic that someone else had already brought up.

[Lostmycage]

Well, you proved my point beautifully and earned a lock! Honestly, that's not how I saw this thread going down. Neat twist!

You find yourself defending your position because the person you misquoted took offense to it. That's pretty cut and dry.

Now, please stop being so damned argumentative! That doesn't just go for this thread, since it's now locked and all, but in general.