Buddy 170!

[ericalm]

Forgot to ask: does this mean that Genuine has abandoned the "touring scooter" they were working on?

Nope. We've known for a couple years that Buddys were eventually moving to injection, so I don't think this has any bearing on the cruiser.

I think this is a good sign overall. Genuine is not laying down. Last year was rough for scooter companies and dealers, but there's little to gain by treading water or stagnating. There are still a lot of problems to deal with (we know what many of those are) but it hasn't ground everything to a halt.

The Buddy 170i will be even more competitive with the injected Vespa LX 150s and the Honda SH150 and should spank the comparable Kymcos and others. Don't know about pricing for these yet, but I'm guessing it will be under the $4500 tag on those bikes.

[GrittyTacoman]

Liking the new scoots!

Wonder if they would come standard with the bells and whistles of the blackjack, like the better shocks?

[ericalm]

Doesn't look like it from the photos, but these aren't final production versions. It's possible these are the introductory models and a year or two from now a performance version will be introduced.

[sunshinen]

I was convinced I'd ride the mothership into the ground, but a trade in might not be a bad idea.

+

[ScootShannon]

Wow. I need to start doing some overtime.

[orino]

Actually, the fuel injection will probably make a bigger difference than the added displacement. The Vespa GTS (246cc, EFI) makes one horsepower more than the Granturismo 200, but about five ft-lbs more torque. You'll notice a big difference accelerating from a standstill, but probably not a big increase in top speed, maybe 1-2 mph. But much better gas mileage, and it'll start on the first hit, every time.

And while fuel injection these days is pretty much all electronic, it used to be mechanical. What fuel injection does is squirt the fuel into the throttle body, instead of depending on the vacuum created by the piston's intake stroke to suck the fuel/air mixture down through a carburetor.

__Orin
Scootin' Old Skool

[BuddyLicious]

So how does the engine get it's 170cc,I mean is it a kit added to a 150cc or is the 170cc engine a new production engine? If it's an add on kit to the 150 engines,does the Dealers add it? I imagine there are differences between a production 170cc and a 150cc engine with 20cc added huh?

[Kaos]

So how does the engine get it's 170cc,I mean is it a kit added to a 150cc or is the 170cc engine a new production engine? If it's an add on kit to the 150 engines,does the Dealers add it? I imagine there are differences between a production 170cc and a 150cc engine with 20cc added huh?

More than likely its neither In the same way the 125 and 150 are the SAME engine, but assembled with different pistons,cylinders, and cranks at the factory this will likely be exactly the same.

They'll just stick a larger bore cylinder and piston on the engine, and it'll come out at 170cc instead of 150.

[chloefpuff]

SO HOW FAST WILL IT GO????

[Witch]

That brown one would look lovely next to my ivory GTV. If I had the extra cash, it would be a nice little around-town scoot. Living up here at altitude, I'd be much more likely to buy another fuel-injected scoot than a carbed one. I bet they'll sell a lot of the new FI models here around Colorado once they really hit the dealers.

[michelle_7728]

No tangerine?

I do have some orange paint I bought to paint the MP3 with...maybe there'll be some left over.

I wonder what kind of mpg they'll get...

[killbilly]

Interesting.

I'm wondering where the motors are coming from. The FI on the Blur (once you get the....ahem....wiring harness sorted out) has been excellent. I'm not sure if it's got a fast-idle circuit or not for warm-up, but it's the mark of a significantly more sophisticated and ultimately reliable motor.

For those of you worried about FI, look at it like this: you get a 2-year warranty on your Buddy, and servicing an FI bike is actually easier for the dealer. There's no adjusting - if something's wrong, you just replace the major component which is malfunctioning and/or reset/reflash the ECU.

It's going to mean reduced cost for the dealer to service it, theoretically.

This is a good thing.

As for mileage, I'm guessing it'll get around 80-85 mpg, and it will probably get to 60mph or so.

[sunshinen]

No tangerine?
...
I wonder what kind of mpg they'll get...

I also agree with this sentiment. I loved the "eco-Buddy" idea that was around the same time as the Blackjack's intro to the lineup, both mpg and the brighter green color.

I like bright colors on a scooter. Makes me feel fun and sprightly. =)

[pugbuddy]

and it will probably get to 60mph or so

60mph? That's all? If this thing won't do 75mph (real speed) then I won't be buying one. I can do 60-65 on my current 125cc stock!

[Kaos]

Interesting.

I'm wondering where the motors are coming from. The FI on the Blur (once you get the....ahem....wiring harness sorted out) has been excellent. I'm not sure if it's got a fast-idle circuit or not for warm-up, but it's the mark of a significantly more sophisticated and ultimately reliable motor.

For those of you worried about FI, look at it like this: you get a 2-year warranty on your Buddy, and servicing an FI bike is actually easier for the dealer. There's no adjusting - if something's wrong, you just replace the major component which is malfunctioning and/or reset/reflash the ECU.

It's going to mean reduced cost for the dealer to service it, theoretically.

This is a good thing.

As for mileage, I'm guessing it'll get around 80-85 mpg, and it will probably get to 60mph or so.

They're coming from the current batch of PGO Bubu's. they've been injected across the whole line for over a year due to new Taiwanese laws.

[BuddyLicious]

Kaos(or others)

What's your thoughts on the choice for 170cc rather than say 180,190 etc? I guess what I'm asking is, if PGO changed the current Buddy engine with a larger piston,cylinder and crank is 170cc about the highest one can go without compromising reliability,longevity etc? Is 20cc going to be noticeable to current Buddy owners contemplating upgrading? Finally anyone of the opinion that either the 125 or 150cc Buddy's will be phased out?

[Kaos]

Kaos(or others)

What's your thoughts on the choice for 170cc rather than say 180,190 etc? I guess what I'm asking is, if PGO changed the current Buddy engine with a larger piston,cylinder and crank is 170cc about the highest one can go without compromising reliability,longevity etc? Is 20cc going to be noticeable to current Buddy owners contemplating upgrading? Finally anyone of the opinion that either the 125 or 150cc Buddy's will be phased out?

From the builds I've done on GY6's, they start to become hard to keep cool beyond 170cc. The cylinder walls are getting pretty thin at that point. Though I HAVE seen them bored as large as 230cc, I heard that one only lasted a couple of days.

Having ridden a kitted 170 bike, its noticeably faster than a 150. I think with FI especially, it'll be a good upgrade.

I know with the ORIGINAL announcement about 1.5 years back, there was talk of dropping the 150's, since they're not a ton faster than the 125's. I don't however know if that's still on the table.

[BuddyLicious]

Kaos(or others)

What's your thoughts on the choice for 170cc rather than say 180,190 etc? I guess what I'm asking is, if PGO changed the current Buddy engine with a larger piston,cylinder and crank is 170cc about the highest one can go without compromising reliability,longevity etc? Is 20cc going to be noticeable to current Buddy owners contemplating upgrading? Finally anyone of the opinion that either the 125 or 150cc Buddy's will be phased out?

From the builds I've done on GY6's, they start to become hard to keep cool beyond 170cc. The cylinder walls are getting pretty thin at that point. Though I HAVE seen them bored as large as 230cc, I heard that one only lasted a couple of days.

Having ridden a kitted 170 bike, its noticeably faster than a 150. I think with FI especially, it'll be a good upgrade.

I know with the ORIGINAL announcement about 1.5 years back, there was talk of dropping the 150's, since they're not a ton faster than the 125's. I don't however know if that's still on the table.

Thanks Kaos! See you board members,you can learn a lot about this stuff when a dummy ask questions.

[pdxrita]

and it will probably get to 60mph or so

60mph? That's all? If this thing won't do 75mph (real speed) then I won't be buying one. I can do 60-65 on my current 125cc stock!

Yeah, I think that estimate is wildly out of whack. I can easily top 60 - 65mph on my 150; it would probably do 70, but I've never tried. My wild guess (and it is only a guess) is that you might get 80 MPH out of the 170cc.

[killbilly]

and it will probably get to 60mph or so

60mph? That's all? If this thing won't do 75mph (real speed) then I won't be buying one. I can do 60-65 on my current 125cc stock!

Yeah, I think that estimate is wildly out of whack. I can easily top 60 - 65mph on my 150; it would probably do 70, but I've never tried. My wild guess (and it is only a guess) is that you might get 80 MPH out of the 170cc.

Maybe I'm wrong, then. Wouldn't be the first time.

I was extrapolating based somewhat on the Blur threads where people were reporting low-to-mid 80s on their 220s. As the thread suggested, though, there are lots of factors that influence the top speed - rider weight, conditions, etc....

Top end is nice, but to me, what makes a scooter useful is quickness. I'd rather have lickety-split 0-40 time with a flat torque curve than a high top end. Using throttle to squirt yourself into a safer position is a benefit that cars do not have.

[sosha]

Damn you, Jeff.

Just when the Blackjack came back to me PERFECT!

[Kaos]

60mph? That's all? If this thing won't do 75mph (real speed) then I won't be buying one. I can do 60-65 on my current 125cc stock!

Yeah, I think that estimate is wildly out of whack. I can easily top 60 - 65mph on my 150; it would probably do 70, but I've never tried. My wild guess (and it is only a guess) is that you might get 80 MPH out of the 170cc.

Maybe I'm wrong, then. Wouldn't be the first time.

I was extrapolating based somewhat on the Blur threads where people were reporting low-to-mid 80s on their 220s. As the thread suggested, though, there are lots of factors that influence the top speed - rider weight, conditions, etc....

Top end is nice, but to me, what makes a scooter useful is quickness. I'd rather have lickety-split 0-40 time with a flat torque curve than a high top end. Using throttle to squirt yourself into a safer position is a benefit that cars do not have.

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

[Skootz Kabootz]

Yeah, I think that estimate is wildly out of whack. I can easily top 60 - 65mph on my 150; it would probably do 70, but I've never tried. My wild guess (and it is only a guess) is that you might get 80 MPH out of the 170cc.

Maybe I'm wrong, then. Wouldn't be the first time.

I was extrapolating based somewhat on the Blur threads where people were reporting low-to-mid 80s on their 220s. As the thread suggested, though, there are lots of factors that influence the top speed - rider weight, conditions, etc....

Top end is nice, but to me, what makes a scooter useful is quickness. I'd rather have lickety-split 0-40 time with a flat torque curve than a high top end. Using throttle to squirt yourself into a safer position is a benefit that cars do not have.

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

I've been GPS'd at 75mph on my stock Buddy 150 so I would expect a 170cc to get up to 85mph at least.

[Kaos]

Maybe I'm wrong, then. Wouldn't be the first time.

I was extrapolating based somewhat on the Blur threads where people were reporting low-to-mid 80s on their 220s. As the thread suggested, though, there are lots of factors that influence the top speed - rider weight, conditions, etc....

Top end is nice, but to me, what makes a scooter useful is quickness. I'd rather have lickety-split 0-40 time with a flat torque curve than a high top end. Using throttle to squirt yourself into a safer position is a benefit that cars do not have.

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

I've been GPS'd at 75mph on my stock Buddy 150 so I would expect a 170cc to get up to 85mph at least.

Yeah, but can you ALWAYS hit it, or just sometimes? I think that while its likely the 170 will do better than 75, it won't ALWAYS do better than 75.

Just like the 125's can hit 70 but can't consistently do it, so they're rated at 65mph.

[killbilly]

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

I've been GPS'd at 75mph on my stock Buddy 150 so I would expect a 170cc to get up to 85mph at least.

Yeah, but can you ALWAYS hit it, or just sometimes? I think that while its likely the 170 will do better than 75, it won't ALWAYS do better than 75.

Just like the 125's can hit 70 but can't consistently do it, so they're rated at 65mph.

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking, I guess. I've not tried to flat-out my Blur - don't have enough miles on it yet for the motor to really open up. I suspect once it loosens up more (I'm told that it will around 1K mi) it should be able to consistently do 80-85.

[C2]

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

Really?!?! I've got 3600+ miles on my stock 125 and have never been able to get past "65" on the speedo... so about 60 IRL. Granted, I'm a 6'2" 260lbs dude, but I've never seen the right conditions (unless it's downhill) that would let me get to 70.

C2

[jrsjr]

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

Really?!?! I've got 3600+ miles on my stock 125 and have never been able to get past "65" on the speedo... so about 60 IRL. Granted, I'm a 6'2" 260lbs dude, but I've never seen the right conditions (unless it's downhill) that would let me get to 70.

Agreed! Time for a reality check.

CAVEAT: Just in case there are noobies reading this thread, please be advised that there are some amazing top speed claims being made. So amazing, in fact, that they should be published in the Journal of Irreproducible Results. In the real world, here are the real top speeds of these stock scooters without the benefit of gale-force tailwinds, 45% downhill grades, hallucinogenic drugs, or hilariously wrong GPS results -

Honda Silverwing 582cc - 94.5 mph
Vespa GT200L 198cc - 74.5 mph
Genuine Buddy 125cc - 61.5 mph

By way of comparison, crosscheck the above numbers to the actual results of the recent Motor-Scooter Land-Speed Federation event.

[Skootz Kabootz]

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

I've been GPS'd at 75mph on my stock Buddy 150 so I would expect a 170cc to get up to 85mph at least.

Yeah, but can you ALWAYS hit it, or just sometimes? I think that while its likely the 170 will do better than 75, it won't ALWAYS do better than 75.

Just like the 125's can hit 70 but can't consistently do it, so they're rated at 65mph.

It was done off and on over 2 days riding back to LA from San Fran when on level ground. I did slow dramatically when going up hills. That part sucked. Going that fast is certainly not an everyday thing, but I did ride with the speedo buried or close to it the whole way back from SF. I was really amazed with what the scooter could do. Honestly though, I think at that speed the Buddy reaches its practical limit. It is too light and the wheels are too small to ride at those speeds on a regular basis. I would think the 170 will be about as fast as is realistic for this scooter design.

[Kaos]

Yeah, I think thats likely wrong. Stock 125's can hit 70 in the right conditions. My (albeit wildly modified) 161 could do almost 90. I'd think it'll likely do 75 easily with some ability above that.

Really?!?! I've got 3600+ miles on my stock 125 and have never been able to get past "65" on the speedo... so about 60 IRL. Granted, I'm a 6'2" 260lbs dude, but I've never seen the right conditions (unless it's downhill) that would let me get to 70.

C2

My buddy's stock 125 hit 70 following me on my Buddy on a flat. Its possible that he was slightly drafting me too. He's short and light though which makes a big difference.

[rajron]

edit:

Sorry I’m starting a new thread – this is supposed to be about the great new Buddy.

[Kaos]

High speed is not that easy to obtain especially with a small motor/horsepower; see this link: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html and plug in some numbers into the formula at the bottom of the page and see for yourself the main factors needed for speed – remember the Buddy, stock, has a very low horsepower rating because of its small engine. Our drag coefficient will not be very good either because how the rider is so exposed.
See what it takes to get high speeds…

Thats an interesting calculator. It really doesn't seem to take THAT much.

The Buddy 125 is rated at 11HP if I remember right, using your calculator,
guessing a bit at the drag coefficient, and using one of their higher motorcycle examples of .603, A front sq ft area of 4ft (again a bit of a guess), a 200lb rider, and my personal top speed of 88mph, and it spits out that you only need 14HP to reach that speed. Thats absolutely reasonable(And probably fairly accurate).

[rajron]

Sorry I move my post to a new subject, didn't want to hijack

[ericalm]

By way of comparison, crosscheck the above numbers to the actual results of the recent Motor-Scooter Land-Speed Federation event.

Probably not the best basis for comparison. Results were probably slower than many of those scoots are capable of running. The track was inclined, short (half mile) with little stopping distance after the end, uneven with potholes, and so on. Simple accessories were not permitted; they were deigned to be a type of fairing.

My top speeds could never be reproduced at a Land Speed type event. They're usually after miles of travel, benefitting from slipstrream, maybe on a slight downhill grade. I get really good speeds on certain types of pavement, too.

[jrsjr]

By way of comparison, crosscheck the above numbers to the actual results of the recent Motor-Scooter Land-Speed Federation event.

Probably not the best basis for comparison.

Maybe not, but it is interesting how close they are, isn't it? Anyway, as I said in my post, my point was to to advise the unwary (especially noobies) that they should be highly skeptical of the numbers being kicked around in this thread.

[pugbuddy]

Well, I've been clocked holding 62mph (real, not Buddy) going up hills while I was on the highway. I've never tested exactly how fast I can go but my speedo has hit 75 bmph on flat roads.

What I'd like is to be able to travel in the 65mph range and still have enough left to speed up if necessary. While it's usually not necessary in town, I want to be able to do it on the highway as needed.

[Bcon]

Has anyone seen confirmation of the displacement of the new model? It's not unusual for companies to designate a new model with a number that isn't linked to the actual displacement (think Kymco Like 200i - which is 160cc, or a BMW F650GS twin - which is 800cc).

It would be a bit of a disappointment if the new Buddy is a fuel injected version of the current 150 engine, but is designated as a 170 to differentiate it from the outgoing model.

[Kaos]

Has anyone seen confirmation of the displacement of the new model? It's not unusual for companies to designate a new model with a number that isn't linked to the actual displacement (think Kymco Like 200i - which is 160cc, or a BMW F650GS twin - which is 800cc).

It would be a bit of a disappointment if the new Buddy is a fuel injected version of the current 150 engine, but is designated as a 170 to differentiate it from the outgoing model.

The announcements I've seen said it was 170cc. Not a 'Buddy 170'.

[Bcon]

Has anyone seen confirmation of the displacement of the new model? It's not unusual for companies to designate a new model with a number that isn't linked to the actual displacement (think Kymco Like 200i - which is 160cc, or a BMW F650GS twin - which is 800cc).

It would be a bit of a disappointment if the new Buddy is a fuel injected version of the current 150 engine, but is designated as a 170 to differentiate it from the outgoing model.

The announcements I've seen said it was 170cc. Not a 'Buddy 170'.

Dang it. Now I have to save up for one. Someone give me a reason not to buy one of these in the spring. Someone tell me a modded 2008 red Buddy 125 is just as good. Someone, please, help me............

[Lovelandstella]

The announcements I've seen said it was 170cc. Not a 'Buddy 170'.

Dang it. Now I have to save up for one. Someone give me a reason not to buy one of these in the spring. Someone tell me a modded 2008 red Buddy 125 is just as good. Someone, please, help me............

...[crickets]...

oh, shoot! Actually I Have something, but I don't mean it in a 'mean' way - just stating a fact.

A "modded 2008 red Buddy 125" is probably already in your garage
and a "buddy 170cc" is not yet on dealer floors.

To my friends that pulled their deposit on the 2010 stella- that's a big difference.

Once again- I am not starting a fight- but it is a "fact", and you asked for a "reason"- and that's a big one
You can ride yours now. (if it's not too cold) You cannot ride the 170cc now.
That's all I will say about it.

[Bcon]

The announcements I've seen said it was 170cc. Not a 'Buddy 170'.

Dang it. Now I have to save up for one. Someone give me a reason not to buy one of these in the spring. Someone tell me a modded 2008 red Buddy 125 is just as good. Someone, please, help me............

...[crickets]...

oh, shoot! Actually I Have something, but I don't mean it in a 'mean' way - just stating a fact.

A "modded 2008 red Buddy 125" is probably already in your garage
and a "buddy 170cc" is not yet on dealer floors.

To my friends that pulled their deposit on the 2010 stella- that's a big difference.

Once again- I am not starting a fight- but it is a "fact", and you asked for a "reason"- and that's a big one
You can ride yours now. (if it's not too cold) You cannot ride the 170cc now.
That's all I will say about it.

Yes, the modded Buddy 125 is in the garage all snuggled down for a long winter nap. He won't be out until spring. I can't bring myself to take the two wheelers out in the salt and grit anymore. It tears them up.

I'm not the type to put a deposit on anything, so no chance of me being 4t Stella'd, but if a 170 injected Buddy had been available last fall when I bought the 125, I would have coughed up the extra cash. Plus, the 170 paint schemes look great.

I don't _really_ expect anyone on a scooter list to talk me out of buying a scooter.

[Vic]

My kitted Buddy 125 is sitting in my friend's garage, just as it was finished and ready to be re-jetted the cold weather hit so I decided to wait until spring for that process.

My mechanic did take it out and said that the little thing is super-fast even though it has less than 10 miles into being broken in and needs the jets checked out (he said it is not too bad, there is a backfire on deceleration, but other than that it is pretty close). Once it is all tuned up and ready to go, and then once it is broken in... LOOK OUT!

My friend that is storing it for me took it down the street and back and told me that it is speedy enough that if you roll on the throttle from a standstill hard enough you will lift the front end up.

I am *really* looking forward to getting my little Buddy back and zipping around with it!

I suspect that this 170 Buddy is going to take the fun of having a Buddy right on up into the stratosphere.

I also wonder if maybe the 125s will come down a bit in price, I am going to be looking to get my son a scooter, and I am less inclined to giving him my Buddy...

-v

[Lostmycage]

Dang it. Now I have to save up for one. Someone give me a reason not to buy one of these in the spring. Someone tell me a modded 2008 red Buddy 125 is just as good. Someone, please, help me............

Perhaps not just as good, but the real question is this: Is it worth the cost of a brand new bike for a relatively minor (as opposed to a larger displacement bike class) performance increase?

I'd say it'll be pretty close depending on what you've done to yours.

[Kaos]

Dang it. Now I have to save up for one. Someone give me a reason not to buy one of these in the spring. Someone tell me a modded 2008 red Buddy 125 is just as good. Someone, please, help me............

Perhaps not just as good, but the real question is this: Is it worth the cost of a brand new bike for a relatively minor (as opposed to a larger displacement bike class) performance increase?

I'd say it'll be pretty close depending on what you've done to yours.

And with transmission mods, and other things that are commonly done to kitted bikes, don't be surprised that the 170 offers little to no performance gains over a well kitted bike.

[ericalm]

Dang it. Now I have to save up for one. Someone give me a reason not to buy one of these in the spring. Someone tell me a modded 2008 red Buddy 125 is just as good. Someone, please, help me............

Perhaps not just as good, but the real question is this: Is it worth the cost of a brand new bike for a relatively minor (as opposed to a larger displacement bike class) performance increase?

I'd say it'll be pretty close depending on what you've done to yours.

And with transmission mods, and other things that are commonly done to kitted bikes, don't be surprised that the 170 offers little to no performance gains over a well kitted bike.

Yeah, but that's comparing a fully modded bike to a stock one. You could apply those same transmission mods to the 170. There may be a kit eventually, etc. One you've maxxed out on mods on the 125, you've hit the ceiling. The 170 starts from that point.

Of course, by that time, you would have spent much more than modding out a 125, especially if you traded a 125 in for the 170.

[Kaos]

Perhaps not just as good, but the real question is this: Is it worth the cost of a brand new bike for a relatively minor (as opposed to a larger displacement bike class) performance increase?

I'd say it'll be pretty close depending on what you've done to yours.

And with transmission mods, and other things that are commonly done to kitted bikes, don't be surprised that the 170 offers little to no performance gains over a well kitted bike.

Yeah, but that's comparing a fully modded bike to a stock one. You could apply those same transmission mods to the 170. There may be a kit eventually, etc. One you've maxxed out on mods on the 125, you've hit the ceiling. The 170 starts from that point.

Of course, by that time, you would have spent much more than modding out a 125, especially if you traded a 125 in for the 170.

Sure, absolutely, but its probably not worth trading a kitted 125 in on a 170, since its not going to likely be a big improvement out the door.

[Dooglas]

Sure, absolutely, but its probably not worth trading a kitted 125 in on a 170, since its not going to likely be a big improvement out the door.

I personally find fuel injected scoots to be a significant step up but I'll readily admit that all depends on your expectations and how you use the scoot. Probably the bigger catch is that kitted scoots are not particularly good trade-ins period. They are usually worth significantly more to you as a second scoot than they are to a dealer as a credit toward another purchase.

[Bcon]

Yeah, on the value side it very seldom makes sense to trade up on any depreciating asset (scoots, cars, etc.). I'm sure I'll keep my current Buddy, I've become too attached to it after all the work I've done.

Next question for total speculation - Which engine design do you think the 170 will be built on:

1. 125 long stroke crank
2. 150 standard stroke crank
3. Something new

[Lostmycage]

Yeah, but that's comparing a fully modded bike to a stock one. You could apply those same transmission mods to the 170. There may be a kit eventually, etc. One you've maxxed out on mods on the 125, you've hit the ceiling. The 170 starts from that point.

Of course, by that time, you would have spent much more than modding out a 125, especially if you traded a 125 in for the 170.

My point was more along the lines of it being worth it or not.

As to the engine design, hopefully it'll be something new, otherwise, there really won't be any room for improvement. If they do a water-cooled 170cc, then it might be worth trading in a Buddy 125. If SYM's US distribution hadn't gotten burned there'd be a comparable model since it's 171cc liquid-cooled HD200 was supposed to get Fuel Injection this year.

[ericalm]

I get it. "Worth it" is just something I have trouble wading into. A guy on Modern Vespa asked if it was worth it to trade in a less than one year old Fly 150 for a used ET4. I thought it was nuts but whatever makes people happy! I've seen some ridiculous trade ins at dealers that probably cost the customers thousands of dollars. Worth it? Not for me!

If SYM's US distribution hadn't gotten burned there'd be a comparable model since it's 171cc liquid-cooled HD200 was supposed to get Fuel Injection this year.

Speaking of which, I've heard that SYM's new US distributor is Lance.

[Lostmycage]

I get it. "Worth it" is just something I have trouble wading into. A guy on Modern Vespa asked if it was worth it to trade in a less than one year old Fly 150 for a used ET4. I thought it was nuts but whatever makes people happy! I've seen some ridiculous trade ins at dealers that probably cost the customers thousands of dollars. Worth it? Not for me!

I completely agree. "Worth" is all up to the person.

If SYM's US distribution hadn't gotten burned there'd be a comparable model since it's 171cc liquid-cooled HD200 was supposed to get Fuel Injection this year.

Speaking of which, I've heard that SYM's new US distributor is Lance.

Oh, that bodes well... I wonder they went from importing Fiddle II knock-offs to being licenses to sell the real things?

Genuine probably has a non-compete contract with PGO, otherwise it'd make a lot of sense to pick up SYM as well, at least part of their line like the HD, RV and Citycom. SYM probably doesn't like being re-branded though... or does it? Crazy talk, right?