Clutch Question

mikalius · Post by **mikalius** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:50 pm

Does anyone know at what RPM the Buddy's clutch engages? I am looking to buy some new springs and play around with the clutch a bit and need to know what kind are on there now. I found some springs in 1000 rpm, 1500 rpm and 2000 rpm that will fit the Buddy.

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:59 pm

From the manual
Engagement RPM: 3800 +/- 300 rpm
Lock-Up RPM: 5100 +/- 400 rpm

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:22 pm

Before you mess with the clutch springs, you may want to go with an easier and more common mod to achieve a similar result: swapping your roller weights. Lighter weights will allow the engine to rev higher in low gears before engaging. Heavier will do the same for higher gears. Requires some experimentation; a lot of people with more experience than I have in this mix their weights to get an optimal total weight they're happy with.

ThisDude · Post by **ThisDude** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:47 am

Yeah just use lighter roller weights, I can already tell that the clutch engagement point is pretty much spot on, no bogging. One problem with going with higher stall clutches is that with our cvt transmissions, the clutch is after the transmission. In a car it is before the transmission, big difference there. With heavy weights still in it it will bog just as easily because with the higher stall the rollers will just push the drive plate out and you'll just be at the same slow ratio as before except your clutch will wear out much faster and the engine won't engage at any significantly higher rpm. Definitely go with lighter weights.

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:44 am

ericalm wrote: Lighter weights will allow the engine to rev higher in low gears before engaging. Heavier will do the same for higher gears.

gears?

ThisDude · Post by **ThisDude** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:00 am

Should say gear ratios, even though we have no gears we still have "gearing"

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:10 am

ThisDude wrote:Should say gear ratios, even though we have no gears we still have "gearing"

Yeah... figurative "gears."

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:15 pm

i love it whenever someone posts something in this area, because it always simmers my understanding of the cvt a little....

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:26 pm

lou76 wrote:i love it whenever someone posts something in this area, because it always simmers my understanding of the cvt a little....

A good start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous ... ansmission

(Not that I understand all of it.)

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:38 am

yeah, i went there while reading this thread last night... and my brain still kind of hurts....

2 points that my hurting brain needs clarified:
1- true or false: (basically) lighter roller weights force the halves of the front pulley together more quickly, but due to their lesser weight, do not push the two halves quite as FAR together, while heavier weights, while taking longer to get there, will push the two halves a little further together (ignoring, for the time being, the issue of optimal engine rpms to keep the scooter from "bogging" in the process)

2-so am i understanding correctly that "our clutch is after the transmission" means that the belt is moving prior to the clutch engaging? that the entire assembly is in motion prior to transfer of power to the rear wheel?

its a good brain hurt, really....

ThisDude · Post by **ThisDude** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:51 pm

1. You have it backwards lighter roller weights force the front pulley halves slower, and heavier ones faster. The way it works is that lighter weights keep your engine at higher rpms while you accelerate which transfers more power to the ground in two ways first you're at higher rpms where small engines like ours generate more power. But it applies only to an extent, once you go over a certain rpm the engine won't be producing any more power. The second way is that you are in a lower gear ratio which multiplies torque to the ground more. The problem with going too light on the weights is that you'll be at screaming high rpms and could overrev the engine past redline and at top speed your roller weights won't be heavy enough to close the pulley halves and you'll lose out on the extra gearing ratio on the top end so you'll have a slower top speed. The Buddy's transmission is pretty well tunes because you run out of variator range just about when you reach the scooters top speed, I think we run out of range just at an indicated 60, which meanse the engine is transferring maximum power to the ground without suffering from losing out on top speed. If you go any heavier it won't give you any more top speed, it'll just put you in high "gear" earlier, then as you build speed the engine rpm will rise along with your speed because your variator has run out of range and you're at a fixed ratio. So for our application heavier weights do nothing to improve top speed, they will however improve gas mileage as long as you don't mind taking a hit on acceleration. Hope this clears things up a little bit

2. You are absolutely right about the clutch, the whole thing is spinning before pwer is transferred to the ground, if you wanna see this in real life. Go take the variator cover off yours, when I did a big pool of oil came out so it's in the dealer now to be fixed, and then start your scooter. You'll see the whole assembly move at idle and when you rev it up you'll see the front pulleys squish together and the belt ride up while simultaneously the back pulley spread apart and the belt ride down.

It is both amazingly simple and profoundingly complex at the same time, and if you think this is complex if you ever take apart a cars automatic transmission it will haunt you for the rest of your life. Planetary gears with multiple engagement points to change gears. And I believe hamsters on wheels to multiply power are in the torque convertor or something like that. I you thought cvt's made your head hurt, look up torque convertors and automatic transmissions and that'll make your head explode trying to understand that.

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:11 am

ThisDude wrote:I you thought cvt's made your head hurt, look up torque convertors and automatic transmissions and that'll make your head explode trying to understand that.

i won't do it... :]

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:12 am

.... and thank you for the info....

ThisDude · Post by **ThisDude** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:10 am

hey lou I see you've got an '88 elite. I've got an red '86, it's a big pile o'crap, but I'll have to ride it to go to pee wee's big adventure screening that the noho guys are going to since my itaia's in the shop. Why oh why do crankcase seals have to be on back order

I don't think the 80's technology will ever be cool again, were they even cool in the 80's?

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:52 pm

ThisDude wrote:were they even cool in the 80's?

Oh, hell yeah. They had Lou Reed, Devo, Adam Ant and Grace Jones doing TV commercials for them. And Sarah Conner rode a Honda in the first Terminator movie.

One of my all-time faves, Adam and Grace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQP374lBVnM

The Lou Reed commercial was actually a great piece of filmmaking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkXxFCu7kPI

jetboy · Post by **jetboy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:20 pm

ericalm wrote: Oh, hell yeah. They had Lou Reed, Devo, Adam Ant and Grace Jones doing TV commercials for them. And Sarah Conner rode a Honda in the first Terminator movie.

I'll go out on a potentially blaphemous limb here and say that the Honda Elite is the most iconic scooter design since the glory days of vespa and lambretta.

Sorry to propagate the hijacking of this thread, but I dig it. I'd like a 150.

-jetboy

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:43 am

ThisDude wrote:hey lou I see you've got an '88 elite. I've got an red '86, it's a big pile o'crap, but I'll have to ride it to go to pee wee's big adventure screening that the noho guys are going to since my itaia's in the shop. Why oh why do crankcase seals have to be on back order I don't think the 80's technology will ever be cool again, were they even cool in the 80's?

the 88 is currently resting... when i got it it had been sitting for a while, and i have yet to figure out the issue... ruled alot of things out, like the elctric bystarter, clogged jets, bad gas, etc, etc.... someday it will live...
at the scarabs' skull valley rally this year we met a 200 year-old woman riding a CHERRY elite 250... gold crash bars, rear rack, windscreen.... it was an 86 or something (do you remember, keys?), and it had like 6K on it, and wash shiny and gave me a little tron-boner.... i almost married her on the spot just to inherit it....

louie · Post by **louie** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:42 pm

I know a couple of 80 something elites that get lots of action. one won the twist and go award at the mud and blood rally.