Squirly ride?

fulmitz · Post by **fulmitz** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:09 am

I noticed that when I get over 45mph my stella gets a little squirly. Anyone else notice this? Would changing the shocks to SIP or BiTurbo help? Thanks,

Rob

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:20 am

Have you checked your tyre pressures?

Recommended is 17/27

Mine settled down once I put them there from the dealership's 30/30.

Also, the stock whitewalls are crap tyres. I immediately replaced mine w/ Micheline S83

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:04 pm

I agree with the tire pressure check. That could easily be the source of instability and the pressures can drop fairly quick as opposed to tires on your car. I check every week just to be safe. The Stella suspension is a modified single fork aircraft suspension. It looks so cool and in part of the charm of the vintage looking Stella, but, it has it's limits. If you are one to run your scooter at the top end of it's speed range you're likely getting close to the limits of what that suspension can do for you in providing stability. I eventually found myself wanting to have access to 50-65 mph hour roads allowing for greater distances in my rides. As a result, my second scooter ended up being a Kymco Grand Vista. With its 250cc power plant, dual front end fork, and beefy suspension, distant destinations and occasional highway driving are a viable option. Both scooters have their special purposes but if I had to scale back to one scoot, goodbye Grand Vista. The Stella is just too much of a hoot!

Silver Streak · Post by **Silver Streak** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:44 pm

I'm not so sure the single-sided, trailing link front suspension has anything to do with it.

Vespa uses the same suspension on its 300cc models that top out at nearly 90mph without problems. They may have refined the geometry parameters slightly since the PX era, but the basic suspension remains the same.

I had my dealer switch out the Savas for Shinko whitewalls at delivery, and I haven't had any squirrely handling problems, even at top speed. I know the Shinkos aren't the greatest, but they are certainly better than the Savas.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:21 pm

+1 to everything said here. It sounds REALLY trivial and basic, but tire pressure can affect SO much of the ride and handling that it's not even funny. Kind of odd when you try to wrap your head around it, but it's true! It does more than tire compound, suspension and weight factored all together. I would check tire pressure first and then ditch the crappy factory tires second. That should solve 99% of all your problems when it comes to ride quality.

And don't worry: EVERY bike comes with crap factory rubber. Even the high end Moto-Guzzis, Ninjas, Ducatis and BMW's. Dunno why they do that...

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:08 pm

^^^^ Cause they are selling to a price point, and I guess when you are buying 100,000 tires crappy tire prices look good. LOL

Yeah, it always suprises me when I see a new bike in the showroom with good rubber ( Metzelers, dunlops etc)...sometimes it happens.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:23 pm

viney266 wrote:^^^^ Cause they are selling to a price point, and I guess when you are buying 100,000 tires crappy tire prices look good. LOL

Yeah, it always suprises me when I see a new bike in the showroom with good rubber ( Metzelers, dunlops etc)...sometimes it happens.

I mean, I know the obvious reason why. I'm just curious why they even try to do that on the bikes that buyers are used to paying a premium on (Vespa, BMW, etc). We know they are more expensive than other bikes, and we're paying for the name on alot of the product. Just put the better tires on there to begin with and call it done. Keep more of the money in your pocket by adding it to the MSRP and we can all have a little less headache

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:26 am

Vespa uses the same suspension on its 300cc models that top out at nearly 90mph without problems. They may have refined the geometry parameters slightly since the PX era, but the basic suspension remains the same

.
A buddy of mine just sold his 300cc Vespa for that very reason. He was experiencing an unexpected shudder occasionally at 70 mph. We have a top notch mechanic at our local shop and he explained in great detail how the front suspension was being pressed beyond what it was originally designed for when Vespas had far less power. He now rides a BV500 which is designed for for those speeds and the problem has been resolved......larger wheels obviously come into play.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:12 pm

I was in NOLA for Amervespa and I have to say you have some REALLY rough roads there!

I was getting a little "squirly" on my 67 GT. When I checked it out it was the front axle bolt had backed off slightly. The cotter pin did its job and kept it from completley backing off.

If you check it remember to use a drop of blue loc tite and ALWAYS a new cotter pin.

Silver Streak · Post by **Silver Streak** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:14 pm

Keith wrote:
Vespa uses the same suspension on its 300cc models that top out at nearly 90mph without problems. They may have refined the geometry parameters slightly since the PX era, but the basic suspension remains the same
.
A buddy of mine just sold his 300cc Vespa for that very reason. He was experiencing an unexpected shudder occasionally at 70 mph. We have a top notch mechanic at our local shop and he explained in great detail how the front suspension was being pressed beyond what it was originally designed for when Vespas had far less power. He now rides a BV500 which is designed for for those speeds and the problem has been resolved......larger wheels obviously come into play.

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

I have a kitted and upgeared Vespa LX150 fitted with Bitubo shocks front and rear that I routinely ride in the 70 - 75 mph range with NO handling problems, now that I've fitted urethane swingarm bushings in the rear (that was previously the weak link, NOT the front suspension).

I also have lots of friends with GTS/GTV-series Vespas who ride them even faster. No high-speed handling problems with those either, once they've gotten rid of the original Savas. They do typically have a slight LOW-speed wobble caused mostly by weight distribution biased too much toward the rear.

There is nothing inherent in the geometry of a trailing link suspension that makes it unsuitable for high speeds (those Piaggio fighter planes during WWII landed at some pretty high speeds on some pretty rough runways). Any high-speed handling advantage accrued to the BV500 comes from the larger wheels, which automatically add stability.

If you've got handling problems on a Stella or Vespa, look elsewhere. Most likely the tires, tire pressures, or the swingarm bushings.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:03 pm

Silver Streak wrote:
Keith wrote:
Vespa uses the same suspension on its 300cc models that top out at nearly 90mph without problems. They may have refined the geometry parameters slightly since the PX era, but the basic suspension remains the same
.
A buddy of mine just sold his 300cc Vespa for that very reason. He was experiencing an unexpected shudder occasionally at 70 mph. We have a top notch mechanic at our local shop and he explained in great detail how the front suspension was being pressed beyond what it was originally designed for when Vespas had far less power. He now rides a BV500 which is designed for for those speeds and the problem has been resolved......larger wheels obviously come into play.
Sorry, but I don't buy that.

I have a kitted and upgeared Vespa LX150 fitted with Bitubo shocks front and rear that I routinely ride in the 70 - 75 mph range with NO handling problems, now that I've fitted urethane swingarm bushings in the rear (that was previously the weak link, NOT the front suspension).

I also have lots of friends with GTS/GTV-series Vespas who ride them even faster. No high-speed handling problems with those either, once they've gotten rid of the original Savas. They do typically have a slight LOW-speed wobble caused mostly by weight distribution biased too much toward the rear.

There is nothing inherent in the geometry of a trailing link suspension that makes it unsuitable for high speeds (those Piaggio fighter planes during WWII landed at some pretty high speeds on some pretty rough runways). Any high-speed handling advantage accrued to the BV500 comes from the larger wheels, which automatically add stability.

If you've got handling problems on a Stella or Vespa, look elsewhere. Most likely the tires, tire pressures, or the swingarm bushings.

Yeah my Vespa 250 has no handling issues (and the 300 has improved units over the 250). I've ridden it at 70+mph a bunch of times with no issues. Sounds like another 'expert' who really isn't.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:58 pm

My GTS250 did freeway commutes at 65-75mph 2 hours a day for near to 2 years. Found it to be a very smooth ride and had no problems fighting Phoenix traffic with it. I did swap out the stock rubber for Continental Zippy 1's and found a HUGE difference that I preferred.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:27 pm

neotrotsky wrote:My GTS250 did freeway commutes at 65-75mph 2 hours a day for near to 2 years. Found it to be a very smooth ride and had no problems fighting Phoenix traffic with it. I did swap out the stock rubber for Continental Zippy 1's and found a HUGE difference that I preferred.

Hmm, maybe Keith should re-consider his 'top notch' mechanic..

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:41 am

Silver Streak wrote:
Keith wrote:
Vespa uses the same suspension on its 300cc models that top out at nearly 90mph without problems. They may have refined the geometry parameters slightly since the PX era, but the basic suspension remains the same
.
A buddy of mine just sold his 300cc Vespa for that very reason. He was experiencing an unexpected shudder occasionally at 70 mph. We have a top notch mechanic at our local shop and he explained in great detail how the front suspension was being pressed beyond what it was originally designed for when Vespas had far less power. He now rides a BV500 which is designed for for those speeds and the problem has been resolved......larger wheels obviously come into play.
Sorry, but I don't buy that.

I don't either.

Mulliganal · Post by **Mulliganal** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:28 am

desmolicious wrote:Have you checked your tyre pressures?

Recommended is 17/27

Mine settled down once I put them there from the dealership's 30/30.

Also, the stock whitewalls are crap tyres. I immediately replaced mine w/ Micheline S83

I need to check my tire pressure for sure. It doesn't feel like the stock white walls are gripping around turns or when out and about at higher speeds. The 17/27 is front/back correct?

The Michelin s83 are pretty cheap tires at $25; are they any good? I paid more than $25 for my cycling road bike tires.

What are some of the best gripping tires out there for scooters?

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:01 am

Silver Streak wrote:
Keith wrote:
Vespa uses the same suspension on its 300cc models that top out at nearly 90mph without problems. They may have refined the geometry parameters slightly since the PX era, but the basic suspension remains the same
.
A buddy of mine just sold his 300cc Vespa for that very reason. He was experiencing an unexpected shudder occasionally at 70 mph. We have a top notch mechanic at our local shop and he explained in great detail how the front suspension was being pressed beyond what it was originally designed for when Vespas had far less power. He now rides a BV500 which is designed for for those speeds and the problem has been resolved......larger wheels obviously come into play.
Sorry, but I don't buy that.

I have a kitted and upgeared Vespa LX150 fitted with Bitubo shocks front and rear that I routinely ride in the 70 - 75 mph range with NO handling problems, now that I've fitted urethane swingarm bushings in the rear (that was previously the weak link, NOT the front suspension).

I also have lots of friends with GTS/GTV-series Vespas who ride them even faster. No high-speed handling problems with those either, once they've gotten rid of the original Savas. They do typically have a slight LOW-speed wobble caused mostly by weight distribution biased too much toward the rear.

There is nothing inherent in the geometry of a trailing link suspension that makes it unsuitable for high speeds (those Piaggio fighter planes during WWII landed at some pretty high speeds on some pretty rough runways). Any high-speed handling advantage accrued to the BV500 comes from the larger wheels, which automatically add stability.

If you've got handling problems on a Stella or Vespa, look elsewhere. Most likely the tires, tire pressures, or the swingarm bushings.

The GTs and GTSs have long suffered from complaints of wobbles and head shakes. The lower-speed ones are discussed on MV, here. But there have been many MV threads about higher speed shakes, for whatever reasons.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:53 am

In my experience, it seems that there were many GTS's that were sold with out bar-end counterweights. The dealer sold them with the top box ( a ridiculously overpriced option btw...) insisting they were needed for "stability due to the change in chassis aerodynamics" by adding the box. After about two months of having the box I grew sick of it and sold it on Craigslist for $275. Left the bar ends on and upgraded the rubber. And, I never had a problem with them from day one! Dunno if that had something to do with it.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:14 pm

Mulliganal wrote:The Michelin s83 are pretty cheap tires at $25; are they any good?

Yes, I use them on my PX and Stella. Very nice. I paid a lot more than $25! I think it was $40 each.

fulmitz · Post by **fulmitz** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:00 am

So what would be better? the Michelin S83's which I'd have to order over the internet or the Prima's my dealer has instock for $45? BTW I found the S83's for $25-$30 at motorcyclesuperstore.com. Thanks,

Rob

cmac · Post by **cmac** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:58 am

I liked the zippy1s. Currently using sl26s by pirelli. They're both good.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:05 am

Heidenaus freaking rock!

fulmitz · Post by **fulmitz** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:54 pm

Did anyone change their rims? At my local shop they said that even though they were tubless tires I would need to use a tube with the stock rim since it's in 3 pieces and has a seam? Or I could get new rims. Does it matter tubeless or not?

Rob

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:55 pm

fulmitz wrote:Did anyone change their rims? At my local shop they said that even though they were tubless tires I would need to use a tube with the stock rim since it's in 3 pieces and has a seam? Or I could get new rims. Does it matter tubeless or not?

Rob

Your dealer is right.

I generally prefer tubeless tires because they're less prone to blowouts and much easier to repair. A plug in a tubeless tire can last the tire's life. A tubed tire that's been patched should be replaced ASAP.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:53 pm

Also tubed tires are generally rated to 62mph. I have a set of SIP tubeless rims and tires for my CBR build rated to 75 mph

fulmitz · Post by **fulmitz** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:35 pm

I really don't plan on going over 50mph anyway. It just doesn't feel suited to the scooter. When I have the need for speed I'll take out my VFR1200. It's funny, my VFR is more like a scooter as it's TNG with a DCT (although you can paddle shift in manual mode), and my scooter more like a motorcycle with a manual shift.

The Prima tires seem the easiest way to go as they're local and in stock. Not too concerned with plugging VS. replacing at this stage as it's a third vehicle and $45 won't make or break me. I just want a "better" ride. The guy at the shop showed me and the Prima tire next to the tire on the Stella and it's WAY WIDER. Still gotta check the tire pressure on my Stella. Gonna do that now.

Rob

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:53 am

There may be clearance issues with the wider tyre on the rear.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:53 am

fulmitz wrote: Still gotta check the tire pressure on my Stella. Gonna do that now.
Rob

Uh.....yeah...it has been almost 2 weeks since your OP and you haven't checked the pressure yet?

Tire pressure is one of the most critical items and one of the items that needs to be checked frequently. It takes less than a minute to check, please don't risk your safety to save 1 minute!

fulmitz · Post by **fulmitz** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:36 pm

I haven't been able to ride since then so I figured I'd do it when I'm out. I've been using my motorcycle as of late.

As for the Prima tires not fitting, the shop says that is the replacement tire they carry for the Stella and they say it fits. So far they seem to know what they're doing. They even knew to put the rubber grommets between the cowl protector and the paint so the finish doesn't get damaged.

Rob