SYM / Alliance - My Take

[pcbikedude]

When the Carter Bros. warehouse mysteriously burned down over a year ago, justgottascoot put out a warning on purchasing SYM scooters. I was of the opinion, let wait and see what shakes out.

Since then, Alliance (aka Lance) Powersports has taken up distribution of the SYM products in this country. I was glad to see Alliance trying to rebuild the dealer network that Carter had started. I was also glad to see them get the Wolf, HD200, and Fiddle II CARB approved.

As you can tell, I had 2 different SYM products, Symba and the HD200. The HD200 is now totaled. I need to preface the following with this: SYM is an excellent product. It's quality is equal to PGO and slightly less than a Kymco.

I would reiterate justgottascoot's warning about SYM and now Alliance. I recently have had 3 issues that really don't make too much sense.

First, I had my HD200 in for routine high mileage service. The belt and the rollers had to be changed. The price I got for the rollers alone was $20 less than the whole assembly including new rollers. Guess what I went for?

Second, the DOT signal light boots started cracking on my Symba and I wanted to get just 2 to replace the worst of them. There is nothing special about these lights. The are universal and no difference from a right and left one because they are bolted on. Alliance wanted me to buy the whole set of 4 plus the assembly bracket. I said, screw it, and bolted on chrome LED universal ones (which look better anyway).

This week, I got the word on my HD200, it is totaled. Because the repairs would have cost more than the bike was worth. It's not because it lost all that value. But Alliance would have to cannibalize parts off a new HD200 just to fix mine. Plus, they were going to require whole assemblies of parts, that were not damaged, to be purchased as a whole. For example: the front rim was bent. Just to get the rim, I would have to replace the brake assembly too. The brake assembly is just attached.

I've had a similar repair done to my Kymco People 150 and it cost far less than what Alliance wants because Kymco has the individual parts.

Also, I've found out that parts for SYM products are more expensive than even Vespa parts.

My personal recommendation, avoid SYM products in this country for now. Hopefully, Alliance will improve over time.

[jrsjr]

That's a shame, because the SYM HD200 is a really good scooter.

[k1dude]

That really sucks! Thanks for the heads-up. What are you going to do with your HD200 now? It's too big and expensive to use as a paperweight. Will insurance get you a new one? Will you save the old one for parts?

[irishtim]

Thanks for the insight (albeit sad). I loved my Symba and would have kept it but feared support (and resale value) would not be there. I sold it this past July when I was able to get decent money for it.

[pcbikedude]

That really sucks! Thanks for the heads-up. What are you going to do with your HD200 now? It's too big and expensive to use as a paperweight. Will insurance get you a new one? Will you save the old one for parts?

It belongs to the insurance company now. They are going to cut me a check tomorrow for it. It certainly not enough to buy a scooter of similar size. But I could afford a Buddy 170 or Kymco People 150 or Like 200i (163cc).

Thanks for the insight (albeit sad). I loved my Symba and would have kept it but feared support (and resale value) would not be there. I sold it this past July when I was able to get decent money for it.

My plan was to keep the Symba as a weekend rider. I do fear for support because Alliance. A mechanic that I knew worked for a Lance shop, he told me that it was Lance Dealer's practice to cannibalize good scooters to fix broken ones. I guess old habits die hard.

That's a shame, because the SYM HD200 is a really good scooter.

I've owned 5 different scooters. The HD200 was by far the most fun. Big and powerful to be on the freeway and yet light and nimble.

[k1dude]

A mechanic that I knew worked for a Lance shop, he told me that it was Lance Dealer's practice to cannibalize good scooters to fix broken ones. I guess old habits die hard.

That's a pretty slimy if not illegal practice. Especially if they weren't disclosing the used parts. Even if they were disclosing the practice, I wouldn't trust they were using new if they told me they were. I might be able to understand the practice when dealing with Lance, considering parts probably weren't made readily available in the US from Lance in China. But that's not the case with Sym.

[Syd]

A mechanic that I knew worked for a Lance shop, he told me that it was Lance Dealer's practice to cannibalize good scooters to fix broken ones. I guess old habits die hard.

To be fair, is your friend talking about one Lance Dealer or Lance the importer/distributor? Is he talking about Lance the last year or so, selling only the rebranded SYM bike, or the Lance that imported the same mainland China sourced product the online only sellers had?

As for the scoot being totaled, I've seen it posted here before that insurance companies are more likely to total scoots and bikes that have been in substantial accidents just because of the potential liability down the road.

I have high hopes for SYM in the US and Lance/Alliance for picking up the line. They stepped in at a lousy time in the US economy, they are starting with a very limited lineup (no 50cc scoots, even). Maybe they want to keep themselves in the black until such time as SYM becomes established again.

And maybe not, maybe they are snakes; that would truly suck.

[ericalm]

Is the issue here mainly parts availability? Do you know if all these prices are set by Alliance and if they're different from what Carter Bros. was asking for the same parts?

[pcbikedude]

Is the issue here mainly parts availability? Do you know if all these prices are set by Alliance and if they're different from what Carter Bros. was asking for the same parts?

Per a former dealer, the prices for parts is more than Carter charged and they are harder to get. Alliance does not have the individual parts available for a scooter that they do carry. Those who have other scooters, they are probably orphaned. I have doubts that they have anything more than consumables for their current scooters.

The other dealer who evaluated my scooter is honest and open. The problem lies with squarely with Alliance. I've had to replace body and fork parts on a Kymco and body parts on a Buddy. I've never had to purchase any more parts than my scooter needed.

That's why the Kymco GT and the Genuine Blur 220i are on the top of my list.
Remember, I have no problem with the SYM products.

[Syd]

Have you sat on one of the new People GTs? I really wanted it to fit my 35" inseam, but it was seriously cramped. I was bummed. Now I'm thinking of a SportCity 250, the seat looks almost flat, which would be a huge plus in fitment.

[pcbikedude]

Have you sat on one of the new People GTs? I really wanted it to fit my 35" inseam, but it was seriously cramped. I was bummed. Now I'm thinking of a SportCity 250, the seat looks almost flat, which would be a huge plus in fitment.

Yes, I have. I was fine because I'm shorter. The only problem with the People GT's is the price. They are not much cheaper than a Vespa. In that case, I would buy a Vespa or a BV.

[Syd]

Have you sat on one of the new People GTs? I really wanted it to fit my 35" inseam, but it was seriously cramped. I was bummed. Now I'm thinking of a SportCity 250, the seat looks almost flat, which would be a huge plus in fitment.

Yes, I have. I was fine because I'm shorter. The only problem with the People GT's is the price. They are not much cheaper than a Vespa. In that case, I would buy a Vespa or a BV.

Yeah, I did swallow hard when I first saw the 300's MSRP. I was hoping the bigger wheels would save on tire costs, and the Kymco would be a bit less finicky than the Vespas/BVs reportedly are.

[Keys]

Maybe I'll trade my HD200 in on a Ural SoloST...

http://www.imz-ural.com/solo.aspl


--Keys

[pcbikedude]

Nah, I rather have one of these:
http://www.royalenfield.com/motorcycles ... x?model=10

I saw one of those URALs on Monday with a sidecar.

[jrsjr]

Nah, I rather have one of these:
http://www.royalenfield.com/motorcycles ... x?model=10

The problem with that bike is that the seat does not allow you to shift forward or (in my case) backward. This is not a big deal if the bike is a perfect fit, but tall guys like me are better off with the bench-seat on the RE so we can find a comfy seating position.

P.S. I'm kinda partial to this RE mod. That's some serious voodoo there.

[AWinn6889]

Nah, I rather have one of these:
http://www.royalenfield.com/motorcycles ... x?model=10

I saw one of those URALs on Monday with a sidecar.

There was a gorgeous light aqua/teal Royal Enfield with a side car for sale for cheap at the dealership that my bf bought his Harley from... I wanted it so bad. But by the time I had the funds for purchasing my two-wheeled dream (about two months later), it was gone

[Dooglas]

Nah, I rather have one of these:

This is the website of the US importer for Enfield and I believe the B and G models are available with a bench seat.

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/model ... ic-b5.html

[Howardr]

Maybe I'll trade my HD200 in on a Ural SoloST...

http://www.imz-ural.com/solo.aspl


--Keys

I went to Sierra Vista a while back to check out the Ural Sidecar hacks. I love the bikes but I'm very concerned about parts availability. The guy showed me how they order parts, where they come from etc. It would appear that getting SYM parts is a perfect experience by comparison.

There are very few Urals on the road in the US, so they have many of the same issues as scooters.

Howard

[ericalm]

There are a fair number of Urals around here. Riders don't need a motorcycle endorsement to ride a sidecar rig here. The Urals are popular with the "wife won't let me get on 2 wheels," "I want to haul my kid around" and over 60 demos.

The Enfields are nice, but not great performers. Injected 50cc with a top speed of maybe 75mph or so. They're really for people who want the look with some modern features and a warranty. Kind of like, um, a Stella 4T. The big difference is that the Stella 4T performs as well or better than its vintage counterparts.

[ScootsMcGillicuddy]

Have you sat on one of the new People GTs? I really wanted it to fit my 35" inseam, but it was seriously cramped. I was bummed. Now I'm thinking of a SportCity 250, the seat looks almost flat, which would be a huge plus in fitment.

Hey Syd,

I have a 36" inseam and a SportCity 250. First off, LOVE LOVE that bike! It is awesome! It is very tall and perfect when stopped. I would suggest that it is still a bit cramped for longer rides. While the height is perfection, the wheelbase is still not very long and I do still feel cramped up. I have thought of a larger Burgman or Silverwing but I just love the Sportcity so much that I can't seem to part with it even with the lack of leg room.

Just my .02

[Syd]

Have you sat on one of the new People GTs? I really wanted it to fit my 35" inseam, but it was seriously cramped. I was bummed. Now I'm thinking of a SportCity 250, the seat looks almost flat, which would be a huge plus in fitment.

Hey Syd,

I have a 36" inseam and a SportCity 250. First off, LOVE LOVE that bike! It is awesome! It is very tall and perfect when stopped. I would suggest that it is still a bit cramped for longer rides. While the height is perfection, the wheelbase is still not very long and I do still feel cramped up. I have thought of a larger Burgman or Silverwing but I just love the Sportcity so much that I can't seem to part with it even with the lack of leg room.

Just my .02

Some of the pictures I've seen online make the SportCity look like it has a fairly flat seat, instead of hte two-level seats common on modern scoots. Is that true, or does the SportCity have the tiered seat too?

[JFRTX]

I've actually been looking to get a scoot and I've narrowed it down to either a Buddy International or a Lance Cali Classic 125. Because this Lance/Alliance/SYM deal is so new, should I just go with a Buddy? Obviously I might get some biased answers here lol, but I love the styling of their Cali Classic and it looks as if the seat can handle 2-up riding a little better. I've yet to go and sit on both of them and get a feel though. I'm hoping that because the scooter is basically an SYM that it'll be as reliable just as reliable as the Buddy. I know for a fact that Taiwanese scooters are among the best there is.

[Rippinyarn]

For example: the front rim was bent. Just to get the rim, I would have to replace the brake assembly too. The brake assembly is just attached.

If you are talking about the disk, it's apparently standard scooter practice to sell the wheels with a new disk attached. It happened on my buddies Chinese 150 and on my Blur when we were replacing the front rim (his came with a tire too!).

As far as the Cali Classic vs. the Buddy, we know that the Buddy is as near bulletproof as any scooter could be. The dealership where I got my Blur also carries the CC and he is not impressed with what it takes to get one running when someone finally buys one. One point of data for you

[babblefish]

There are a fair number of Urals around here. Riders don't need a motorcycle endorsement to ride a sidecar rig here. The Urals are popular with the "wife won't let me get on 2 wheels," "I want to haul my kid around" and over 60 demos.

The Enfields are nice, but not great performers. Injected 50cc with a top speed of maybe 75mph or so. They're really for people who want the look with some modern features and a warranty. Kind of like, um, a Stella 4T. The big difference is that the Stella 4T performs as well or better than its vintage counterparts.

um...I think they're 500cc...

[ericalm]

There are a fair number of Urals around here. Riders don't need a motorcycle endorsement to ride a sidecar rig here. The Urals are popular with the "wife won't let me get on 2 wheels," "I want to haul my kid around" and over 60 demos.

The Enfields are nice, but not great performers. Injected 50cc with a top speed of maybe 75mph or so. They're really for people who want the look with some modern features and a warranty. Kind of like, um, a Stella 4T. The big difference is that the Stella 4T performs as well or better than its vintage counterparts.

um...I think they're 500cc...

Whoops, typo!

[ericalm]

I've actually been looking to get a scoot and I've narrowed it down to either a Buddy International or a Lance Cali Classic 125. Because this Lance/Alliance/SYM deal is so new, should I just go with a Buddy? Obviously I might get some biased answers here lol, but I love the styling of their Cali Classic and it looks as if the seat can handle 2-up riding a little better. I've yet to go and sit on both of them and get a feel though. I'm hoping that because the scooter is basically an SYM that it'll be as reliable just as reliable as the Buddy. I know for a fact that Taiwanese scooters are among the best there is.

I'll happily promote any of the scooters that I (subjectively) think are good regardless of who makes them!

This is me choosing my words very carefully:
In general (and this is pretty broad), the scooters from Taiwanese companies that they build in mainland China aren't (yet) of the same quality as those they manufacture in Taiwan. The reason they build in China is to save money and corners sometimes get cut. There are some exceptions, though, and while the Chinese-built models may be made from lower-quality plastics and may be more prone to issues I've not heard of any serious, chronic problems with the SYM and Kymcos built in China. The issues I have heard of from dealers and a few owners are often with the electronics; I think they often use cheaper components.

The Cali Classic is a curious beast. As we've discussed elsewhere, it's a very popular design, and for the many scooter buyers who want a Joker clone, this is the probably best version of the many on the US market.

BUT I'm a bit wary due to the current situation, parts availability and all the other issues raised here. I wouldn't go so far as to steer people away from Lance as long as they know the issues and what they could be in store for. If your local dealer sells both the SYMs and the Buddy, I'd just tell them you're buying one or the other and ask about reliability, parts and warranty support.

The flip side is that we know the Buddy is super-reliable and great warranty support, etc. Parts availability is an issue for all manufacturers (even Honda, Vespa, etc.) and Genuine is as good as the rest.

[pcbikedude]

I'm aware that there was a dealer here on MB, or trolling here, alerted Alliance to my post here but chose to reply on a different forum. I'm not going to address my specific issues here.

After talking with the insurance adjuster today, the SYM is considered to be an "exotic" brand. Meaning that there are very few on the road compared to other brands.

According to one former SYM dealer, parts are expensive (more than Vespa!!!!) and hard to come by.
As far as repairs are concerned, I've never had any issue getting parts, even body parts, from Genuine or Kymco. I've had problems getting a turn signal from Alliance/SYM/Lance.

Check out some of the reviews online on both the Buddy and Cali. You'll find the Buddy is a far superior scooter. Also, investigate the dealer thoroughly. Your local BBB is a good place to start.

[Syd]

I'm aware that there was a dealer here on MB, or trolling here, alerted Alliance to my post here but chose to reply on a different forum. I'm not going to address my specific issues here.

After talking with the insurance adjuster today, the SYM is considered to be an "exotic" brand. Meaning that there are very few on the road compared to other brands.

According to one former SYM dealer, parts are expensive (more than Vespa!!!!) and hard to come by.
As far as repairs are concerned, I've never had any issue getting parts, even body parts, from Genuine or Kymco. I've had problems getting a turn signal from Alliance/SYM/Lance.

Check out some of the reviews online on both the Buddy and Cali. You'll find the Buddy is a far superior scooter. Also, investigate the dealer thoroughly. Your local BBB is a good place to start.

As a former HD200 owner and current Fiddle II owner, I want SYM to succeed in the US. Mechanically speaking, the HD200 is still probably the best sub 250cc scoot sold here.

But SYM made an unfortunate choice for a national distributor some years back, and have been catching up ever since. The Lance/Alliance deal may turn out to be, like Scooterworks/Genuine, a great combination, combining Lance's marketing abilities with SYM's (mostly) top-quality hardware. Or Lance's reputation from the past may be too much to overcome. Personally, I hope for the best.

I'd still favor the Buddy over the Cali Classic though, unless you really will ride two-up on a regular basis.

[pcbikedude]

The Lance-SYM alliance started on a weird note. Lance tried to back door a SYM product around Carter Brothers while CB was still the distributers here in the US. This is still kind of stuck in the back of my mind.

I have serious doubts about SYM in this country at this time. I'm strongly considering selling my Symba because of them.

Enough about them: Help me find a replacement for my HD200!

[Syd]

Do you have an Aprilia dealer near you? I'm waiting for my local dealer to get a SportCity 250 in stock. Though I've heard parts availability is sketchy for Aprilias, they can't be much worse than what we've encountered lately, can they?

[ericalm]

Do you have an Aprilia dealer near you? I'm waiting for my local dealer to get a SportCity 250 in stock. Though I've heard parts availability is sketchy for Aprilias, they can't be much worse than what we've encountered lately, can they?

The Aprilia parts availability is better than it was before they were merged with Piaggio. And now it's about as good as the rest of the Piaggio line. That's to say, most parts you can get okay, but some… buona fortuna! And if you need something from Italy in August, you'll be waiting until October. No parts in August! Sigh.

[Syd]

^^I work for a Dutch company, so I'm well aware of summer holidays. A person will go on holiday without notice, and put a coworker in their Out of Office message. Fine, but it would be better if the replacement

1.) Knew about it
2.) Wasn't himself going on holiday for the same time period.

:Sigh: Starts in July, and continues throughout the summer, ending in September.