NMBR: Electric MC but where are the scooters?

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:34 pm

http://www.gizmag.com/zero-motorcycles- ... cle/20432/

These people have recently upped their game. Range is now greatly extended because of new battery tech. And yes, they're still way expensive.

But where are the scooters? There's that failed maxi thing, the Vectrix. And I've seen a small one on the Kymco site. Lots of concepts but no wheels on the ground. A scooter seems natural for an E-bike. The bodywork should hold lots of batteries, people tend to use them for short commutes, plus electric bikes require no transmission, no shifting.

Unlike motorcycles, there's no styling problem. You just shove the electric guts under whatever sort of bodywork, modern or retro, suits you.

This absence seems very curious.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:53 pm

Curious? I'm not so sure. I imagine the number of motorcycles sold in the US is orders of magnitude greater than the number of scoots, so it would make sense to design a motorcycle rather than a scoot.

More curious is why the gizmag article pages won't render in Opera.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:03 pm

Sorry. I use IE, Firefox and, at home, Chromium on a Linux laptop. It comes through on all pretty well.

I still think the idea should be a winner. After all, the market for conventional motorcycles and scooters probably isn't growing much. Electrics might attract people who've never ridden before.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:46 pm

Meh. Not interested. Who wants to get between 40 and 80 miles for a 6 hour charge? Not me. It might be good for someone that lives in the city and only has a few miles to commute and a few close errands to run. And 80 mph with no wind going downhill? Meh.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:50 pm

I rest my case.

heatherkay · Post by **heatherkay** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:53 pm

k1dude wrote:Meh. Not interested. Who wants to get between 40 and 80 miles for a 6 hour charge? Not me. It might be good for someone that lives in the city and only has a few miles to commute and a few close errands to run. And 80 mph with no wind going downhill? Meh.

But that does sound like how many (most?) people use their scooters. There are a lot of people on this board who do longer touring, but I don't ever plan to do that. I bought mine for my 15-mile-round-trip commute and selected bopping-around-town locations. If I could have bought an electric scooter for anything approaching the price of the Buddy, I would have seriously considered it.

thehypercube · Post by **thehypercube** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:56 pm

12-14 mile round trip commute 5 days a week. variable distance on weekends but never out of aforementioned range. would work great for me.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:58 pm

heatherkay wrote:But that does sound like how many (most?) people use their scooters. There are a lot of people on this board who do longer touring, but I don't ever plan to do that. I bought mine for my 15-mile-round-trip commute and selected bopping-around-town locations. If I could have bought an electric scooter for anything approaching the price of the Buddy, I would have seriously considered it.

Yes. But as southerner put it, a scooter is a natural for an e-bike, not a motorcycle.

Scooters are ridden for short distances and to run errands, more so than motorcycles. And scooters are usually kept under 80 mph. It makes more sense to make it an e-scooter.

Also, when I jump on my scooter, I usually run between 60 and 120 miles of errands. I'd run out of juice half the time. Also, many here put on serious miles every week. Much more than the current motorcycle would allow.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:59 pm

The problems with electric vehicles all center around the battery. Battery life, cruising range, recharge time, battery life cyle, environmentally-responsible disposal, etc.

Like the Nissan Leaf, if what the vehicle does fits within your performance envelope, it can work out well. But 17k for a car that can't make an out-of-town trip is expensive. A few thou for a bike that's only used to commute and run local errands, and stores away in a corner of the garage, makes more sense.

120 miles is a LOT of errands. Where do you put all that stuff?

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Well, Zero Motorcycles announced their new battery cell will hold a charge for 114 miles. People will bemoan this, but realize that my P200e gets 58mpg on average. And, with the size of the tank and depending on my driving habits, that's about the same range I get on my vintage scooter.

Just food for thought...

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:38 pm

True, but how long does it take to 'recharge' the P? How long does it take to recharge the Zero. That is not a good comparison.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:39 pm

neotrotsky wrote:Well, Zero Motorcycles announced their new battery cell will hold a charge for 114 miles. People will bemoan this, but realize that my P200e gets 58mpg on average. And, with the size of the tank and depending on my driving habits, that's about the same range I get on my vintage scooter.

Just food for thought...

But then when they tested it, it was only getting between 40 and 80 depending on use, not 114. Also, the 88 mph was optimistic. In testing they could only get 80. And I imagine that was for a short distance with the wind at their back.

And you can fill your P200e tank in 2 minutes, not 6 hours.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:44 pm

I see a lot of electric scooters advertised for sale around these parts, but I don't know how many are actually on the road. I imagine that there are quite a few in Berkeley across the Bay though. I thought about buying a used one (lots on Craigslist) and modifying it for better run times, more power and lighter weight by upgrading the batteries to Lithium Polymer.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:44 pm

I was thinking about this as well this week as there were a lot of electric MCs on display at EICMA but few scooters other than ones we already know exist. I'm not even sure if LML had the electric Stella on display again.

I've always thought that scooters would make a great platform for electric motors in this early stage in their development. The tech is improving quickly and I think these will be much more commercially viable (and affordable) in a couple of years.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:03 pm

k1dude wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:Well, Zero Motorcycles announced their new battery cell will hold a charge for 114 miles. People will bemoan this, but realize that my P200e gets 58mpg on average. And, with the size of the tank and depending on my driving habits, that's about the same range I get on my vintage scooter.

Just food for thought...
But then when they tested it, it was only getting between 40 and 80 depending on use, not 114. Also, the 88 mph was optimistic. In testing they could only get 80. And I imagine that was for a short distance with the wind at their back.

And you can fill your P200e tank in 2 minutes, not 6 hours.

This is why I say electric fits scooters better than motorcycles. What scooter rider spends much time at 80mph, much less 88?

And if the range is sufficient for an entire day, the recharge time is no problem because you will be charging it at home during the night.

superseagulls · Post by **superseagulls** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:18 pm

ericalm wrote:I was thinking about this as well this week as there were a lot of electric MCs on display at EICMA but few scooters other than ones we already know exist. I'm not even sure if LML had the electric Stella on display again.

I've always thought that scooters would make a great platform for electric motors in this early stage in their development. The tech is improving quickly and I think these will be much more commercially viable (and affordable) in a couple of years.

But the ROI just plain sucks, these are such a niche market until they are a comparable price to a gas powered scooter it will never work, yes you may be greener.
Take the ZF9 to get a comparable mileage range as a scooter, $13,995
A recharge cost of $0.95 per time, as opposed to lets say $4.00 gallon gas. That's a saving of $3 per (full) Tank or range.
5 Full drives to work - 5 days/week = $15 week saving - $720 year. The $10K premium would take 13 years to recoup, IF you drove the full range every day, 48 weeks of the year......

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Certainly the price will have to come down. I think that problem centers on the batteries as well.

After all, how long have electric motors been around? Some designers have pointed out that the MC designs out have been using motors not originally designed for this specific use and thing will improve when they are purpose-built but I still think the batteries are the hump.

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:29 pm

there's a dude here at work that rides an electric scooter. He'd plug his into an outlet outside. It was a regular looking scooter albiet in the vein of COS scooters - also it was gold. It only went 35mph down the hill and like 15mph up the hill so he only rides it in the bike lane (illegally I might add). I never saw the dude (I'm told it was a dude) as he got here before me and left before me so I never got to ask him about it but I think it was this:

http://www.electric-scooters-galore.com/zapino.html

so the problem wasn't how many miles it could go it was how slow you got there

Roose Hurro · Post by **Roose Hurro** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:57 am

jijifer wrote:there's a dude here at work that rides an electric scooter. He'd plug his into an outlet outside. It was a regular looking scooter albiet in the vein of COS scooters - also it was gold. It only went 35mph down the hill and like 15mph up the hill so he only rides it in the bike lane (illegally I might add). I never saw the dude (I'm told it was a dude) as he got here before me and left before me so I never got to ask him about it but I think it was this:

http://www.electric-scooters-galore.com/zapino.html

so the problem wasn't how many miles it could go it was how slow you got there

On the very site you link to, the notice: "This item has been discontinued by the manufacturer and is no longer available." I don't think we have to wonder why...

Alb brajn · Post by **Alb brajn** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:37 am

Here in Austin there is an electric scooter that is imported from Europe. Top speed of 50mph, range of 50-60miles, and a cost only $500-$1,000 more then the buddy. I see them pretty regularly on the UT campus and occasionally in the burbs. I didn't have enough when I was in the market, otherwise I would have looked into it more. I would like to drive one before making a solid decission on it, but the price is not bad and the specs appear to meet what most city commuters would need.

http://www.electricavenuescooters.com/scooters/

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:30 pm

Looks, plus it reminds me of another favorite song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuwxZSIS__4