Warm up time

[teabow1]

Some posts and reviews on the internet mention the necessity of a "warm-up time" for many scooters before riding in cold weather.

First of all, what happens if you just start up the scooter and use it within a minute in say temperature of 34F to 43F?

Second, what is considered a normal warm-up time for a scooter in cold weather (say 34F to 43F)?

[Howardr]

I'm sure you'll get a variety of opinions on this matter. It seems to be a matter of what you grew up with, or "Whose opinion do I respect the most?"

For me, I've never used any warm-up time on any vehicle I've ever owned or in any climate in which I've ever lived. Sure, I'm in AZ now, but I used to live in Missouri where temps are pretty cold.

I figure the 2-3 minutes it takes me to get out of my neighborhood at 25mph is sufficient warm up. I don't suggest you start the bike then immediately run wide open with it.

My $.02

Howard

[teabow1]

Well, I just found this:

http://motophilosopher.blogspot.com/200 ... -your.html

and it seems to basically suggest to me that warming-up time doesn't mean you're not allowed to ride the bike. It means opening the choke for a certain amount of time, riding it, and then pushing down the choke. Well, in the case of the Metropolitan and Buddy, I think they have autochokes so it doesn't seem to matter.

So is warm-up time for Buddy or Metropolitan not an issue in cold weather?

[Skootz Kabootz]

The Buddy has an auto choke. Correct warmup time is to let the scooter idle until you hear the RPM's drop to normal idle. Have I ever done this? Never. But I'm in LA. We're not exactly talking extreme temperatures here.

[TVB]

I don't let the scooter just sit to warm up. Usually the time I spend waiting for a break in traffic to leave my driveway (I'm on a somewhat busy street), or the time it takes me to get out of the parking lot to the main street after work) is enough before I open up the throttle and rev it.

[k1dude]

I always start my Buddy up, then gear-up. By the time I'm geared-up the Buddy is warmed-up.

At times when I gear-up faster than the warm-up, I jump on the Buddy and keep it under 25 through the parking lot or neighborhood until it's fully warm.

[jijifer]

the Buddy owner manual recommends letting the idle settle. It has nothing to do with temp - you're supposed to do it every time before riding. Of course, if the bike is cold it will take longer for the idle to settle. The estimate is 2 mins. I find mine always takes closer to 4 mins. I'm in San Diego so it's not too terribly cold ever but can get in to the low 40s.

it's clearly audible when the idle settles, there's no mistaking that has happened.

Riding without warming up puts undo stress and wear on the engine. I suspect it also shortens battery life when used for quick, short trips.

Everyone will give you all sorts of advice but the manufacturer is probably best to adhere to. Let the idle settle before riding

[k1dude]

the Buddy owner manual recommends letting the idle settle. It has nothing to do with temp - you're supposed to do it every time before riding. Of course, if the bike is cold it will take longer for the idle to settle. The estimate is 2 mins. I find mine always takes closer to 4 mins. I'm in San Diego so it's not too terribly cold ever but can get in to the low 40s.

it's clearly audible when the idle settles, there's no mistaking that has happened.

Riding without warming up puts undo stress and wear on the engine. I suspect it also shortens battery life when used for quick, short trips.

Everyone will give you all sorts of advice but the manufacturer is probably best to adhere to. Let the idle settle before riding

It has everything to do with temperature. A cold engine requires a very rich air/fuel mixture to start because cold fuel vaporizes slowly. Once the engine starts to warm up, the fuel mixture is leaned out.

Warming up a scooter is the same as warming up a car - which is fine to drive slowly during the warm up.

[jijifer]

It has everything to do with temperature. A cold engine requires a very rich air/fuel mixture to start because cold fuel vaporizes slowly. Once the engine starts to warm up, the fuel mixture is leaned out.

Warming up a scooter is the same as warming up a car - which is fine to drive slowly during the warm up.

manufacture says to "warm up" every time prior to riding- so regardless of temp. what temp effects is how long to warm up. You know your scooter is warmed up when the idle settles. It's an audible difference. Yes, you can chose to not follow these instructions but no one knows these scoots like the manufacturer. Short of shaking spark plug caps loose, I have have 2.5 years and 23K will zero starting problems, no mechanical failures , original battery still strong and zero breakdowns by following manufacturer recommendations. I'm a believer!! You don't have to be.

[k1dude]

manufacture says to "warm up" every time prior to riding- so regardless of temp. what temp effects is how long to warm up. You know your scooter is warmed up when the idle settles. It's an audible difference. Yes, you can chose to not follow these instructions but no one knows these scoots like the manufacturer. Short of shaking spark plug caps loose, I have have 2.5 years and 23K will zero starting problems, no mechanical failures , original battery still strong and zero breakdowns by following manufacturer recommendations. I'm a believer!! You don't have to be.

An engine usually runs at between 200 and 250 Fahrenheit. Unless you live on Venus, I doubt our ambient temperature will ever achieve that level unless global warming goes crazy. So the warm up is to achieve operating temperature or at least enough to open the choke (usually around 180 to 190 degrees). It's fine to ride your Buddy slowly to achieve that. Manuals are written assuming no one has any common sense. If they said you could ride it slowly while warming up, some idiot would consider WOT "slowly". Then they'd make a warranty claim and plaster the internet that Genuine makes crap.

You always have to accomodate the lowest common denominator or risk getting a lawsuit thrown at you. Why do you think your iron comes with a label to not use on cats? Why do you think your blow dryer comes with a label to not cut the power cord with scissors. Yes, some idiot did that and then sued and WON! That's why we see idiotic instructions and warnings.

[hchoa]

manufacture says to "warm up" every time prior to riding- so regardless of temp. what temp effects is how long to warm up. You know your scooter is warmed up when the idle settles. It's an audible difference. Yes, you can chose to not follow these instructions but no one knows these scoots like the manufacturer. Short of shaking spark plug caps loose, I have have 2.5 years and 23K will zero starting problems, no mechanical failures , original battery still strong and zero breakdowns by following manufacturer recommendations. I'm a believer!! You don't have to be.

Mechanically, it does have to do with temperature. In start up temp the engine is running leaner than usual. It needs to heat up to operating temperature for optimal fuel/air ratio.

A fuel injected engine has sensors and computers to determine how much fuel is needed for the optimal fuel/air ratio. Hence why modern cars don't really need to be warmed up via engine idle for more than a few seconds.

[PeteH]

Actually, it's not so much the fuel/air mix that's important as much as it is getting the oil up and circulated. Gently idling the engine for a minute or two gets the oil circulating up from the crankcase into the upper parts of the engine, so that when you put a load on it, all is nicely lubricated.

You can do far more damage with a lack of lubrication than you can running too rich for a few minutes.

So light up the engine, zip your jacket, put on your helmet and gloves, check your headlight and brake light, and by that time, you're ready to roll.

[jijifer]

The OP wanted to know the consequences of not warming up and how long it takes to warm up at various temperatures.

Regardless of the ambient temperature (here and or on venus) your scooter is warmed up when the idle settles. so it's not 'how long' because that does vary based on ambient temperature. I always warm up my scooter and I'm not an idiot. In my experience it's not less than 2 minutes but when it gets colder or the scoot has sat a week, it takes more like 4-5mins for the idle to settle aka "warm up". I don't watch the clock I just wait for the idle to change and I feel it and hear it. I'm estimating the time based on how many songs I can hear before I feel the idle change. A perfect pop song is approximately 2mins long I love perfect indi pop so I get 1-2.5 songs waiting for the vibration to change.

The consequences of not warming up can vary. the worst that will happen is engine failure. That'd be pretty extreme but could potentially happen so consider that the worst case scenario. Other things potentially impacted MPG, and just over all engine life.

Most people don't think about putting 10s of thousands of miles on these scooters. Others won't own it more than a couple of years and may never see the impact of not warming it up. The oldest of these scooters is 5 years old and the most miles recorded is 40k - it was still running at 40K genuine wanted it for display so it remains to be seen what these little scoots can do. Bonegirl, 40k miles did a non-recommended maintenance schedule with no problems. Plenty more people have had all sorts of failures not adhering to recommended maintenance in fewer than 5k miles.

Mostly people, or apparently idiots according to one member, who have a good dealer and follow recommend operation and maintenance have very few problems with the carbureted Buddys. People doing DIY maintenance and ignoring the recommended operating instructions have the most problems 10 (DIY problems) to 1(actual manufacture defect) according Genuine.

SANDWICH TIME!

[k1dude]

Actually, it's not so much the fuel/air mix that's important as much as it is getting the oil up and circulated. Gently idling the engine for a minute or two gets the oil circulating up from the crankcase into the upper parts of the engine, so that when you put a load on it, all is nicely lubricated.

You can do far more damage with a lack of lubrication than you can running too rich for a few minutes.

So light up the engine, zip your jacket, put on your helmet and gloves, check your headlight and brake light, and by that time, you're ready to roll.

Actually it's both. I forgot to mention the oil. But, as with most modern vehicles, oil is distributed quickly and efficiently. As hchoa pointed out, modern vehicles rarely need more than a few seconds to warm up adequately. Now if you live in Minnesota or other very cold climes, then yes, you have to wait.

But whether you let the scooter idle unloaded at 1500 rpm or ride it at 750 rpm at slow speeds, it should make no difference. The load is so small it just doesn't matter. That's why consumer and energy organizations have always recommended driving the vehicle slowly rather than letting it waste gas idling. Consumer Reports recommends it and tests have confirmed no damage is done while driving slow during warm-up. It's been recommended for decades - even before fuel injection was commonplace. This isn't something new.

[KABarash]

I would consider myself a 'Mechanical Moron' and as the resident 'Mechanical Moron' here, I have always and will suggest waiting until the idle smooths out, I've done this for my Honda Met as well as the Buddy. As others above have stated, it is an easily discernible sound. Fire the engine up, put on your gear and you should be ready to go....
My son's Yamaha R6 has a temp gauge he checks to see if it's at 'safe operating temperature'
Conversely, I've never warmed up a car, just get in, start it, adjust my self and/or the heat and off I go......
My Jeep is nearly 18 years old with 215,000 miles, never an issue. Scoot engines are different.

[k1dude]

Mostly people, or apparently idiots according to one member, who have a good dealer and follow recommend operation and maintenance have very few problems with the carbureted Buddys.

I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Your comprehension of what I wrote is incorrect. If you ride WOT immediately after starting the engine, then yes, you are an idiot.

[jijifer]

Mostly people, or apparently idiots according to one member, who have a good dealer and follow recommend operation and maintenance have very few problems with the carbureted Buddys.

I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Your comprehension of what I wrote is incorrect. If you ride WOT immediately after starting the engine, then yes, you are an idiot.

I didn't misread but I appreciate your continued suggestion that I'm not smart

Look at the question and who asked it. The OP has been a member for one week and has no scooter currently. If I recall correctly from his/her original post, he/she has never owned a scooter and is new to this type of vehicle. It's reckless at best to continue to suggest to a new rider that owner's manual is written for idiots and can be ignored.

I try to be helpful and pass along best practices as I know them, especially to novice riders who really need best practices. You won't cause harm by warming up. You could cause harm by not warming up. So best practice: warm up until the idle settles before riding your scooter.

[hchoa]

Actually, it's not so much the fuel/air mix that's important as much as it is getting the oil up and circulated. Gently idling the engine for a minute or two gets the oil circulating up from the crankcase into the upper parts of the engine, so that when you put a load on it, all is nicely lubricated.

You can do far more damage with a lack of lubrication than you can running too rich for a few minutes.

So light up the engine, zip your jacket, put on your helmet and gloves, check your headlight and brake light, and by that time, you're ready to roll.

You're right but again modern lubricants have pretty much taken care of that problem. Nowadays they have a consistent viscosity for a large temperature range. So yeah by the time you put your gear on the scooter will be ready to go.

Here's some more info: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/4213313

[TVB]

Since I actually have one of the engines the original poster was considering, my experience may be helpful. I've ridden by Buddy 50 in temps ranging from sub-freezing to body temperature, had it serviced mostly just before major road trips or when it was running poorly (turned out the spark plug needed to be replaced), don't intentionally wait to let it warm up before riding... and will have 12.5K troublefree-except-for-that-spark-plug miles on it before I hook it up to the Tender Jr in a few weeks, at the end of my third season riding it. I may just be lucky. (If so, it's pretty much the only good luck I've had since 2004.) But it seems to be working pretty well for me. Following the manufacturer's recommendations (if you can decipher them from the manual) is never a bad idea, of course. But it may not be necessary to follow them to the letter.

[teabow1]

I would consider myself a 'Mechanical Moron' and as the resident 'Mechanical Moron' here, I have always and will suggest waiting until the idle smooths out, I've done this for my Honda Met as well as the Buddy. As others above have stated, it is an easily discernible sound. Fire the engine up, put on your gear and you should be ready to go....
My son's Yamaha R6 has a temp gauge he checks to see if it's at 'safe operating temperature'
Conversely, I've never warmed up a car, just get in, start it, adjust my self and/or the heat and off I go......
My Jeep is nearly 18 years old with 215,000 miles, never an issue. Scoot engines are different.

Interesting. I live in an apartment complex and I always get myself ready to go out (zipped up, helmet up for bicycle, etc.) before I go out to unlock the bike. I'd imagine that this would be the same for me with a scooter because it doesn't seem to make much sense to start the scooter unattended in the parking lot and run back into the apartment to put on scooter clothing/gear.

But, if all warming up takes is the time to put on a helmet, then not a problem.

[Ethan Allison]

When it's cold out, I've never felt my autochoke disengage before I actually started riding. A minute of idling seems to be about as effective as riding for 50-100 feet.

[teabow1]

I try to be helpful and pass along best practices as I know them, especially to novice riders who really need best practices. You won't cause harm by warming up. You could cause harm by not warming up. So best practice: warm up until the idle settles before riding your scooter.

Thanks, the tips are helpful! I tend to be a bit conservative with new things so I likely would read the manual from cover to cover (I've always had) and start with conservative practices and then move on to other kinds of practices as I gain experience.

And you're right, I don't own a scooter (never have) so have all sorts of questions about it.

[PeteH]

Yes, modern multi-viscosity oils are a wonderful thing to handle those cold mornings.

My own routine is thus: I go out the front door, open the wrought-iron gate alongside the house, move two patio chairs, open the wooden gate to the back yard where sits my scooter. Engine start, push it off the stand, through the wooden gate, close that gate, up through the wrought-iron gate, close that gate, across the front of the house on a gravel path and down the little driveway-thing to the street. Up on the center stand while I walk back to the front porch to pick up my helmet, bailout bag, jacket, and gloves. Gear up, and by this time the engine's been ticking for several minutes, and the rear wheel is not spinning. I'm good to go.

I can't really rely on sensing the state of my auto-enricher, as I don't get a huge RPM variation between cold and warm, at least not in our toasty midwestern summer months. The only purpose of the auto-enricher ('choke') is to help it start and keep it from stalling right after startup when cold by providing a bit more fuel. Running rich when you first start up, in and of itself, does nothing for your engine. If it don't stall, then it's doing its job. I keep my idle pretty low - just high enough not to stall when cold and not to shake like crazy - no real need to be burning up my clutch running it that much higher.

So for sure my oil's circulated nicely in the morning, and it doesn't stall, so I'm in good shape.

[k1dude]

It's reckless at best to continue to suggest to a new rider that owner's manual is written for idiots and can be ignored.

Once again, please re-read my posts. You are continually putting words in my mouth that were never said nor even implied.

[izark47]

ok My 2 cents worth. I have a 2t stella, and it has a manual choke, I pull it and start it and then ease the idle up a bit until it smooths out and will idle on it's own, when really cold that can mean i have to grab the choke again for a short bit to keep it from stalling. then i wait until the idle smooths out. I do not have the advantage of multi viscosity oil for the engine.

"jijifer wrote:
It's reckless at best to continue to suggest to a new rider that owner's manual is written for idiots and can be ignored."


"k1dude wrote: Once again, please re-read my posts. You are continually putting words in my mouth that were never said nor even implied."

I don't mean to jump in a flame war, but I think both of you are a bit touchy on this. K1dude was trying to bring a different side to the reason for the manual is written the way it is. but I think his assumption is incorrect that just because the lowest common denominator is not familiar with these engines, does not mean they are id10t's, and he was clear about the ones that WOT right after start up are, which in the case of a 2t with a manual choke it is painfully obvious as even WOT it hits it's limit as it starves from not enough fuel is getting to the engine, and just stays well under top rpm. But to be on the safe side and maintain the warranty it makes sense to to follow the manual.

The manual is a a best practice tool, and Jijifer is just enforcing the best practice. I applaud her for that. And from what i read no one is calling people that follow them are id10t's. Both of you are valuable members and have very good points to bring to the table. Now what I'm really trying to say at the risk of offending people is that the pissing match does not seem to be helping anyone, especially your 2 friendships. Step back, and take a deep breath, and I'm sure you will see the same.

[Lostmycage]

Enough bickering.

Jijifer, you're misreading. K1dude, let it go.

Here, shiney:


As to the warm up issue:

Turn it on, ride it; or turn it on and let it run. Neither is really bad, but just riding it normally is best. Letting it sit too long idling isn't good for it. Don't go WOT until it's had a chance to get to temperature or roughly when the auto-choke disengages. These are air cooled engines with really weak stators (your scoots alternator - your battery charger). Idling the engine will not charge the battery once you have lights and any other electrical accessory operating. It's really simple because it's meant to be.

The owner's manual isn't written by or for idiots. It's translated by them. (That's a little harsh, but a lot is lost in translation).

[SuperFlyBuddy]

When it comes down to it there is no way of measuring whether letting the engine warm up helps or not. If you have a problem with your scoot they are never going to say "this was caused by you not letting your scooter warm for X seconds or minutes before riding".

If letting your scoot warm up makes you feel good, do that.

If you think it's a waste of time, don't.

And regarding a "warm up time"; warm up time till what? On an air cooled engine you can only measure normal operating temperature by oil temp and/or cylinder head temp. Until people start measuring those there is no accurate way to know how long it takes for the engine to reach normal operating temperature in any climate.

[k1dude]

And regarding a "warm up time"; warm up time till what?

Until the RPM's drop to normal idle per the manual.

[uncleralph]

On cold mornings (<50 deg) my Honda Met would want to stall at stops. For the first 5 minutes or so of driving, which includes 3 stop signs and 2 lights, I would have give it a little gas when stopped. I am talking about just a twist of a fraction of an inch until slight pressure is felt on the throttle. This got to be second nature and I didn't even think about it. After 5 minutes it went away. It didn't seem to matter how long you let it warm up - it did the same thing on cold mornings.

My fuel injected Honda Elite does not exhibit this symptom. It runs great frm the start regardless of temperature.

Ralph

[LunaP]

Lostmycage: +1 on the manual. And the batman.

[agrogod]

Ok teabow here's how you handle the warm-up. Apartment..check, gear on...check, go to scoot and start...check, proceed to do the SAFETY CHECKS on the scoot (lights,signals,brakes,the overall coolness of the scoot )...check. By the time you do your safety's it should be warmed up enough to ride. The kids were so busy fighting they forgot about the basics.

And always start the scoot while its on the center stand, don't forget.

[BuddyRaton]

Ok teabow here's how you handle the warm-up. Apartment..check, gear on...check, go to scoot and start...check, proceed to do the SAFETY CHECKS on the scoot (lights,signals,brakes,the overall coolness of the scoot )...check. By the time you do your safety's it should be warmed up enough to ride. The kids were so busy fighting they forgot about the basics.

And always start the scoot while its on the center stand, don't forget.

Yep...start it....zip up the jacket....put on helmet....don gloves...good to go.

For Bocette this takes about 20 mins so the Buddy is plenty warm!

[teabow1]

On cold mornings (<50 deg) my Honda Met would want to stall at stops. For the first 5 minutes or so of driving, which includes 3 stop signs and 2 lights, I would have give it a little gas when stopped. I am talking about just a twist of a fraction of an inch until slight pressure is felt on the throttle. This got to be second nature and I didn't even think about it. After 5 minutes it went away. It didn't seem to matter how long you let it warm up - it did the same thing on cold mornings.

My fuel injected Honda Elite does not exhibit this symptom. It runs great frm the start regardless of temperature.

Ralph

So when you twist the throttle just a fraction, is that not enough to begin pushing the scooter forwards? You aren't trying to push back on the scooter with your two feet planted firmly on the ground while you do that fractional twisting, are you? That would be a bit funny.

By the way, what year Metro do you have?

Yes, I hear fuel injected engines don't typically have these weather/temperature issues (unless of course if you live in colder climates of much of Canada where they have ot use heater blocks). But my dealer told me one thing about fuel injected engines: he said those machines cannot be kickstarted and so if your battery is dead, you're out of luck.

[KABarash]

Interesting. I live in an apartment complex and I always get myself ready to go out (zipped up, helmet up for bicycle, etc.) before I go out to unlock the bike. I'd imagine that this would be the same for me with a scooter because it doesn't seem to make much sense to start the scooter unattended in the parking lot and run back into the apartment to put on scooter clothing/gear.

But, if all warming up takes is the time to put on a helmet, then not a problem.

Living in my own house I suppose it does make a difference, by all means don't start the scoot and go back in.
I keep all my gear in the garage with the scoot. Usually I roll the scoot out, start it, put on my jacket, neck warmery thingie (if needed) helmet and gloves, by this time 2-3 minutes, it seems to be ready, if not I wait a bit longer and head out.
I wouldn't think an extra 3-5 minute period of time is any big deal of amount of time to waste, if I'm riding it's a nice day, no biggie being outside a few minutes extra....

[TVB]

And always start the scoot while its on the center stand, don't forget.

If you mean that you shouldn't start the scooter while it's just leaning on its side kickstand, I agree 100%. It's possible for the clutch to engage slightly and nudge the scooter forward, pushing it off the kickstand.

But it isn't the safest way to start a scooter, which is to do so with both wheels and both feet on the ground and your hand on at least the rear brake. Some people have their own routines that they've developed, and as long as they're careful about always having the rear brake engaged when they take it off the center stand (to avoid the chance of a spinning wheel engaging with the pavement) they probably won't have problems. But the start-up procedure in the MSF scooter course handbook says "Wheels: both should be on the ground for safety" (page 19), and I think the arguments for it are sound.

[jijifer]

So when you twist the throttle just a fraction, is that not enough to begin pushing the scooter forwards? You aren't trying to push back on the scooter with your two feet planted firmly on the ground while you do that fractional twisting, are you? That would be a bit funny....

With the electric start - you do not pull the throttle (assuming the scooter is functioning properly). You MUST, however engage a brake for it to work. Sort of a built-in safety step, in case you pulled the throttle

On your centerstand, the rear wheel will not be on the ground without intervention (eg: cargo on the rear of you scoot) There may be some reason you'd push it down , too. if you're pushing it down, just don't grab the throttle while you do.

The torque of the back wheel in idle is not enough to push the bike off the center stand. If you push the scooter down without the throttle engaged, you'll stop the wheel spinning, it's that slow. Only with human error will your scooter come off the centerstand while idling and technically, once you pull that throttle it's no longer "idling".

It's difficult for a lot of folks to get the bike off the centerstand when seated or standing through it. I think taller folks can do it seated easier but standing through it to do it seems like a throttle pull accident waiting to happen!

So you will have to decide how you want to do it. The throttle does engage with just the slightest of twist and surprises new riders frequently. MSFs best practice is to only have the bike "on" when you're seated and able control it should you accidentally pull the throttle. A lot of newbie accidents are throttle pulls. Pulling them reaching for the brake while trying to stop is common one. If you have small hands this is more likely. If you take MSF, they'll teach you to squeeze the brake, not pull it. To keep your wrist high and hover the throttles so a) you have to readjust your hand to go full throttle and b)you're better positioned to squeeze then pull the brake. .

My strategy is not to touch the throttle until I'm ready to ride. I can easily get my scooter off the centerstand and mount it without ever touching the throttle so I have no troubles letting my scooter idle on the centerstand.

[Southerner]

When I read the thread heading, I was going to just dive in.

Then I read through the posts. Migosh folks! Why get personal about this stuff? We're adults (aren't we?). What is it about forums?

FWIW. My 1990-model dual-carbureted, liquid-cooled Honda has a manual choke. I generally turn the switch on (as advised by another PC-owner - to let the fuel pump start up), pull the choke, hit the starter. I can spend a bit futzing with my gear, etc. I normally back the bike out of the shed and usually push in the choke before I get moving. Sometimes if it's cold, I half-idle down my driveway before I turn it off.

I'm no mechanical expert but I agree it's best to let the bike have a bit to let its various liquids circulate. I would think that this would be in order even if a bike (or car) happens to be fuel injected, which pretty much eliminates the choke question.

IF it is, in fact, not really necessary, the short time in question is inconsequential so you might as well be on the safe side. I waste enough time with the glasses/FF helmet swap to cover it anyway.

[babblefish]

And always start the scoot while its on the center stand, don't forget.

If you mean that you shouldn't start the scooter while it's just leaning on its side kickstand, I agree 100%. It's possible for the clutch to engage slightly and nudge the scooter forward, pushing it off the kickstand.

But it isn't the safest way to start a scooter, which is to do so with both wheels and both feet on the ground and your hand on at least the rear brake. Some people have their own routines that they've developed, and as long as they're careful about always having the rear brake engaged when they take it off the center stand (to avoid the chance of a spinning wheel engaging with the pavement) they probably won't have problems. But the start-up procedure in the MSF scooter course handbook says "Wheels: both should be on the ground for safety" (page 19), and I think the arguments for it are sound.

They were thinking motorcycle with a manual clutch when they wrote this. Auto scooters have a centrifical clutch which makes a cold start off the center stand dangerous because the clutch will engage at engine rpms above idle speed. Don't know about yours, but on mine, the rear wheel spins pretty fast during warm-up (when the choke is engaged). I've actually had my scooter pull itself off the sidestand when I had a brain fart and started it off the centerstand. And how would you put on a helmet, gloves, etc. while at the same time holding the rear brake let alone the damage to the centrifical clutch linings by preventing the wheel from spinning?

Anyway, this is one of those things where you ask ten people for an opinion and you'll get ten different answers. I personally let all of my vehicles warm-up a bit before taking off - that's just my opinion, of course.

[AWinn6889]

So when you twist the throttle just a fraction, is that not enough to begin pushing the scooter forwards? You aren't trying to push back on the scooter with your two feet planted firmly on the ground while you do that fractional twisting, are you? That would be a bit funny....

With the electric start - you do not pull the throttle (assuming the scooter is functioning properly). You MUST, however engage a brake for it to work. Sort of a built-in safety step, in case you pulled the throttle

On your centerstand, the rear wheel will not be on the ground without intervention (eg: cargo on the rear of you scoot) There may be some reason you'd push it down , too. if you're pushing it down, just don't grab the throttle while you do.

The torque of the back wheel in idle is not enough to push the bike off the center stand. If you push the scooter down without the throttle engaged, you'll stop the wheel spinning, it's that slow. Only with human error will your scooter come off the centerstand while idling and technically, once you pull that throttle it's no longer "idling".

It's difficult for a lot of folks to get the bike off the centerstand when seated or standing through it. I think taller folks can do it seated easier but standing through it to do it seems like a throttle pull accident waiting to happen!

So you will have to decide how you want to do it. The throttle does engage with just the slightest of twist and surprises new riders frequently. MSFs best practice is to only have the bike "on" when you're seated and able control it should you accidentally pull the throttle. A lot of newbie accidents are throttle pulls. Pulling them reaching for the brake while trying to stop is common one. If you have small hands this is more likely. If you take MSF, they'll teach you to squeeze the brake, not pull it. To keep your wrist high and hover the throttles so a) you have to readjust your hand to go full throttle and b)you're better positioned to squeeze then pull the brake. .

My strategy is not to touch the throttle until I'm ready to ride. I can easily get my scooter off the centerstand and mount it without ever touching the throttle so I have no troubles letting my scooter idle on the centerstand.

I'm pretty sure what UncleRalph was talking about there is that whether he "warms up" the scoot or not, he has to engage the throttle ever so slightly to provide enough fuel for his scooter to remain running/not stall out when he stops at stop signs and lights within the first 5 minutes or so of his ride.
Sorry, but what you started with in this post has nothing to do with how you finished it, and your response just didn't make much sense, and no one ever mentioned "pulling the throttle," not that I saw anyway. Though, you did provide a good point telling the OP how they should/should not take the scooter off the center stand, I guess... with the exception of those instructions from the MSF book that are meant for motorcycles with a clutch, not a CVT scooter. It just wasn't what the OP was asking.

Teabow, to settle the possible confusion here, if you are slightly twisting the throttle at a stop, while seated on your scoot, just enough to bring the revs up to keep it from stalling, it is generally not enough power to move your scooter forward (unless for some reason you have your idle set ridiculously high), so you would NOT have to hold it back if you needed to follow this practice.
Also, my part on warming up. If you are in colder temps it is a good idea, fuel injection or not. If you take off at high revs on a freezing cold engine, you can "break stuff" or cause things to wear at an unnecessarily faster rate.
If I were to do that with my car, I could crack the block, and I know people that have done so and thought afterwards "well that was dumb, should have just let it warm up and been 2 minutes late."
While a scooter is vastly different from a car, the engines in either are relatively similar. I follow the same thing as many others here, start it up, put on gear, head out.
Also, if you have to lock it up, you can still start it while it's locked up and unlock it before you go.. that way you don't have to worry about anyone driving off with your scoot while it's warming up.
If, however, you have it locked up inside of a shed, or hallway, or whatever you may have at your apartment complex, it is not wise to start the engine/release exhaust indoors, but I'm sure that should just be common sense.

[Southerner]

I missed the CVT wrinkle as well. Never owned one.

[TVB]

They were thinking motorcycle with a manual clutch when they wrote this.

Then why is it in the handbook for their scooter-specific course, in text that refers specifically to different kinds of scooters?

And how would you put on a helmet, gloves, etc. while at the same time holding the rear brake let alone the damage to the centrifical clutch linings by preventing the wheel from spinning?

You would do that before getting on and starting the scooter.

Anyway, this is one of those things where you ask ten people for an opinion and you'll get ten different answers.

Of course. And people are free to do it however they wish. I don't do it exactly by the book either.* I'm just reporting what the people who are generally regarded as the safety experts suggest: put on your gear, get on the scooter, take it off the stand, turn on the ignition, hold the rear brake, flip the cut-off switch to run, and push the starter. In that order.

The principle here is that it should not be possible - even through human pratfalls and misjudgment - for the engine to move the scooter until the operator is ready for the scooter to move. Saving "push the start button" for last (just after pulling the brake and flipping the switch to "run") is the lynchpin of that strategy. Pretty common-sense stuff, if you ask me.

*I park my scooter on the porch, so every morning I take it off the center stand and walk it to the driveway before mounting. I also cheat and flip the ignition to "on" just after popping the seat to get my helmet, long before the MSF checklist suggests... trusting that the cut-off switch still makes it damn near impossible to accidentally start the engine with a single slip, no matter how ham-fisted I am.

[TVB]

Teabow, to settle the possible confusion here, if you are slightly twisting the throttle at a stop, while seated on your scoot, just enough to bring the revs up to keep it from stalling, it is generally not enough power to move your scooter forward (unless for some reason you have your idle set ridiculously high), so you would NOT have to hold it back if you needed to follow this practice.

To be safe, however, it is always a good idea to have the brake engaged when you do this, rather than assuming that the engine will never over-rev and the clutch will never engage enough for it to move.

[AWinn6889]

Teabow, to settle the possible confusion here, if you are slightly twisting the throttle at a stop, while seated on your scoot, just enough to bring the revs up to keep it from stalling, it is generally not enough power to move your scooter forward (unless for some reason you have your idle set ridiculously high), so you would NOT have to hold it back if you needed to follow this practice.

To be safe, however, it is always a good idea to have the brake engaged when you do this, rather than assuming that the engine will never over-rev and the clutch will never engage enough for it to move.

Yes, forgot to add that point, thanks.

[siobhan]

So when you twist the throttle just a fraction, is that not enough to begin pushing the scooter forwards? You aren't trying to push back on the scooter with your two feet planted firmly on the ground while you do that fractional twisting, are you? That would be a bit funny.

The CVT doesn't grab with a very slight opening of the throttle (at least mine doesn't). So you can give it a little gas without the auto-clutch engaging (the scoot doesn't want to jump forward). I'm assuming this is normal but the Met and Buddy were the only autos I owned (while except the Elite but it's old and behaves in its own odd way) so maybe I don't have thing set up properly.

You really need to get out there and ride a few. All will be revealed.

[jijifer]

You really need to get out there and ride a few. All will be revealed.

And this is the best advice!

ah... i see you moved from cali to NC. I have no idea what NC motorcycle requirements are.

[viney266]

I always start my Buddy up, then gear-up. By the time I'm geared-up the Buddy is warmed-up.

At times when I gear-up faster than the warm-up, I jump on the Buddy and keep it under 25 through the parking lot or neighborhood until it's fully warm.

^^^^ Thats the easy way and what I do a well...In the summer I might let a bike warm for 30 seconds ( oil flowing) in the winter the 2-3 minutes it takes me to get my gear on is sufficient, and as others here, I don't go wfo till its good and warm

A few bikes are exceptions to this, such as modern aluminum cylinder Harleys, but most bikes and scoots are fine as long a the oil is flowing to all the right bits

[JHScoot]

i used to let the scoots warm up a bit but in colder weather it meant a stall or two sometimes unless i stood by and eased the throttle a bit. and once the choke disengaged a drop in rpm that meant perhaps another stall

so now as soon as the scoots start i wait 10 secs for the oil to circulate then gently start to move. as someone else posted, 25mph down some neighborhood streets before i head out onto the avenues and i am fine

sometimes if real cold they might be somewhat sputtery still at standing starts, but finessing the throttle prevents any stalls