New type of motorcycle/scooter battery

[babblefish]

While at the motorcycle show, I ran across these new types of batteries that are less than half the weight of the lead acid type, are about half the size for a given amp-hour rating, can last two to four times longer and is not affected by extreme temperatures. They use lithium-iron cells and can directly replace your standard lead acid battery. When I first picked one up, I thought it was just an empty housing for display only, but the guy said it was a complete functional battery. Amazingly light! The only possible downside is that they cost about 50% more. But, if they last twice as long and won't let you down when it's 20 degrees out or 100 degrees out, then they're worth it, in my opinion. I'm very familiar with Lithium-iron batteries due to my job. I made a test pack a while back using a relative to these called Lithium-polymer to try out in my scooter and it starts it with authority! Even though the measured voltage was the same as the standard lead acid, it started the engine as if I was using a 16 volt battery. Oh, and the pack I made-up was just a bit bigger than a pack of cigarettes - the power density of these types of cells is amazing. For those of you who store your scooter for months at a time during the winter months (you poor souls!), these batteries will hold their charge for at least a year without needing to be recharged. Best of all, they're environmentally friendly because they don't have anything environmentally toxic in them. When they finally die, just make sure they're fully discharged and throw them in the trash.



To give you an idea of their size, that's a standard sized business card in the picture. The smaller of the two is rated for 7aH. I think the standard Buddy battery is 6aH. The bigger one is 14aH and I think it would drop right into my Blur's battery box.

And no, I don't have stock in the company. I just really like these types of batteries and think they will solve a lot of people's battery issues.

www.shoraipower.com

[TVB]

Best of all, they're environmentally friendly because they don't have anything environmentally toxic in them. When they finally die, just make sure they're fully discharged and throw them in the trash.

I don't know about environmental impact, but I know that lithium is somewhat scarce compared to the demand, so recycling them would still be a good idea.

[teabow1]

I have not heard of lithium ion not being temperature sensitive. Also
Have never heard of a battery that can safely thrown away in regular trash. I'm very doubtful.

------
I see, lithium IRON. Never heard of that kind before.

[Lotrat]

I have not heard of lithium ion not being temperature sensitive. Also
Have never heard of a battery that can safely thrown away in regular trash. I'm very doubtful.

From the Shorai FAQ
Q. Can Shorai LFX be fully discharged and then disposed in regular garbage?
A.That depends on your municipal regulations. Shorai LFX meet the European RoHS standards for environmental health, and contain no lead. Check with your local authority to see if LiFePO4 batteries are allowed. If so, fully discharge the battery before disposal, using a 12V light bulb until no longer lit, for example. We expect that there will also be recycling available in some locations, and more coming in the years ahead.

California requires that all battery chemistry types be recycled. Many others require that you recycle lithium-ion batteries. A Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery would fall in that category.

50% more? Nah. Shorai is at least $100 bucks. I can get a lead acid for $20. You do the math and let me know if the shinny bells and whistles are worth the extra cost.

[jrsjr]

I made a test pack a while back using a relative to these called Lithium-polymer to try out in my scooter and it starts it with authority! ... the pack I made-up was just a bit bigger than a pack of cigarettes.

That's cool! Thinking about LunaP's recent battery theft, I'm wishing it were possible to hide that battery pack somewhere and leave some "dummy" wires in the empty battery box to fool would-be thieves into thinking that a scooter's battery had already been stolen. Imagine their surprise when they see you walk up and use the electric start on a scooter with an empty battery box!

[Southerner]

They'll just know to look harder next time. There's nothing more ingenious than a thief. If they put all that misspent energy into something good, the world would be a safe, happy place.

I have a cheap Yuasa battery in my MC that has been working well for over 5 years now. As long as it doesn't go dead while I'm on the road, I'll just get another from Wally-World when I need it. I do agree that these new batteries are the right way to go, though. All they need to do is bring the price down.

[babblefish]

I made a test pack a while back using a relative to these called Lithium-polymer to try out in my scooter and it starts it with authority! ... the pack I made-up was just a bit bigger than a pack of cigarettes.

That's cool! Thinking about LunaP's recent battery theft, I'm wishing it were possible to hide that battery pack somewhere and leave some "dummy" wires in the empty battery box to fool would-be thieves into thinking that a scooter's battery had already been stolen. Imagine their surprise when they see you walk up and use the electric start on a scooter with an empty battery box!

At the time I did this, my main battery (lead acid) was giving me problems and I didn't have the $80 to go buy a new one at Sears. I carried the LiPo battery pack in my pocket as an emergency backup in case the main battery wouldn't start the engine. I had a matching connector on it to mate with the Battery Tender connector that was already on the scoot. Worked good enough that I'm going to make a permanent pack with more cells to increase the amp-hour rating and modify the scoots charging circuit for the Lithium battery. I figure I'll get twice the stock amp-hours with a battery that's half the size and 1/3 the weight of the stock lead weight.

[gt1000]

I have not heard of lithium ion not being temperature sensitive

I think the key is that LI's are less sensitive to extremes in temperature. My Spot Messenger specifically recommends LI's for their products and says they're good between temps (going from memory here so I could be off a tad) of -20F to over 120F. LI's are good for 3 months of service in those sorts of extremes while standard lead acids are pretty bad. That's fairly important if you're way off the grid.

Shorais have been around for a bit and they're highly spoken of in the moto world. The weight savings alone is worth the price premium, IMO, although perhaps not in the scooter world.

[Lil Buddy]

Best of all, they're environmentally friendly because they don't have anything environmentally toxic in them. When they finally die, just make sure they're fully discharged and throw them in the trash.

They might not be toxic but they should never be thrown in the trash due to the risk of catching fire. Even a "discharged" battery can spark a fire. I work at a Recycle/Haz Waste facility. We go to great lenghts to insure batteries of all types are properly disposed of.

I've seen lithium motorcycle/scooter batteries before. And which each time, I'm more and more interested........

[babblefish]

Best of all, they're environmentally friendly because they don't have anything environmentally toxic in them. When they finally die, just make sure they're fully discharged and throw them in the trash.

They might not be toxic but they should never be thrown in the trash due to the risk of catching fire. Even a "discharged" battery can spark a fire. I work at a Recycle/Haz Waste facility. We go to great lenghts to insure batteries of all types are properly disposed of.

I've seen lithium motorcycle/scooter batteries before. And which each time, I'm more and more interested........

I'm in agreement that they shouldn't be just thrown in the trash. I was just quoting their specs. As far as fire from a fully discharged lithium battery, my own experience has been that I've never seen it happen though you probably have more experience with lithium batteries than I since they're used in cell phones and laptops of which I imagine a lot of people unknowingly just throw in with their trash.

[CROSSBOLT]

Thanks, babblefish! Great info! I kinda agree with recycling ANY spent battery. I am more intrigued with making my own with LI cells like you did since Shoi wants about 150 bucks for one of theirs. I might try a bunch of Nicads if I can find a pile of them.

Karl

[Southerner]

I guess there must be a lot of differences between certain types of Lithium Ion batteries. I've only ever had them in small electronics but in some devices, they last a long time and even when not being actively used, hold a charge well. In others, notably the rechargeable D and AA-sized batteries, plus some removeable batteries for small power tools, they work great if you charge them and use them up soon after, but the charge will quickly deteriorate if you don't use them right away.

For example, I've had Palm handheld that would hold a charge for a month or more. I've got an Olympus camera that does well in this regard, too.

There's no way to know what kind you're going to get.

[Ethan Allison]

From what I can tell, regular lithium-ion batteries are made with cobalt sprinkles, and these are made with iron sprinkles (like the Evolve scooters that may or may not exist)

[TVB]

Mmmmm..... sprinkles.....

[2wheelNsanity]

Holly cow!!!!!! Those batteries are mega expensive the web site lists msrp as $153.95. I just googled the priced the YTX4L-BS battery and there was alot a variation depending on the brand with the lowest being $25 and the highest $70. So my question would be is that battery 2 to 7 times bettery than the others? Is it going to last longer?

[babblefish]

Holly cow!!!!!! Those batteries are mega expensive the web site lists msrp as $153.95. I just googled the priced the YTX4L-BS battery and there was alot a variation depending on the brand with the lowest being $25 and the highest $70. So my question would be is that battery 2 to 7 times bettery than the others? Is it going to last longer?

New technology is always going to be expensive. I remember VCR decks selling for $2,500 when they first appeared on the market. Anyway, I paid about $70 for the standard lead battery at Sears for my scoot, so double that price for a battery that could potentially last 4 times longer, offers higher cranking speeds, can tolerate a wider range of temperatures, can sit for a year without needing a recharge and is 1/3 the weight seems reasonable to me.

[2wheelNsanity]

I'm new to scooters so how long does a regular battery last? If this new battery is that much better then awesome, but its going to be hard to tell the wife I need $100+ for a battery when my car battery only cost $50 and it has lasted 7 years.

[Lotrat]

On a race bike where every ounce shaved off counts, and price is no issue, then it makes alot of sense. Toy scoot? Not so much.

[babblefish]

On a race bike where every ounce shaved off counts, and price is no issue, then it makes alot of sense. Toy scoot? Not so much.

Don't take this in the wrong way Lotrat, but that one statement/perception is what keeps scooters from becoming mainstream in the U.S.. In other parts of the world scooters are not "toys", rather an economical means of transportation and for some, the only means of transportation (other than their feet ). There are many on the MB board (you know who you are!) that use a scooter as their only means of transportation. And that's all I have to say about that.

[Lotrat]

On a race bike where every ounce shaved off counts, and price is no issue, then it makes alot of sense. Toy scoot? Not so much.

Don't take this in the wrong way Lotrat, but that one statement/perception is what keeps scooters from becoming mainstream in the U.S...

All my vehicles are toys to me and none are mainstream.

My point was that even a serious scooter commuter doesn't "need" a lighter battery. Getting to your destination a few tenths of a second won't matter.

[Southerner]

In this country, practically all forms of 2-wheeled transportation are considered toys, or, to use the current term, "powersports." I suspect that the proportion of us who consider them basic transportation is statistically insignificant.

Myself, I tend to focus on a time long before my birth when our British brethren went forth to work every day on a 500cc single, probably with a sidecar.

On a race bike where every ounce shaved off counts, and price is no issue, then it makes alot of sense. Toy scoot? Not so much.

Don't take this in the wrong way Lotrat, but that one statement/perception is what keeps scooters from becoming mainstream in the U.S...

All my vehicles are toys to me and none are mainstream.

My point was that even a serious scooter commuter doesn't "need" a lighter battery. Getting to your destination a few tenths of a second won't matter.

Tell that to the sportbike freaks who spend $600 & up to trashcan their stock pipes and replace them with something sheathed with carbon fiber. Might save 15 pounds tops but it makes the look "serious."

What's the good of buying an expensive battery since nobody can see it?