Oil change

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:55 am

I have started to change my oil 2 times on my buddy. First time, I try loosening the drain plug with a 17mm socket. How in the F am I gonna get that in there? I need a 17mm socket wrench. CHECK. Got that.(I have torque wrench with the socket needed, 17mm and 21mm. Next try. How the F am I gonna get to the oil filter with my socket wrench w/out having a lift? Gotta get a 21mm socket wrench for it. I wanted to torque both, but Im handy. Only thing I can get to easy is the drain plug. Im gonna have to get a 21mm socket wrench tomorrow. BTW I have all the right fluids and such. Am I a neanderthal? Id like to take both the center and side stands off and do this all on a lift. It would be easy!

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:06 am

Once you have the proper sockets (17 & 21mm), it's really not that bad. You might want a short extension to get to the oil filter socket head, I can't remember.

I did mine most recently by lying on the ground. No big deal, really, unless you're well-equipped-enough to own a lift/table.

Better to spend the few extra $$ on a 'real' Piaggio oil filter with the 21mm bolt head on top, rather than the generic slotted filters, which will require a specialized socket to remove/tighten. You can get a couple of nifty star-shaped tools from ScootMoto (http://scootmoto.com/home.php?cat=261 ), but if you're going to use a torque wrench, you've gotta get the special socket for these filters. Easiest to use the Piaggios and 21mm standard hex socket.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:26 am

Petey boy thanks. I got 2 of the hex-head piaggio filters from scooterworks. Got candy and two shammys too. Im just a bit nervous about over tightening. Ive done this one cars alot. With the oil drain bolt and the filter Im gonna go both socket wrench. I Know when Its tight enough. If my oil spills out, I promise Genuine I wont try to recoup $! I WILL use the torque on the oil drain plug because its the one I can get to. I use Motul 7100 15w40..Fully synth. My first oil change was with some synth my dealer had, at about 500 miles. Its at 2900 now. Thats a bit over, but its synth no? I always warm the engine up, baby it. I NEED A LIFT. Maybe I can get in good with a shop and fool around, who knows? I really like wrenching at this low level, and Ive always thought of taking a small engine course at the local C College. Your thought please?

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:44 am

Torque the filter to 12 lb-ft. This number comes from Genuine's first-service dealer video. Pics in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=19985

Depending on the size of the head on your torque wrench, you may need a shallow 21mm socket. You need to tighten these filters more than finger-tight because the rubber gasket has a donut-shaped round profile rather than the flat-faced gasket found on most car filters. It takes more torque to mash the gasket down and get a tight seal.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:06 am

What I need is a shallow socket dammit. I little bit more room and I think Ive got it. Shallow 21mm socket. This is getting $.

Edit-Pete Im done for the night. If you have ANY suggestions keep blowing up this thread PLEASE.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:34 am

Does the center stand interfere with the flow of use oil as it is drained? I rigged a couple hooks and nylon rope in the ceiling of my garage and would hold the scoot upright by the grips. Worked great. Lock the steering and cross the ropes; the scoot was tight as a drum.

agrogod · Post by **agrogod** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:55 am

Its discussion's like this that make me glad I have a 2T.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:53 pm

Yeah, but you've got gearbox oil, dontcha?

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:10 pm

agrogod wrote:Its discussion's like this that make me glad I have a 2T.

Shut the hell up.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:13 pm

Syd wrote:Does the center stand interfere with the flow of use oil as it is drained? I rigged a couple hooks and nylon rope in the ceiling of my garage and would hold the scoot upright by the grips. Worked great. Lock the steering and cross the ropes; the scoot was tight as a drum.

Yes! Thats a great idea. I really didnt think this was gonna be hard! I guess after the first time it becomes easier. I just REFUSE to pay what the dealer wants for an oil change.(gear and motor oil change a lil over $100)

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:44 pm

Raiderfn311 wrote:
Syd wrote:Does the center stand interfere with the flow of use oil as it is drained? I rigged a couple hooks and nylon rope in the ceiling of my garage and would hold the scoot upright by the grips. Worked great. Lock the steering and cross the ropes; the scoot was tight as a drum.
Yes! Thats a great idea. I really didnt think this was gonna be hard! I guess after the first time it becomes easier. I just REFUSE to pay what the dealer wants for an oil change.(gear and motor oil change a lil over $100)

your dealer charges you $100?!! are you sure it's just an oil change they are performing? Dealers should charge in 15mins increments and an oil change takes 15 mins.

IMO you went to synthetic way too soon but hindsight is 20/20. These engines aren't fully running optimal until about 2k, at least1.5k miles. Until it's optimal on air-cooled engines, dino is what I've been told is best for engine life.

That said, first services, 500miles services aren't JUST oil changes and yes, cost more. Oil changes will be about $40 in my experience. If the shop has to open a bottle of oil for you, it's a tad more but you get the bottle with what's left. My shop has oil on-tap so it's cheaper.

Anyways, be aware that oil filters seems to be the #1 screw up of DIY. Too tight or too loose they spin off and engines seize. If your bike is new and you screw this up, Genuine won't *have* to cover your warranty doesn't mean they wont but not having a lift, not trusting the torque wrench and knowing that forgetting the little filter screen or not properly installing the filter will kill my scooter makes it worth every penny to have the shop change my oil.

But in NO WAY should a shop charge $100 for an oil change. At 500 miles that's "first services" where valves are adjusted, carbs are checked, cables tightened, etc. It's a complete check, not just an oil change and thus the labor is more.

SoCalScooter · Post by **SoCalScooter** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:48 pm

Raiderfn311 wrote:
Syd wrote:Does the center stand interfere with the flow of use oil as it is drained? I rigged a couple hooks and nylon rope in the ceiling of my garage and would hold the scoot upright by the grips. Worked great. Lock the steering and cross the ropes; the scoot was tight as a drum.
Yes! Thats a great idea. I really didnt think this was gonna be hard! I guess after the first time it becomes easier. I just REFUSE to pay what the dealer wants for an oil change.(gear and motor oil change a lil over $100)

I'm an accountant, not a mechanic, and I've never done car or bike maintenance before - but after reading the forum posts, and buying the proper tools, I did not find it *Overly* difficult to change the oil on my Italia 150 or the Black Jack 150. I read up and got the proper tools - box/open metric wrench set from 7mm to 21mm; Metric sockets of the same size, a torque wrench (light duty so I could hit 12 lbs/ft) and the hex-head oil filters from Scooterworks (about $10/per filter).

The oil filter on the 150 is in a different location than on the 125 (the 125 has a great oil-change post in MB's technical guide section). So I purchased a "Deep Drive" 21mm socket, which did not fit. I ended up using the 21mm box wrench to take off and reinstall the oil filters instead.
I could not use the torque wrench on the filter, but every weekend since I've gone out to check the tightness of the filters and have not seen them loosen from "wrist-tight" at all. The engine and gear oil drain plugs were fairly accessible and easy to remove/replace. I did use two funnels, one for filling and one for draining.

I did it all sitting down on the ground, in my parking spot at my apartment complex. The biggest trouble I had was that it started raining during the Italia oil change, so I had to stop and finish the next morning.
The Italia took me maybe an hour and a half - it was the first oil change I'd ever completed, plus rain delay. The black jack was done in 30 minutes or so.

Sit on a towel, use a lint-free cloth to wipe out the oil filter connection area before you install the new one. I found shaking the bike a little bit to help get the oil to drain - just be careful not to knock your funnel into the drain pain (I did this like 4 times). Bring a few old rags or socks to wipe your hands on, and you should be good to go.

dsmith65 · Post by **dsmith65** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:15 pm

One thing I've done on the last few changes because I don't have a short socket, is to approach it from the right side of the scooter. I lie on the ground and have more room for wiggling the torque wrench around from that side. Once it is finger loose, I go back to the left side.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:08 pm

As noted in another thread, if you can't find a shallow socket off-the-shelf, you can cut down a 21mm socket with a hacksaw or a rotary cutoff tool, cutting it down to shallow depth.

easy · Post by **easy** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:05 pm

I use a sharpie and make a mark on drain plug and lip of oil so I tell with a quick lool if they loosen up

agrogod · Post by **agrogod** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:27 pm

PeteH wrote:Yeah, but you've got gearbox oil, dontcha?

Yes this is true. But so much easier to change.

Raiderfn311 wrote:Shut the hell up.

Dude that's rough, don't disparage the 2T.

Phil P · Post by **Phil P** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:39 pm

Help me out here guys, I'm almost 70 so hurmor me a little. I have a
150 Buddy and will be changing oil filter & oil in the spring. I have the
oil filters which take the 21mm socket, and I have a 3/8 drive & socket.
Which side, muffler side or the other do I get access to the filter? What's
the easiest way for me? I can't stay on my knees very long at a time,
but I can lay down. Thank You and a Merry Christmas.
Phil

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:50 am

Phil P wrote:Help me out here guys, I'm almost 70 so hurmor me a little. I have a
150 Buddy and will be changing oil filter & oil in the spring. I have the
oil filters which take the 21mm socket, and I have a 3/8 drive & socket.
Which side, muffler side or the other do I get access to the filter? What's
the easiest way for me? I can't stay on my knees very long at a time,
but I can lay down. Thank You and a Merry Christmas.
Phil

Im taking a Colt 45 and cold wrench.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:25 am

jijifer wrote:
Raiderfn311 wrote:
Syd wrote:Does the center stand interfere with the flow of use oil as it is drained? I rigged a couple hooks and nylon rope in the ceiling of my garage and would hold the scoot upright by the grips. Worked great. Lock the steering and cross the ropes; the scoot was tight as a drum.
Yes! Thats a great idea. I really didnt think this was gonna be hard! I guess after the first time it becomes easier. I just REFUSE to pay what the dealer wants for an oil change.(gear and motor oil change a lil over $100)
your dealer charges you $100?!! are you sure it's just an oil change they are performing? Dealers should charge in 15mins increments and an oil change takes 15 mins.

IMO you went to synthetic way too soon but hindsight is 20/20. These engines aren't fully running optimal until about 2k, at least1.5k miles. Until it's optimal on air-cooled engines, dino is what I've been told is best for engine life.

That said, first services, 500miles services aren't JUST oil changes and yes, cost more. Oil changes will be about $40 in my experience. If the shop has to open a bottle of oil for you, it's a tad more but you get the bottle with what's left. My shop has oil on-tap so it's cheaper.

Anyways, be aware that oil filters seems to be the #1 screw up of DIY. Too tight or too loose they spin off and engines seize. If your bike is new and you screw this up, Genuine won't *have* to cover your warranty doesn't mean they wont but not having a lift, not trusting the torque wrench and knowing that forgetting the little filter screen or not properly installing the filter will kill my scooter makes it worth every penny to have the shop change my oil.

But in NO WAY should a shop charge $100 for an oil change. At 500 miles that's "first services" where valves are adjusted, carbs are checked, cables tightened, etc. It's a complete check, not just an oil change and thus the labor is more.

Its a Vespa dealer. Enough said.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:48 am

Phil P wrote:Help me out here guys, I'm almost 70 so hurmor me a little. I have a
150 Buddy and will be changing oil filter & oil in the spring. I have the
oil filters which take the 21mm socket, and I have a 3/8 drive & socket.
Which side, muffler side or the other do I get access to the filter? What's
the easiest way for me? I can't stay on my knees very long at a time,
but I can lay down. Thank You and a Merry Christmas.
Phil

Driver's... err, kickstarter side. The filter on the 150 is up in the box alongside the oil cooler, just astern of the battery box. I laid down on a blanket to get at the drain bolt, screen filter bolt, and oil fiilter.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:09 pm

PeteH wrote:
Phil P wrote:Help me out here guys, I'm almost 70 so hurmor me a little. I have a
150 Buddy and will be changing oil filter & oil in the spring. I have the
oil filters which take the 21mm socket, and I have a 3/8 drive & socket.
Which side, muffler side or the other do I get access to the filter? What's
the easiest way for me? I can't stay on my knees very long at a time,
but I can lay down. Thank You and a Merry Christmas.
Phil
Driver's... err, kickstarter side. The filter on the 150 is up in the box alongside the oil cooler, just astern of the battery box. I laid down on a blanket to get at the drain bolt, screen filter bolt, and oil fiilter.

Filter, drain plug, drain filter.

WTF? Im gonna take care of my stuff as always.

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:04 pm

We changed the engine oil on my 170, just want to say thanks to Raider- if I hadn't read the beginning of this thread and known which size sockets needed ahead of time, there would have been a LOT of swearing involved.

Now we need to do the gear oil... what do you all use for gear oil? I'm at 2300 so no prob doing synthetic now.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:00 am

As an added question, are you supposed to be changing the little screen that fits into the spring of the oil drain plug?
My shop didn't mention it to me and I almost closed it up without realizing that it had fallen out and needed to go back in there.
I hope it's fine to reuse it because that would mean putting in a whole new bottle of oil

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:35 am

Very similar to other small motors (and old VWs). The screen should be cleaned - I swish it in a little gasoline in a juice glass.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:52 pm

OK Ive justed done the oil change. A bit messy but all in all not too hard. The drain plug seems to be the hardest to get at. The ONLY thing that I could get to with the torque wrench was the oil screen plug. I did it to 14lbs. The filter and drain plug had to be hand tightened. I KNOW I will catch hell on this one, but I'll promise if it goes horribly wrong Ill let all know. The oil was at almost 2500 which Is a bit long but oh well. It was also pretty dang dark, but Ive changed oil that was much worse. I will keep an extra close eye on leakage and loosening. Thank you all for listening and giving advice. Happy Scootering!

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:52 pm

PeteH wrote:Very similar to other small motors (and old VWs). The screen should be cleaned - I swish it in a little gasoline in a juice glass.

My screen was pretty spotless BTW.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:46 pm

As I was leaving work today(got let out very early

)I saw a silver dollar size oil spot under my scoot. First reaction-"OH SHIT". Upon VERY close inspection I figured it out. For shits and giggles I idled it a few minutes then checked the oil. Exact amount I was expecting. Verdict was this-Where I park it at home, in the garage, it is perfectly level. At work it is not. The oil leak was from when I removed the old filter and it puked out oil on the inside of the cover. It is now parked in the garage(level) and I will continue to look for leaks of course. I'll spray the area down good with some degreaser when I wash her next. I'll sure to scrub all the right places.

bilyum · Post by **bilyum** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:04 pm

Just do it!
Just do it!
(I KNOW i CAN, I KNOW I CAN, I Thought I COULD?)

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:00 pm

bilyum wrote:Just do it!
Just do it!
(I KNOW i CAN, I KNOW I CAN, I Thought I COULD?)

I Cant go grabasstic on this. It's done.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:03 am

Raiderfn311 wrote:As I was leaving work today(got let out very early )I saw a silver dollar size oil spot under my scoot. First reaction-"OH SHIT". Upon VERY close inspection I figured it out. For shits and giggles I idled it a few minutes then checked the oil. Exact amount I was expecting. Verdict was this-Where I park it at home, in the garage, it is perfectly level. At work it is not. The oil leak was from when I removed the old filter and it puked out oil on the inside of the cover. It is now parked in the garage(level) and I will continue to look for leaks of course. I'll spray the area down good with some degreaser when I wash her next. I'll sure to scrub all the right places.

I always use some paper towels in the heat shield to try to mop up all of the oil that inevitably spills in there. I can get it pretty clean this way and avoid any dripping scares.

iMoses · Post by **iMoses** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:50 am

Phil P wrote:Help me out here guys, I'm almost 70 so hurmor me a little. I have a
150 Buddy and will be changing oil filter & oil in the spring. I have the
oil filters which take the 21mm socket, and I have a 3/8 drive & socket.
Which side, muffler side or the other do I get access to the filter? What's
the easiest way for me? I can't stay on my knees very long at a time,
but I can lay down. Thank You and a Merry Christmas.
Phil

When I replace my filter, I always just lay down (side opposite the muffler), easier for me to get leverage that way.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:57 am

The local shop sells an extended plan of course, for many dollars.

The 1st service is $160. They claimed each interval was the same, but I'd honestly be more inclined to purchase my own tools and do the oil changes myself in the alley. It seems like an awful lot, but perhaps they were trying to slide me into the service plan.

It also claims no labor and 10% off parts. I think I'll ask if that includes at the nearly 3 year mark if I show up and say "new tires and breaks please..." Then it might be worth it. I have a feeling they might frown on that though.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:47 am

skully93 wrote:The local shop sells an extended plan of course, for many dollars.

The 1st service is $160. They claimed each interval was the same, but I'd honestly be more inclined to purchase my own tools and do the oil changes myself in the alley. It seems like an awful lot, but perhaps they were trying to slide me into the service plan.

It also claims no labor and 10% off parts. I think I'll ask if that includes at the nearly 3 year mark if I show up and say "new tires and breaks please..." Then it might be worth it. I have a feeling they might frown on that though.

Well the first service must be done by a proffesional or it voids the warranty. After that I say do what I did and save at least %50.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:55 am

yeah and thing is if they are going "by the book" a lot will be "inspections" and what not. so, that could be part of the "service" which may include nominal stuff and then they say "well you need this and that" which isn't part of the service. sort of like a glorified oil change

so i would just clear all that up if it were me. i mean at the 10,000m service when it needs a belt, rollers, clutch work, brakes, a filter or two and a couple tires mounted, is that all going to be $160?

seems diy oil changes and what not and a periodic inspection for what the scoot really NEEDS would be more of a time and money saver. but who knows?

Modern Buddy

Oil change

Oil change

oil change

Re: oil change