Concerns and objections from family and friends.

Discussion of Genuine Scooters and Anything Scooter Related

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JHScoot
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Post by JHScoot »

scootavaran wrote:Ive known people who stayed away from motorcycles for safety reasons but then die in car accidents.

I knew someone who survived a really bad car wreck but died from cancer.

I had a uncle who raced motorcycles and was someone who flew a huge C13O aircraft just 20ft from the ground for spec op in the airforce but died during a routin test flight.

Moral to my rant? You can't chose how you die but you can chose how you live.
true

i was acquainted with a woman around 20 years ago who moved from L.A. to Medford, Oregon because she said L.A was too dangerous and she feared for her safety / life sometimes

two weeks after she moved she was hit by a drunk driver rolling though an intersection on a red light. she died instantly

oh wells...
Riding is riding
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ericalm
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Post by ericalm »

scootavaran wrote:Moral to my rant? You can't chose how you die but you can chose how you live.
Choose how you want to live is good advice.

But…

While engaging in risky behaviors doesn't preclude death or injury by other means, it certainly increases your chances of getting killed or hurt prematurely from unnatural causes. This is the one unavoidable truth: You are consciously increasing your risks regardless of benefits or whatever rationale you have for doing so.

I often read statements such as, "Well, you could get killed anytime anyway so you might as well [engage in some risky behavior]." That's some seriously flawed logic. You don't play i traffic because you might die of cancer or a meteorite hitting you in the head or whatever. It's analogous to saying, "Some random event could kill me before cancer does, so I might as well smoke three packs of Luckys a day."

We all make a conscious decision to undertake a behavior that is more risky than alternatives. Doesn't mean you can't die in a car crash, just that you're less likely to than in a scooter/motorcycle crash.
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JHScoot
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Post by JHScoot »

1. Heart Disease
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 5
2. Cancer
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 7
3. Stroke
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 24
4. Motor Vehicle Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 84
5. Suicide
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 119
6. Falling
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 218
7. Firearm Assault
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 314
8. Pedestrian Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 626
9. Drowning
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 1,008
10. Motorcycle Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 1,020
Riding is riding
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Post by Lotrat »

See... Scooters didn't even make the list!
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ericalm
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Post by ericalm »

JHScoot wrote:1. Heart Disease
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 5
2. Cancer
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 7
3. Stroke
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 24
4. Motor Vehicle Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 84
5. Suicide
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 119
6. Falling
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 218
7. Firearm Assault
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 314
8. Pedestrian Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 626
9. Drowning
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 1,008
10. Motorcycle Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 1,020
These are the odds among the general population, not people who actually, regularly ride motorcycles. Your odds increase greatly when you actually do it every day. And they go up again when you ride at certain times of the day, such as rush hour.

As the National Safety Council report from which this is taken states:
The odds are statistical averages taken from the whole U.S. population. These odds do not necessarily reflect the chances of death for a particular person from a particular external cause.

Any individual's odds of dying from various external causes are affected by the activities in which they participate, where they live and drive, what kind of work they do, and other factors.
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Post by jrsjr »

ericalm wrote:
JHScoot wrote:1. Heart Disease
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 5
2. Cancer
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 7
3. Stroke
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 24
4. Motor Vehicle Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 84
5. Suicide
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 119
6. Falling
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 218
7. Firearm Assault
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 314
8. Pedestrian Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 626
9. Drowning
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 1,008
10. Motorcycle Accident
Lifetime Odds: 1 in 1,020
These are the odds among the general population, not people who actually, regularly ride motorcycles. Your odds increase greatly when you actually do it every day. And they go up again when you ride at certain times of the day, such as rush hour.

As the National Safety Council report from which this is taken states:
The odds are statistical averages taken from the whole U.S. population. These odds do not necessarily reflect the chances of death for a particular person from a particular external cause.

Any individual's odds of dying from various external causes are affected by the activities in which they participate, where they live and drive, what kind of work they do, and other factors.
What are the actual odds? Does anybody know?
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Post by ericalm »

NHTSA stats from 2001:
There were 33.38 fatalities per each 100 million miles of travel on a motorcycle while there were only 1.28 fatalities per each 100 million miles of passenger car travel. That argues that you are TWENTY-SIX times more likely to get killed riding a motorcycle than you are when riding in a car.

There were 632 injuries for each 100 million miles of motorcycle travel while there were only 122 injuries for each 100 million miles of passenger car travel. Meaning it is FIVE times as likely that you will get injured riding a motorcycle than riding a car.
74,000 motorcycles were involved in an accident in the year 2001 which is only 1.5% of all registered motorcycles while there were 6,705,000 passenger cars involved in an accident in the same year which is an astonishingly large 5%. That means that the odds of your motorcycle being involved in an accident is SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER than your car being in an accident while the odds are overwhelming that if you are involved in an accident on your bike it will be catastrophic in comparison to what would happen if you were in a car.
(Source: http://www.msgroup.org/tip.aspx?num=170)

Newer stats, from Wikipedia:
According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles.[1] Motorcycles also have a higher fatality rate per unit of distance travelled when compared with automobiles. Per vehicle mile traveled, motorcyclists' risk of a fatal crash is 35 times greater than a passenger car.[1] In 2004, figures from the UK Department for Transport indicated that motorcycles have 16 times the rate of serious injuries per 100 million vehicle kilometers compared to cars, and double the rate of bicycles.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety

Fatality rates have actually been rising, too. More motorcyclists, more newbies on the road, more states repealing or relaxing helmet laws.

Here's a good one:
For example, approximately 80 percent of reported motorcycle crashes result in injury or death; a comparable figure for automobiles is about 20 percent.
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Post by Rippinyarn »

neotrotsky wrote:
Rippinyarn wrote:Of course the inverse works too, if you can hold out riding the scooter that long. Simply mention that you are going to get one of those new Miatas/Fortwos/MINIs/Fiat 500s and watch the sparks fly! Then tell them with a straight face that all of them are much, much safer than riding your scooter and watch them shut the hell up. Then just change your mind - "oh well, y'all are right, I'm sticking with the scooter."

Yeah, it's evil :twisted:
And just what is wrong with a Miata or a Fiat 500? People have a problem with small cars that can do breakneck speed and outmaneuver a Corvette or Mustang driven by some corn-fed hillbilly? I'll take one of those sub 2 liter rockets anyday over a "muscle car" :!:
I was just saying that most people who think that scooters are ridiculously unsafe are probably underinformed about small car safety/maneuverability/efficiency. When I was a MINI (and Mini) owner, I used to get that all the time - "You'll get crushed if a semi hits you!", etc. Poor fools. And yeah, I'm with you on the smaller car = better. Still, we have to remember that the worst, most unsafe CAR offers much more driver/rider protection than the safest scooter. That the scooter is much more fun will have to continue to be our little secret. :wink:
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Post by htm9779 »

We had a good Christmas dinner with my parents. Things were icy at first. Conversation was strained but the scooter never came up. My sister told me that my mom and dad decided that they would not bring it up. It was a Christmas miracle!

I've taken my Buddy down the road and around the block a few times and absolutely love riding it.

Thanks for all the responses!
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Post by Lokky »

When I got my Stella my mother was super excited and wanted me to tell her all about it.
I guess it helps that my family is Italian :D
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Post by neotrotsky »

htm9779 wrote:We had a good Christmas dinner with my parents. Things were icy at first. Conversation was strained but the scooter never came up. My sister told me that my mom and dad decided that they would not bring it up. It was a Christmas miracle!

I've taken my Buddy down the road and around the block a few times and absolutely love riding it.

Thanks for all the responses!
Man, if my family reacted that way to any decision I made as an ADULT I'd just walk away from that table for a bit. They have some serious control issues if a simple decision like getting a scooter causes that much strife. It's just a bike....
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Post by bigbropgo »

not control issues, just worried about safety. Image
no i don't ride a scooter, i am a scooter pilot!
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Post by LunaP »

bigbropgo wrote:not control issues, just worried about safety. Image
Yeah, my family gets upset like that too. Well, some of them. It's their way of handling it. Eventually they swallow it and move on. If you ask me it's better than the yelling and swearing and grudge holding some would have 0.o

Look at it as a 'if you can't say something nice..." thing. At least they were willing to not ruin the family holiday by not bringing up a subject they knew would cause an argument. I don't think that's bad!
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Post by Jenetic »

I have an extra special twist to this topic. I had avoided telling either parent my scooter intentions for exactly all the reasons discussed in this thread. The kicker is that my dad had a scooter accident about 20 years ago in which he seriously damaged an already bad knee which required surgery & a long rehab. When he asked me what I wanted for Christmas, I told him not to get me anything. I'm well into adulthood, don't need anything and anything I want is far too expensive to ask for. After insisting, I finally relented and told him if he must get me something, I would like the book "Proficient Motorcycling" to which he said "Oh, so you're into motorcycles now?" And I said no, I want to get a scooter which got me a "well, you know how that went." I don't know the details of his accident. He was living on an island at the time. He was wearing pants and sneakers but probably not any real gear except maybe a helmet. We haven't gotten into a full discussion about it yet, but I expect lots of resistance cause if he crashed, I'm sure to crash, right? (He's a pilot btw and I'm sure he doubts I'm capable of riding without the same fate.)

I haven't told my mom yet since I don't actually have the bike yet. They're divorced so there's a chance they'll never talk about it and she won't know until I tell her, or now if she sees the book. They do talk on occasion though and it's almost always re:me. I also live 3000 miles away so that helps.

In the meantime, I was just told by my mom to go to bed. I'm 41 and "home" for the holidays. No, some parents never accept your adulthood. :roll:

Happy Holidays everyone!
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Post by bigbropgo »

LunaP wrote:
bigbropgo wrote:not control issues, just worried about safety. Image
Yeah, my family gets upset like that too. Well, some of them. It's their way of handling it. Eventually they swallow it and move on. If you ask me it's better than the yelling and swearing and grudge holding some would have 0.o

Look at it as a 'if you can't say something nice..." thing. At least they were willing to not ruin the family holiday by not bringing up a subject they knew would cause an argument. I don't think that's bad!
totally agreed. you know that they know kinda deal. but a "let it go," is the best way to go. :D i have been out of my parents house longer than i was in. i have my own little family. but every time i see my mother, she tells me to get a hair cut and tuck in my shirt. :lol: i love her for loving me and take her advice/comments about my life in stride. sound like the OP had a family who had some opinions and got them out.....then dropped it.
no i don't ride a scooter, i am a scooter pilot!
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Post by skully93 »

I got a ton of crap from Mom when I bought the Zuma. "your grandparents stopped riding because they were tired of funerals!", etc.

Haven't told her about the Buddy yet, that's a discussion for another day.

My in-laws live just a few miles away. they like the idea and they know what traffic is like. My dad also thinks it's fun, and is only concerned as a parent.

I turn 36 this year. No parent wants to hear of their kid doing anything unsafe, ever!

Mom has calmed a little since I sent pictures of the helmet, armored jacket, etc. I do need to get some armored pants or something for commuting, but I'm not overly concerned.
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Post by scootavaran »

My moms reaction to it was Just dont get stupid with it.
My dads reaction to it was Really a scooter? should have got a Harley like me.
My cousins reaction to it was Well....at least its a Honda.... try to keep up.
My mother in-law...what a cute moped :x

Overall my family is happy i'm on 2 wheels now but that comes from a family that has been riding for decades.
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Post by SYMbionic Duo »

Based on 2009 stats,

You were more likely to die as a result of the Flu or Murder than a Motorcycle accident.

Of the 4400 fatal motorcycle accidents 1/3 were caused by intoxication of the rider. 35% were due to excessive speed. (which may or not be different categories).

Also, the median engine displacement of cycles involved in a fatal accident has increased over the past decade from 600cc to 800cc.

My take: get a flu shot, wear a helmet, drive a small displacement cycle and take a motorcycle rider safety course or two.

Life is too short to not enjoy it.

-duo
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Post by ericalm »

SYMbionic Duo wrote:Based on 2009 stats,

You were more likely to die as a result of the Flu or Murder than a Motorcycle accident.
Again, is that for the general population or people who actually ride motorcycles?

Riding one, and riding many miles, obviously increases your odds.
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Post by Jenetic »

SYMbionic Duo wrote:Based on 2009 stats,

You were more likely to die as a result of the Flu or Murder than a Motorcycle accident.
Maybe this is naive, but I'm actually way more concerned about severe injury than death.
TVB

Post by TVB »

ericalm wrote:
SYMbionic Duo wrote:Based on 2009 stats,
You were more likely to die as a result of the Flu or Murder than a Motorcycle accident.
Again, is that for the general population or people who actually ride motorcycles?
Ah, but I also work for a health care facility, and a lot of people don't like me, so it evens out. ;)
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Post by DanielPerrin »

Jenetic wrote:
SYMbionic Duo wrote:Based on 2009 stats,

You were more likely to die as a result of the Flu or Murder than a Motorcycle accident.
Maybe this is naive, but I'm actually way more concerned about severe injury than death.
I'm with you. I've seen too many people (not just two-wheeled injuries) who you would think should be dead, but they survived and are severely handicapped. It's not as easy to die as you might think. There are downsides to dying, but living for the rest of my life with a severe injury seems more unpleasant.
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
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Post by SYMbionic Duo »

I agree, but i can't find stats on injury rates and types of injuries in vehicular accidents.

I would love to see the data, i know that someone somewhere is keeping records, i just don't know where to find it.

The reason that i wear a helmet and armor, is not to prevent death, i don't really care that much about dying, but to prevent chronic injury/ paralysis.

-duo
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Post by DanielPerrin »

I like to say that my leather jacket slides down the highway a lot better than my skin, and heads are not designed for bouncing off pavement. Someone once saw a person getting debris cleaned out of their roadrash wound, and they said it looked like he was having his skin cleaned with a wire brush. Someone who had more knowledge of the cleaning process said, “It didn’t LOOK like a wire brush. IT WAS a wire brush.” I’ll be happy to avoid that.
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Post by LunaP »

Jenetic wrote:
SYMbionic Duo wrote:Based on 2009 stats,

You were more likely to die as a result of the Flu or Murder than a Motorcycle accident.
Maybe this is naive, but I'm actually way more concerned about severe injury than death.
I am too. Once I'm dead it stops hurting. :rofl:
DanielPerrin wrote:I like to say that my leather jacket slides down the highway a lot better than my skin, and heads are not designed for bouncing off pavement. Someone once saw a person getting debris cleaned out of their roadrash wound, and they said it looked like he was having his skin cleaned with a wire brush. Someone who had more knowledge of the cleaning process said, “It didn’t LOOK like a wire brush. IT WAS a wire brush.” I’ll be happy to avoid that.
On a more serious note... I have pretty thick skin when it comes to pain, or pretty much anything medical... but this is just.... AAAHGGHRGHHGRGHH
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ericalm
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Post by ericalm »

SYMbionic Duo wrote:I agree, but i can't find stats on injury rates and types of injuries in vehicular accidents.
Unfortunately, a lot of relevant research is behind scholarly journal paywalls, but there is information out there.

Starting with the CDC:
Image
More than half of all nonfatal injuries treated in EDs were to the leg/foot (30%) or head/neck (22%).
The Hurt Report is old, but it's one of the few comprehensive studies we have to go on:
98% of the multiple vehicle collisions and 96% of the single vehicle accidents resulted in some kind of injury to the motorcycle rider; 45% resulted in more than a minor injury.
Half of the injuries to the somatic regions were to the ankle-foot, lower leg, knee, and thigh- upper leg.
Groin injuries were sustained by the motorcyclist in at least 13% of the accidents, which typified by multiple vehicle collision in frontal impact at higher than average speed.
From the NHTSA, 2009:
Although the focus of this study is on head and facial injuries, several studies have addressed the high rates of lower-extremity, chest, and abdominal injuries following motorcycle crashes. Kraus et al. (2002), in a study of the incidence of thoracic and abdominal injuries among injured motorcyclists in California, reported that multiple intra-thoracic and intra-abdominal injuries were common, and that the number of rib fractures and whether they were bilateral was strongly associated with serious injuries to the thoracic and abdominal organs. In a British study of injured motorcyclists, Ankarath et al. (2002) showed that thoracic and abdominal trauma as well as pelvic ring fractures associated with long bone injuries were the major contributors to reduced survival following head injury.
<a href="http://www.annemergmed.com/article/S019 ... 1/abstract" target="_blank">California study, 2003</a>
Facial injury was diagnosed in 24.4% of all injured riders, including 411 with one or more facial fractures. The odds of traumatic brain injury were 3.5 times greater with than without a facial injury and 6.5 times greater with a facial fracture than with no facial injury. Significantly increased odds of traumatic brain injury were observed for fracture of all bones of the face, but the highest odds of traumatic brain injury were found in riders with fractures to bones of the upper face. Helmet use status and the presence of skull fracture were found to be significant effect modifiers.
A review of risk factors and patterns of motorcycle injuries, 2008:
Head injuries are most frequent in fatal motorcycle crashes, contributing to about one-half of all motorcycle deaths (Kraus, 1989). Chest and abdominal injuries (e.g., lung contusion and liver laceration) are the second most com- mon cause of fatal motorcycle crashes comprising from 7% to 25% of motorcycle deaths (Ankarath et al., 2002; Mätzsch and Karlsson, 1986; Sarkar et al., 1995; Wick et al., 1998; Wyatt et al., 1999). Cer- vical spinal injuries are more likely to occur in fatal crashes than those to other spinal regions (Ankarath et al., 2002).
The lower extremity is the most common site of an injury in all motorcycle crashes (Bachulis et al., 1988; Braddock et al., 1992; Kraus et al., 1994a; Muelleman et al., 1992; Peek et al., 1994; Wladis et al., 2002). The thoracic spine is the most commonly injured spinal region in motorcycle crashes (Ankarath et al., 2002; Kupferschmid et al., 1989; Robertson et al., 2002), while riders with severe injury to the trunk are likely to have severe injuries in the same or other anatomic regions (Kraus et al., 2002). Facial injuries are diagnosed in one-fourth of all injured riders, and they are associated with a risk of traumatic brain injuries (Kraus et al., 2003).
Unsurprisingly, incidence of facial trauma, traumatic brain injury and death decreases with helmet use. Facial trauma goes hand and hand with brain injury. There's clear evidence that helmet use reduces fatalities, head and face injuries and that a full face helmet greatly reduces facial trauma and brain injury.
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Post by Edwub »

If you want something that requires journal access, send me the citation and I'll pull it up. I've got access for just about everything (UCLA, Stanford, Center for Vectorbourne Diseases - between these three there's few things I havent been able to track down.)
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Post by Skootz Kabootz »

ericalm wrote:
Groin injuries were sustained by the motorcyclist in at least 13% of the accidents, which typified by multiple vehicle collision in frontal impact at higher than average speed.
OK that got to me. Maybe I need to go get a cup... :roll:
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ericalm
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Post by ericalm »

Skootz Kabootz wrote:
ericalm wrote:
Groin injuries were sustained by the motorcyclist in at least 13% of the accidents, which typified by multiple vehicle collision in frontal impact at higher than average speed.
OK that got to me. Maybe I need to go get a cup... :roll:
This may be one instance where scooters and motorcycles differ.
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Post by Roose Hurro »

neotrotsky wrote:And just what is wrong with a Miata or a Fiat 500? People have a problem with small cars that can do breakneck speed and outmaneuver a Corvette or Mustang driven by some corn-fed hillbilly? I'll take one of those sub 2 liter rockets anyday over a "muscle car"

:!:
I don't... just test-drove a Scion IQ earlier today. Very nice, very maneuverable car (13ft turning circle... car itself is only 10ft long, so it just about turns on its' own axis).
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