Piaggio BV 250 -- likely!

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:36 am

Hi all,

I thought I'd give you an update of my scooter search, especially since my first scooter conversation began on this forum. I've spent more time on Modern Vespa largely because it seems to be busier and I tend to have a lot of questions.

Some of you might remember I was originally looking for a 50cc scooter but soon abandoned that idea for something freeway capable.

Latest news is I'm likely going to be getting a Piaggio BV 250! I visited my local dealer several days ago wanting to take a look at one. The customer rep there was very helpful. I left the store not committing to anything because I needed to take a closer look at my funds.

The dealer called me today and gave me a great deal (and I never even asked when I visited a few days ago!). Friday is when I go to the dealer to start paper work or perhaps put down some money to reserve the bike. With holiday travels, it's not realistic for me to get the scooter in hand until towards the end of next week.

After I get my scooter, I think I'll be doing some practice work at the parking lot opposite my apartment complex. The parking lot is basically at an abandoned mall so it's HUGE.

I guess one thing I wish we could do at the MSF basic rider course was have some time with the instructors to ride the motorcycles on the street for a bit. I know this is practically impossible because the motorcycles they use are not street-legal. No turn signals, no license plates (despite them being 250cc). I'd like to gain confidence with the motorcycle on the street with the instructor around (a bit like hand-holding, I admit, but no shame in that). Oh well...!

So lots of parking lot rides to first get comfortable with the scooter and then to re-hone my newly learnt skills. Then to ride the quiet roads around my neighbourhood for a while.

Cheers!

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:44 am

Congrats!! This is probably the most exciting, and hand-wringing, part of the process: the purchase and anticipation!!

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:00 am

It's a good scooter!

Curious as to why this one led the pack in your selection process.

SoCalScooter · Post by **SoCalScooter** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:55 am

teabow1 wrote:Hi all,
...

I guess one thing I wish we could do at the MSF basic rider course was have some time with the instructors to ride the motorcycles on the street for a bit. I know this is practically impossible because the motorcycles they use are not street-legal. No turn signals, no license plates (despite them being 250cc). I'd like to gain confidence with the motorcycle on the street with the instructor around (a bit like hand-holding, I admit, but no shame in that). Oh well...!

Cheers!

In Cali the msf offers "beyond basic" courses, including ride alongs like you described. Call the msf and see if any of these options are available in NC or a neighboring state (weekend vacation?)....

Congrats on the scoot! I think you made a fine choice.

easy · Post by **easy** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:32 am

Congrats on getting a scooter relax stay loose and have fun.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:34 am

teabow1 wrote:So lots of parking lot rides to first get comfortable with the scooter and then to re-hone my newly learnt skills.

I used to teach folks to ride in parking lots. One thing I learned to warn them about was to be heads-up about light poles.

It's like watching your feet when you're learning to dance and running into other dancers except you can get really hurt.

Also, just a friendly thought about your first couple rides. That BV250 can accelerate like a shot. Take your time feeling your way through your first couple rides until you have a good feeling for the throttle.

Congratulations on your decision. It sounds like you got a great deal. I'm really

with envy.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:04 am

I do believe the BV 250 has the same engine as the GTS 250. It is rock solid-NEVER an issue so far -about to hit 12,000 and I hope many more to go. Its costlier to maintain than the buddy though. Perfectly freeway capable.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:12 am

ericalm wrote:It's a good scooter!

Curious as to why this one led the pack in your selection process.

Ah yes, several reasons. Like your philosophy, I wanted the smallest CC scooter that I can get for my purposes. The greatest demand I would make on the scooter would be freeway riding and the BV 250 should do it well. Mind you, I won't get on the freeway for months at least!

Second is the price. Oddly enough, there really aren't many options for brand new scooters in the 250cc to 350cc range (I guess this is considered midrange for scooters, but apparently considered small for motorcycles). Yamaha and Honda don't produce anything brand new for the U.S. market. Vespa is too expensive. Kymco does offer some options but they price their midrange scooters very bizzarely--i.e., too expensive. The Piaggio BV 250 I'm buying will cost me $4,999.99 including tax, title, and everything. Yeah, that's the OTD!

These are the two main factors for why I went with the BV 250!

And yes, I've already begun the process of purchasing! Insurance is bought. Bill of sale to begin, likely tomorrow.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:15 am

SoCalScooter wrote:
In Cali the msf offers "beyond basic" courses, including ride alongs like you described. Call the msf and see if any of these options are available in NC or a neighboring state (weekend vacation?)....

Congrats on the scoot! I think you made a fine choice.

MSF does offer the "Experienced Rider Course" and "Advanced Rider Course" but for the Experienced course the minimum requirement is 6 months of riding (or I guess one could fudge it by saying 6 months after the basic rider course. But I don't think it's even street oriented. I called to see if the Street Rider course is offered. Not yet in NC. California gets first dips since I guess MSF is in California!

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:15 am

jrsjr wrote:
teabow1 wrote:So lots of parking lot rides to first get comfortable with the scooter and then to re-hone my newly learnt skills.
I used to teach folks to ride in parking lots. One thing I learned to warn them about was to be heads-up about light poles. It's like watching your feet when you're learning to dance and running into other dancers except you can get really hurt.

Also, just a friendly thought about your first couple rides. That BV250 can accelerate like a shot. Take your time feeling your way through your first couple rides until you have a good feeling for the throttle.

Congratulations on your decision. It sounds like you got a great deal. I'm really with envy.

I've PM'd you asking for some advice. : - )

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:23 am

peabody99 wrote: Its costlier to maintain than the buddy though. Perfectly freeway capable.

Is it? Hopefully not too much and hopefully certainly not as much as a car! *pray*

: - )

I hope this experiment of mine succeeds. In the past few days, I've been worrying more and more about safety with regards to getting home a brand new scooter without having much experience on it.

But, I also should remember I never once crashed the Suzuki GZ 250 motorcycles that we rode at the MSF basic rider course. And, my instructor at the end of the course lauded me for riding it so smoothly. Still...I have my anxieties. It's interesting to see myself be so anxious about riding a powered two-wheel on the street but I have absolutely no anxiety riding a bicycle on the busiest of roads even when I have to ride in the middle of a four lane street in order to get to the left turn lane! And, I've ridden in San Francisco traffic before going UPHILL and DOWNHILL. Maybe it's because I feel I know my body well enough to know how I can control the bicycle.

Wish me luck! Safe riding!

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:04 pm

Teabow: I'm sooo envious that you gotta BV 250. Congratulations! Not that I dislike my Buddy 170I... I suggest taking time in an empty parking lot to get to know the scoot. Since your an accomplished bicyclist, you'll get it pretty quickly. Good luck

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:03 pm

Drum Pro wrote:Teabow: I'm sooo envious that you gotta BV 250. Congratulations! Not that I dislike my Buddy 170I... I suggest taking time in an empty parking lot to get to know the scoot. Since your an accomplished bicyclist, you'll get it pretty quickly. Good luck

Crossing my fingers! : - )

And an update: I did plunk down the money to by the BV 250 today. It's not in my hand yet. Will be delievered next week but right now it's paid for! Wow!

DanielPerrin · Post by **DanielPerrin** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:58 am

teabow1 wrote: I hope this experiment of mine succeeds. In the past few days, I've been worrying more and more about safety with regards to getting home a brand new scooter without having much experience on it.

But, I also should remember I never once crashed the Suzuki GZ 250 motorcycles that we rode at the MSF basic rider course. And, my instructor at the end of the course lauded me for riding it so smoothly.

Good luck with the parking lot practice. The MSF course was a great experience for me, but I still took my ride to a parking lot where I recreated the MSF course exercises, like you are talking about doing. That parking lot practice gave me time to work out any kinks in applying the skills to real-life riding. I was a lot more comfortable riding on the street and in traffic after my parking lot practice.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:19 am

I'm really good friends with one of the MSF instructors where I live and he let me go to the range and practice before I took the class. Best class I could'a took, cos about 3 weeks after I passed the class I had to put that "S" swerve into practice in a real life situation.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:10 pm

teabow1 wrote: I hope this experiment of mine succeeds. In the past few days, I've been worrying more and more about safety with regards to getting home a brand new scooter without having much experience on it.

Wish me luck! Safe riding!

Your "experiment" will succeed, no 'ifs ands or buts' as long as you want it to......
At 52 years old my 87 year old mother tells me I'm 'mad' for riding a scooter.
I bought it for myself for my 49th birthday, so my experiment is still in progress..... (This summer 400 miles on my cage, 5000 miles on the scoot)
About your ride home with your new scoot, do as I did, be sure the route you take is one that is very familiar to you, and stop about half way to 'calm down' some let the adrenaline dissipate from your system some. (First ride is quite the 'rush')

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:12 pm

KABarash wrote:
teabow1 wrote: I hope this experiment of mine succeeds. In the past few days, I've been worrying more and more about safety with regards to getting home a brand new scooter without having much experience on it.

Wish me luck! Safe riding!
Your "experiment" will succeed, no 'ifs ands or buts' as long as you want it to......
At 52 years old my 87 year old mother tells me I'm 'mad' for riding a scooter.
I bought it for myself for my 49th birthday, so my experiment is still in progress..... (This summer 400 miles on my cage, 5000 miles on the scoot)
About your ride home with your new scoot, do as I did, be sure the route you take is one that is very familiar to you, and stop about half way to 'calm down' some let the adrenaline dissipate from your system some. (First ride is quite the 'rush')

I was lucky and avoided this, but it turned out my nervousness may not have been necessary. My family picked us up to go finalize paperwork and take home the scoot, and Lokky rode it back to the apartment- after about half an hour in the parking lot, I was ready to ride to my parent's house and show off, though.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:22 pm

If the dealership will allow, I'll ride around their lot a bit, but they may not want that. They did offer to ride it home for me. I'm only 1.7 miles from them.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:04 pm

Dude, you already passed the course and got your license, just commit man! You can do it. In fact you already did!

Remember: BILLIONS have ridden bikes in far worse condition all over the world without any of the education you got from the rider training course, and they're all still doing fine. Just commit to it and you will be fine! It's only 1.7 miles... hardly enough distance for it to warm up! Don't worry so much about nothing and just enjoy the ride

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:27 am

neotrotsky wrote:Dude, you already passed the course and got your license, just commit man! You can do it. In fact you already did!

Remember: BILLIONS have ridden bikes in far worse condition all over the world without any of the education you got from the rider training course, and they're all still doing fine. Just commit to it and you will be fine! It's only 1.7 miles... hardly enough distance for it to warm up! Don't worry so much about nothing and just enjoy the ride

I may have to agree. Get a feel for it in the parking lot, or up and down the street in front of the shop if it isn't a busy one. Or an alley or something. Then go for it.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:47 pm

teabow1 wrote:If the dealership will allow, I'll ride around their lot a bit, but they may not want that. They did offer to ride it home for me. I'm only 1.7 miles from them.

Is it 2 miles of major artery road with lots of traffic that is making you nervous? If so, use a mapping site and find a longer way home that uses only residential streets. That way you get some practice and avoid the traffic for a while.

Then get in the neighborhood or parking lot and ride until your ass hurts

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:46 pm

neotrotsky wrote:Dude, you already passed the course and got your license, just commit man! You can do it. In fact you already did!

Remember: BILLIONS have ridden bikes in far worse condition all over the world without any of the education you got from the rider training course, and they're all still doing fine. Just commit to it and you will be fine! It's only 1.7 miles... hardly enough distance for it to warm up! Don't worry so much about nothing and just enjoy the ride

Since you've passed MSF and it's so close, I'd say go for it. I usually recommend being overcautious, too. The number of people who have dropped a scooter in front of the dealer, on their way home or in the first week is high enough that it's a valid concern. These are almost invariably people with no training whatsoever.

Go during an off-hour with little traffic and simply take it slow. If there's a side street where you can practice a bit, get a feel for the acceleration and brakes. Those who've only ridden shifters and motorcycles frequently need a bit to adapt to the throttle. These really are twist-and-GO! No revving in neutral! Many experienced motorcycle riders have lost control because they weren't ready for that!

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:05 am

neotrotsky wrote:BILLIONS have ridden bikes in far worse condition all over the world without any of the education you got from the rider training course, and they're all still doing fine.

Well, actually they are not ALL doing fine

. Having said that, I agree with your advice. teabow1 has completed the basic MSF course, has a motorcycle endorsement, and seems to have a good attitude about gaining riding experience. Riding the new scooter home at a low traffic time of day on a route made of mostly of side streets should work out fine.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:54 pm

Thank you for all the advice and encouragement!

After much consideration and internal deliberation, I have decided to take up the dealer's off to ride my scooter back home. The reasoning is this: not only is the scooter brand new to me (I trained on a motorcycle with clutch) but all the riding gear is new to me too! For example, my full-face helmet has been ordered by the dealer (a Shoei Qwest) so I have not yet had time to acclimate to a full-face helmet. I trained on a 3/4 helmet. The riding jacket is new, I haven't even worn it yet. The gloves are yet to be bought from the dealer. On the MSF course, I trained on full-fingered bicycle gloves which are a lot more "sensitive" meaning I can feel more through the gloves.

Although all of these things seems rather mundane and non-consequential, I feel it's too many new variables for a novice to properly handle. Not only do I have to acclimate to the scooter before riding it on the street, I have to acclimate to the full-face helmet, the gloves, and the riding jacket. That's a lot of new things to take in. I'd rather have the scooter ridden home by an expert and then I take my own time that same day to ride around my parking lot acclimating for as long as I like before going out on the street either the same day or the day after.

Maybe I'm conservative that way but honestly, safety is my top priority. And in fact, because of that I have even searched further to find out what other additional courses and books I can use to train better. I simply don't feel the basic rider course from MSF is enough training. It lacks the on-street component which is what we need to learn and practice road-sense. To that effect, I have already in hand:

• the 2 proficient motorcycling book from Hough

• one book by James R. Davis, a motorcycle safety expert, on what novice riders need to transition from parking lot training to on-street riding safely. One big thing he advocates is the ability to stop a motorcycle/scooter at 0.8g force. Minimum MSF quickstop g-force requirement is only 0.6.

• a gift from a very generous person of the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD

• will be signing up for a free course offered by the local Police Department in which part of the course is 115 minute street riding with a police instructor who observes and shows me what I'm doing right and wrong as I navigate local streets. Honestly, who could beat this course? It's free and you get free advice from the motorcycle police!

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:03 pm

Well anyhow......... Mazel Tov on the new scoot and get out and ride as soon as you feel comfortable!!!

Ride happy, ride safe and don't forget to have fun!!!

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:55 pm

It's never wrong—especially when you're a new rider—to choose the more cautious option.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:59 am

teabow1 wrote:Thank you for all the advice and encouragement!

After much consideration and internal deliberation, I have decided to take up the dealer's off to ride my scooter back home. The reasoning is this: not only is the scooter brand new to me (I trained on a motorcycle with clutch) but all the riding gear is new to me too! For example, my full-face helmet has been ordered by the dealer (a Shoei Qwest) so I have not yet had time to acclimate to a full-face helmet. I trained on a 3/4 helmet. The riding jacket is new, I haven't even worn it yet. The gloves are yet to be bought from the dealer. On the MSF course, I trained on full-fingered bicycle gloves which are a lot more "sensitive" meaning I can feel more through the gloves.

Although all of these things seems rather mundane and non-consequential, I feel it's too many new variables for a novice to properly handle. Not only do I have to acclimate to the scooter before riding it on the street, I have to acclimate to the full-face helmet, the gloves, and the riding jacket. That's a lot of new things to take in. I'd rather have the scooter ridden home by an expert and then I take my own time that same day to ride around my parking lot acclimating for as long as I like before going out on the street either the same day or the day after.

Maybe I'm conservative that way but honestly, safety is my top priority. And in fact, because of that I have even searched further to find out what other additional courses and books I can use to train better. I simply don't feel the basic rider course from MSF is enough training. It lacks the on-street component which is what we need to learn and practice road-sense. To that effect, I have already in hand:

• the 2 proficient motorcycling book from Hough

• one book by James R. Davis, a motorcycle safety expert, on what novice riders need to transition from parking lot training to on-street riding safely. One big thing he advocates is the ability to stop a motorcycle/scooter at 0.8g force. Minimum MSF quickstop g-force requirement is only 0.6.

• a gift from a very generous person of the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD

• will be signing up for a free course offered by the local Police Department in which part of the course is 115 minute street riding with a police instructor who observes and shows me what I'm doing right and wrong as I navigate local streets. Honestly, who could beat this course? It's free and you get free advice from the motorcycle police!

When it comes to motorscooters, most cops are total and utter morons. I was pulled over FOUR times by police while commuting to work on the 101 because they insisted "mopeds" weren't allowed on the freeway. Did I mention I was riding a Vespa GTS250ie!?! To have a cop follow me just to tell me what I'm doing wrong doesn't seem like a great way to spend a day off, especially when motorcycle cops in two different cities can't agree on the basics of what is legal or not

Yes, motorcycle cops do have some mad skills on a bike, but that doesn't mean I want one hawking over me. There's a world of difference between being trained LIKE a motorcycle cop to being told what I'm doing wrong by a motorcycle cop.

Otherwise, and I know everyone learns at their own pace... and I know this is just opinion, but I think you're WAY over-stressing everything. Just get on and ride it a bit, and when you feel more confident, ride longer and faster. Taking steps is good, but no amount of "training" or instructional DVD's are going to replace basic experience in the saddle. You can't "learn" how to be a good rider from a book. Just isn't going to happen. You can only learn this thing by doing.

It almost seems to me that you're just this side of terrified of the bike itself. Yes, it's good to be well read on the subject, but you've already got the permit, the gear and the bike. Now's the time to just man up (or woman up, depending on your gender identity and preference) and do it.

Uncle Groucho · Post by **Uncle Groucho** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:47 pm

neotrotsky wrote: Otherwise, and I know everyone learns at their own pace... and I know this is just opinion, but I think you're WAY over-stressing everything. Just get on and ride it a bit, and when you feel more confident, ride longer and faster. Taking steps is good, but no amount of "training" or instructional DVD's are going to replace basic experience in the saddle. You can't "learn" how to be a good rider from a book. Just isn't going to happen. You can only learn this thing by doing.

It almost seems to me that you're just this side of terrified of the bike itself. Yes, it's good to be well read on the subject, but you've already got the permit, the gear and the bike. Now's the time to just man up (or woman up, depending on your gender identity and preference) and do it.

+1!

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:21 pm

I feel like sometimes the theme of "learn by doing not by reading" keeps coming up when I ask questions. : - ) Yes, you learn by doing but you cannot learn by doing when you don't know. Hence, the books and DVD to learn from and then practice time on the parking lot. The two go together. Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent, especially with bad habits and bad skills. When there is no real human being to be your teacher, you can only rely on watching a video and reading, and then applying that while you practice on the road and/or parking lot. I don't want to just practice without further knowledge because I bet you I have some bad habits that would develop and be ingrained.

About the course offered by the police department, I think it's a great thing. It's part of Bike Safe NC sponsored by various police department and the highway patrol programme. What the cops/instructors do when they follow you on your ride is to show you what safety techniques you are or are not using. And, from the looks of it from what I read and watch, there are LOTS of rider errors out there even among really experience motorcyclists/scooterists. Eliminating rider error is the first priority to lessening your chances of getting in a scooter accident because rider error is the NUMBER ONE cause of accident, not some so-called lunatic cager.

Here's one example of an advice that I learnt from one of the forums (MV or MB, I forget) that was utterly wrong until I watched the Ride Like a Pro DVD. The question I had asked was when we stop at an intersection and we are going to make a right (or left turn) do we already cock our handlebars to the right while stopped and then when safe to go, ride on? Almost everyone who replied thought like I did which was to have the handlebars face straight, ride straight just a bit and then cock right to turn right. Wrong, according to Ride Like a Pro. When you're stopped and want to make a right, cock to the right and when ready to go, ride with head and eyes loooking in the direction you want to go. In other words when you turn your handlebars in the direction you want to go when you're stopped at the intersection. This prevents an overly wide turn from happening which is dangerous in traffic.

I'm bringing this up as an example of how I could be practising the WRONG techniques without having read or watched something from the professionals.

By the way, got my scooter today! Today is the first day! When I'm done with some writing, I'll be out playing with it!

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:53 am

EDIT because I'm an ass for not putting CONGRATS before everything else!

teabow1 wrote: Here's one example of an advice that I learnt from one of the forums (MV or MB, I forget) that was utterly wrong until I watched the Ride Like a Pro DVD. The question I had asked was when we stop at an intersection and we are going to make a right (or left turn) do we already cock our handlebars to the right while stopped and then when safe to go, ride on? Almost everyone who replied thought like I did which was to have the handlebars face straight, ride straight just a bit and then cock right to turn right. Wrong, according to Ride Like a Pro. When you're stopped and want to make a right, cock to the right and when ready to go, ride with head and eyes loooking in the direction you want to go. In other words when you turn your handlebars in the direction you want to go when you're stopped at the intersection. This prevents an overly wide turn from happening which is dangerous in traffic.

I'm sorry. I have to speak up here. And before I do, please don't feel berated or anything, it's not my intention! But seriously... you sometimes seem almost obsessed with RESEARCHING something you SHOULD be going out and just doing (by now... you obviously couldn't do that before). Some research, sure, that's great! Fantastic!!! 200% more effort than maybe a third of scooterists out there (y'know... the 'liqour cycle' 50cc people that wear gardener gloves and sweatshirts for gear

).

But that's a TERRIBLE example! How you sit at a turn is entirely up to how you feel most comfortable. Also, what if the turn you need to make requires you to turn widely? Looking to an informational video for such incredibly small details just seems really really over the top to me, when you could just be out there on your scoot figuring out what works best for you. Seriously. There is not a wrong way to sit at a stoplight.

Okay, maybe if you tried to stand on your head, straddling your scoot, while you were waiting for a green. Not recommended.

I even have sound logic to argue with your instructional video! I've always preferred to sit with my wheel facing forward- if I were to be hit from behind, and my wheel is facing forward, I figure that there would be much less of a chance of my steering column/front fork being wrenched badly or breaking, and a better chance of the scoot not being totalled. Just a theory, borne out of asking myself "what if this were to happen?" constantly on the road. But my point is just as logically sound as the video's argument for why you should remain stop with your wheel turned- just for totally different reasons. You won't know how YOU like to sit at a stoplight until you are at one.

(Side note... this may be different from the bicycling community, but to be honest, I'm around a decent many scooter riders on a semi-regular basis due to my club, and the only talk or advice or coaching about is mechanical stuff, or gear. Not really on riding technique. Since nobody does it competitively the only time anybody really cares about your riding form is if you're in a group ride)

But saying "Practice does not make perfect" is... not right. At all. How else do you learn to do something?? I strongly encourage you, now that you are in possession of your wonderful new scooter, to get on it and learn. Things make a lot more sense that way!! You, as a person in specific, even have more experience than the average Joe or Jane since you are a bicycle commuter... becoming a scooterist should be much easier to adjust to for you (I would think anyway, I could be wrong). You were more knowledgeable of the two-wheeled world to begin with, then you took the MSF course and got your endorsement- you ARE equipped with the knowledge you need.

There isn't a better or faster way to learn everything else you need to learn OTHER than getting on, riding, and familiarizing yourself with your scooter, and gaining the eventual wisdom of a longtime scooter/motorcyclist over time. Those two things you CANNOT learn from a book or video.

TL:DR

I think you worry too much and should just go ride! Can we kick you off this forum til we see a photo of you on this darn scoot that we've been hearing about FOREVER? You really have built it up quite a bit, you know

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:45 pm

Ride like a Pro is for motorcycles and there are some differences. Thanks to the smaller wheels and shorter wheelbase, scooters can make some tighter turns at low speeds. Cocking too much on a smaller-wheeled scooter will likely take you down.

Also, depending on your scooter or motorcycle, your headlight may or may not be integrated with the handlebars. On most sportbikes, maxiscooters and sport style scooters they are not. But on more recent BVs, Vespas, the Buddy and Stella, they are. When making many turns, you want that light pointed forward so oncoming cars have more opportunity to see you.

There's a lot of advice out there for many sources. While professionals are probably somewhat more reliable than forums, not all of it is going to be applicable to you, your scooter and how you ride. Start with the fundamentals and stick to them. On everything else, take in advice, but don't treat it like scripture. Develop good judgement remain open to new experiences and knowledge.

pattio · Post by **pattio** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:58 pm

In my opinion starting-into-a-tight-turn is show-off stuff. Motor officers are trained to do it- they can circle their big bikes just as tight as they will go, and watching them practice around the cones on the youtubes can be quite impressive. In the context of more everyday riding, launching from a stop into a tight turn is a pretty good way to drop your vehicle for one of many different reasons (fuel hiccup, slippery spot, disc lock) and quite probably do it right in front of a group of other people. Not conjecture. A musical beat or two of forward motion is perfectly fine before you dig into your turn.

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:32 pm

pattio wrote:In my opinion starting-into-a-tight-turn is show-off stuff. Motor officers are trained to do it- they can circle their big bikes just as tight as they will go, and watching them practice around the cones on the youtubes can be quite impressive. In the context of more everyday riding, launching from a stop into a tight turn is a pretty good way to drop your vehicle for one of many different reasons (fuel hiccup, slippery spot, disc lock) and quite probably do it right in front of a group of other people. Not conjecture. A musical beat or two of forward motion is perfectly fine before you dig into your turn.

Eric... right now you are typing too much and you should be out riding!! It's 73 in Phoenix today brother! Happy New Year.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:17 pm

pattio wrote:In my opinion starting-into-a-tight-turn is show-off stuff. Motor officers are trained to do it- they can circle their big bikes just as tight as they will go, and watching them practice around the cones on the youtubes can be quite impressive. In the context of more everyday riding, launching from a stop into a tight turn is a pretty good way to drop your vehicle for one of many different reasons (fuel hiccup, slippery spot, disc lock) and quite probably do it right in front of a group of other people. Not conjecture. A musical beat or two of forward motion is perfectly fine before you dig into your turn.

Actually, I don't think it's show off stuff at all!

Today I rode my scooter around an abandoned parking lot doing lots of practices of precisely the kind of right turn I was talking about: making sharp right hand turns from a full stop at an intersection. I was turning from a parking lot onto a frontage road that is not used much at all.
the frontage road is a two-lane road but narrower than most roads so it is a challenge to turn right on to the road without crossing the painted double-yellow line.

Guess what? I kept crossing the double-yellow line. I had turned my handlebar all the way to the right and then proceeded to go. In the beginning, I kept crossing the double-yellow line because while turning I had to straighten up my handlebar. Eventually I started being able to make those sharp right-hand turns from a dead stop but not consistently. More practice on that tomorrow.

A lot of the tips I'm now receiving comes from a Motorcycle safety forum called msgroup.org. It's founded by James R. Davis, a motorcycle safety expert, and quite a number of people on that forum are Rider Coaches and MSF instructors.

I honestly don't believe making those sharp righthand turns from a full stop with the handlebar cocked to the right is a show off thing. Handling the scooter at slow speeds is essential to safety. It's quite a bit easier to handle the scooter at high speeds.

And in response to ericalm who says that scooters with small wheels cannot be cocked all the way to the left/right otherwise it would fall: I don't know about that but I'm suspecting that it's likely not true but I'm open to being proven otherwise. In any case, my BV 250 doesn't have that small of wheels. They are 16" wheels. And, I have been able to a few times make the right turns with the handlebar turned all the way to the right. I haven't been able to do it everytime. I need more practice.

In any case, I suggest folks visiting http://msgroup.org where the forum focuses pretty much entirely on safety and safety techniques.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:34 pm

LunaP wrote:
I think you worry too much and should just go ride! Can we kick you off this forum til we see a photo of you on this darn scoot that we've been hearing about FOREVER? You really have built it up quite a bit, you know

LOL. Maybe a picture later. : - ) There's really nothing too special about the scooter. It's gray colour, 2010 model of a BV 250. I added a Soft Italia 42L topcase to the back and the colour pretty much matches the scooter.

I think it's good that I "worry" like so. Actually, I wouldn't call it worry. I would call it proceeding with caution. I really believe a lot of riders out there get into accidents precisely because of rider error. I can see how novice me without better practising of slow speed maneuvers can quickly get into an accident (eg., overshooting into the next lane, i.e., making a turn too wide when starting from a stop). It's all about learning to control the scooter at slow speeds. High speeds are actually easy. Countersteering and all that not a problem.

BTW, this is the parking lot practice I began to do today. See:
http://msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=194&Set=171-204
Basically, one of the excercises is precisely making a right/left turn from a dead stop with the handlebar cocked to the right/left.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:54 pm

Sorry, have to disagree there. Worry creates doubt, and if you doubt that you can do something, then why do it?

As for the instructional bit, that may work for some riders on some bikes, but not every motorcycle handles in the same way and therefore your techniques will change from one bike to another. There is no way I'd ride that BV250 like I ride myP200e! I lean HARD on my scooter and actually use my handlebars very little in comparison to what they're teaching. But, it's a very short wheelbase scoot with an offset center of gravity and I'm hard on my bikes

I actually had to reprogram myself after riding a Harley for months before I got my scooter that it was OK to hard lean in heavy traffic. Harleys don't take kindly to putting a knee down too much...

Get too used to riding one way and the moment you get on a different bike you'll have to re-learn everything. Best to learn by practice and get on as many bikes as you can. That way you learn to adapt as the situation calls, and that will make you a FAR better rider. Just get out and ride as much as possible no matter what the weather. Hell, a little wet weather riding is a great exercise!

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:25 pm

teabow1 wrote:And in response to ericalm who says that scooters with small wheels cannot be cocked all the way to the left/right otherwise it would fall: I don't know about that but I'm suspecting that it's likely not true but I'm open to being proven otherwise. In any case, my BV 250 doesn't have that small of wheels. They are 16" wheels. And, I have been able to a few times make the right turns with the handlebar turned all the way to the right. I haven't been able to do it everytime. I need more practice.

Obviously, cocking the wheel in and of itself won't make the scooter fall. However, having it in that position will make it more susceptible to falling. You're creating a pivot point in the falling direction when you have your wheel cocked. Here's my anecdotal experience with this: I've dropped my scooter once and it was because my wheel was cocked. I was pulling into my driveway and went to execute a maneuver to turn my scooter around and back in into the garage. I'd been doing the same maneuver for months and felt pretty comfortable with it. As I started a slow speed turn to the right, with the wheel cocked, I saw that my partner had placed the garbage can in my normal path. I put on the brakes and down she went, slow-mo all the way. So it wasn't the turning itself that caused the drop, it was the turned wheel in combo with quick braking that caused it. As for learning that tight turn, that'll come with time. Just keep practicing. But keep in mind that sitting with a cocked wheel could, in fact, cause you to drop if something unexpected happens.

pattio · Post by **pattio** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:07 am

teabow1 wrote:
pattio wrote:In my opinion starting-into-a-tight-turn is show-off stuff. Motor officers are trained to do it- they can circle their big bikes just as tight as they will go, and watching them practice around the cones on the youtubes can be quite impressive. In the context of more everyday riding, launching from a stop into a tight turn is a pretty good way to drop your vehicle for one of many different reasons (fuel hiccup, slippery spot, disc lock) and quite probably do it right in front of a group of other people. Not conjecture. A musical beat or two of forward motion is perfectly fine before you dig into your turn.
Actually, I don't think it's show off stuff at all!

Today I rode my scooter around an abandoned parking lot doing lots of practices of precisely the kind of right turn I was talking about: making sharp right hand turns from a full stop at an intersection. I was turning from a parking lot onto a frontage road that is not used much at all.
the frontage road is a two-lane road but narrower than most roads so it is a challenge to turn right on to the road without crossing the painted double-yellow line.

Guess what? I kept crossing the double-yellow line. I had turned my handlebar all the way to the right and then proceeded to go. In the beginning, I kept crossing the double-yellow line because while turning I had to straighten up my handlebar. Eventually I started being able to make those sharp right-hand turns from a dead stop but not consistently. More practice on that tomorrow.

A lot of the tips I'm now receiving comes from a Motorcycle safety forum called msgroup.org. It's founded by James R. Davis, a motorcycle safety expert, and quite a number of people on that forum are Rider Coaches and MSF instructors.

I honestly don't believe making those sharp righthand turns from a full stop with the handlebar cocked to the right is a show off thing. Handling the scooter at slow speeds is essential to safety. It's quite a bit easier to handle the scooter at high speeds.
.

That's the second time on this forum that I have offered you an opinion based on personal experience, and you have 'argued ' the point. I guess I'm a little thin skinned, but I just don't get where you're coming from. Best of luck with the advice you get from the sources you do respect. This Internet stranger regrets answering your requests for advice. I know you will have many good times on your scooter regardless.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:00 pm

pattio wrote:
That's the second time on this forum that I have offered you an opinion based on personal experience, and you have 'argued ' the point. I guess I'm a little thin skinned, but I just don't get where you're coming from. Best of luck with the advice you get from the sources you do respect. This Internet stranger regrets answering your requests for advice. I know you will have many good times on your scooter regardless.

Hey, no hard feelings. Not trying to be argumentative here. I'm only trying to say what I think is really necessary and safe practise for riding.

My main source of safety information (and exercises) besides the MSF basic rider course which I took, is actually http://msgroup.org by James R. Davis, a motorcycle safety expert. I also have the Ride Like a Pro DVD which has very good training tips on how to ride safer and be in more control of the scooter. I also have Davis's first volume on motorcycle safety. And finally, if you go to YouTube and search for "CaptCrashIdaho" you'll find lots of videos on how to ride with better skill and control of your scooter/motorcycle. Personally, I'm only interested in the safety videos. Not those on how to make wheelies, stoppies and other tricks which are not related to being a more skilled and safer rider.

After much practice (and more needs to come) I have been able to make those very tight right turns from a stop with my handlebar all turned to the right. It's doable, and I would say a necessary skill if you don't want to run into the wrong lane while making those turns.

I still need to practise because I can't 100% of the time do it. Mostly it's due to not having enough experience and just gaining my confidence slowly.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:22 am

There is NO advice better than RIDING. Live and learn.....crash.....whatever.....2 years under my belt and it aint been easy

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:44 am

Raiderfn311 wrote:There is NO advice better than RIDING. Live and learn.....crash.....whatever.....2 years under my belt and it aint been easy 8)

I see your point, Raiderfn311 and I agree with you in the context that riding is better training than arbitrarily digging up hairbrained advice from random websites and talking it to death. But there ARE well-rounded and universally accepted courses and books that will put ideas in your head that WILL make you a better rider before you even sit on a bike. There are concepts you will learn in the MSF or Proficient Motorcycling that will make you a better rider, instantly, that would take years to just 'pick up' from riding, and are better *not* learned "the hard way." ha.

So yeah, ride, ride, ride, that's the definition of experience and it's great, but don't rule out book learnin' and expert instruction, I think it's just as important. What's NOT a good idea is convincing yourself that you "know it all." The best riders you meet are the ones that are aware that you can never learn enough about riding safety and technique. I know I learn more every day and there's still a lot to learn.

Bryan

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:45 am

Sorry if I stepped on toes here. Cool advice all around.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:52 am

Raiderfn311 wrote:Sorry if I stepped on toes here. Cool advice all around. :o

Not at all, it's a discussion, not a lecture.

Bryan

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:25 pm

I bought my 50cc having not been on anything 2 wheels for years, and nothing motorized for MANY years. Did I nearly smack into things in m 'hood for a bit? Yes. But I toodled around for a couple days. Then I took it to work, a 5 mile commute, with some busy roads and lots of stops. Then a friend put a pipe on it for me and did some other things to even it out, and I rode it for a couple months before I said "more, I want more!"

That's why I'm confident on Yoda at good speed now, but I didn't spend a lot of time in parking lots, just lower volume streets.

Don't dive right into highway driving (I will not take the highway, I am too scared of people, maybe that will even out with time but it's 150cc anyway, not a cruiser). Don't worry about it, remember to breathe, be aware of what's around you, and enjoy the feeling. This is why you bought it!

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:06 pm

Raiderfn311 wrote:There is NO advice better than RIDING. Live and learn.....crash.....whatever.....2 years under my belt and it aint been easy

Yes, of course riding is the whole point

Got 70 miles of riding in since I got my scooter and most of it not in the parking lot.

pattio · Post by **pattio** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:06 pm

teabow1 wrote:
pattio wrote:
My butt hurts
Hey, no hard feelings. Not trying to be argumentative here. I'm only trying to say what I think is really necessary and safe practise for riding.

My main source of safety information (and exercises) besides the MSF basic rider course which I took, is actually http://msgroup.org by James R. Davis, a motorcycle safety expert. I also have the Ride Like a Pro DVD which has very good training tips on how to ride safer and be in more control of the scooter. I also have Davis's first volume on motorcycle safety. And finally, if you go to YouTube and search for "CaptCrashIdaho" you'll find lots of videos on how to ride with better skill and control of your scooter/motorcycle. Personally, I'm only interested in the safety videos. Not those on how to make wheelies, stoppies and other tricks which are not related to being a more skilled and safer rider.

After much practice (and more needs to come) I have been able to make those very tight right turns from a stop with my handlebar all turned to the right. It's doable, and I would say a necessary skill if you don't want to run into the wrong lane while making those turns.

I still need to practise because I can't 100% of the time do it. Mostly it's due to not having enough experience and just gaining my confidence slowly.

We all work with what we've got when it comes to learning this stuff, and if there's one thing I've learned about you so far, its that confidence is not a problem.

Here's something to think about when it comes to this idea of starting a vehicle into motion with the handlebars turned all the way against either of the steering stops. If you were in a situation such as you describe, you would have many options- you could duck paddle the bike a couple steps to either side to get a better angle, motor forward just a step or two to pull back a a better angle, or, if you're strong, sometimes even just drag a scooter to the side a little while its still up on the stand. Any of these things gets you a better launch. When you are parked at a sidewalk cafe or other busy place, it is respectful to walk your bike a step or two away from those nearby (traffic permitting) to spare them your noise and fumes.

Just like martial artists will tell you its all about staying out of fights, safe, smart street riding is absolutely not about using the extreme capabilities of your vehicle. It's about being smooth. You can learn to turn your vehicle as 'tight' as it will go, but what I'm talking about is changing your relationship to the turn by extending into an imaginary 'line' that you make with your vehicle. The 'turn' on the street begins and ends where you say it does, and you can 'open up' tight ones with your line. Watch the way racers do it- they are leaned over and sideways on the way in, in order to be where they want on the way out. Ask not how you can tighten your turn. Ask how you can open up your line.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:29 pm

teabow1 wrote:After much practice (and more needs to come) I have been able to make those very tight right turns from a stop with my handlebar all turned to the right. It's doable, and I would say a necessary skill if you don't want to run into the wrong lane while making those turns.

Here's the thing, teabow - you're on a forum filled with people who actually ride, many of us pretty much every day. Our advice comes from real world experience. I can tell you, from my real world experience, that starting a turn with the wheel turned is not at all a necessary skill. I am plenty capable of making a tight turn without straying into the other lane. I never do it by tightly turning the wheel. If you want to learn that technique, that's fine, but I'm here to tell you that it is, in fact, not the only way to do it. My main warning to you is, as I described upthread, if you have to jam on the brakes and you have your wheel turned like that; something that can easily happen if you fail to notice another vehicle before you start your turn; you will go down.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:43 pm

Amen, Rita.

teabow1, while I applaud your mastery of a particular skill, this skill is way down on the list of stuff for responsible prudent riding. Just because one self-proclaimed Internet 'expert' says it's so on his website doesn't make it so.

I had to re-learn the art of prudential ridership after two decades without a two-wheeler. Working on ways to increase my situational awareness and (re-)learning to countersteer at street speeds, IMHO, are far more useful and beneficial in general than a particular arcane turning skill that might be used once in a veritable blue moon. And I'm always still learning.

None of us know more than all of us, y'dig?

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:49 pm

Here's a good example of something you'll probably never learn from riding, unless you learn it by an unfortunate experience, when it may be too late:

I cage to work and a couple times a week, I see a guy riding a white Kymco Like 125 on Lake Street here in Chicago.

I've seen him for maybe almost a year now, so he's been riding at least a year. He (unlike many other people I see on scooters) rides pretty responsibly, he's not aggressive or irresponsible, it seems like he makes good decisions, he wears a full-face, decent shoes, safe gear…

But EVERY DAY he rides right in the middle of the lane, right over miles of arguably the worst grease strip in Chicago. I watch his tires as he rolls away from lights and there are black spots on his tires mirroring the ground he just rolled over. One of the first things you'd learn by reading a book or taking an MSF class is that riding in the left wheel track (most of the time) gives you the best traction and visibility (cars see you, you see cars). There are situations and counterarguments that don't always adhere to that 'rule,' but if you could see this grease strip, you would get what I'm saying.

I'm not making any assumptions about his character, I never took MSF myself, maybe he did and doesn't remember that part, but having grease and oil smeared all over your tires is bad news and I'd hate for him to learn the hard way.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:02 pm

illnoise wrote:Here's a good example of something you'll probably never learn from riding, unless you learn it by an unfortunate experience, when it may be too late:

I cage to work and a couple times a week, I see a guy riding a white Kymco Like 125 on Lake Street here in Chicago.

I've seen him for maybe almost a year now, so he's been riding at least a year. He (unlike many other people I see on scooters) rides pretty responsibly, he's not aggressive or irresponsible, it seems like he makes good decisions, he wears a full-face, decent shoes, safe gear…

But EVERY DAY he rides right in the middle of the lane, right over miles of arguably the worst grease strip in Chicago. I watch his tires as he rolls away from lights and there are black spots on his tires mirroring the ground he just rolled over. One of the first things you'd learn by reading a book or taking an MSF class is that riding in the left wheel track (most of the time) gives you the best traction and visibility (cars see you, you see cars). There are situations and counterarguments that don't always adhere to that 'rule,' but if you could see this grease strip, you would get what I'm saying.

I'm not making any assumptions about his character, I never took MSF myself, maybe he did and doesn't remember that part, but having grease and oil smeared all over your tires is bad news and I'd hate for him to learn the hard way.

Yeah, there are various arguments for what lane position to ride in.

North Carolina's DMV states that riding in the middle of the lane is best (most of the time) because you're most visible to the car driver in front since, supposedly according to their argument, car drivers use the rearview mirror more than the side mirrors.

MSF basic rider course suggests something else. They suggest riding in the left side of the lane most of the time, which if I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying is the choice lane position. MSF says this way you'd be out of the grease tracks and be in the side mirror view of the car driver in front which according to them is the one car driver use most.

I don't have a strong opinion of either except that we simply have to negotiate the merits of these various arguments depending on circumstance. Sometimes riding in the middle of the lane feels safer because there's a buffer zone on the left and right. Sometimes riding in the left position of the lane feels safer because of grease tracks etc.

Modern Buddy

Piaggio BV 250 -- likely!

Piaggio BV 250 -- likely!

Re: Piaggio BV 250 -- likely!

Re: Piaggio BV 250 -- likely!

Re: Piaggio BV 250 -- likely!

Re: Piaggio BV 250 -- likely!

Yo