NITROGEN FILLED TIRES

SCOOTER SOLDIER · Post by **SCOOTER SOLDIER** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:45 am

Has anyone had the air replaced with Nitrogen? I have read some differing opinions on the Nitrogen vs Air and the only real negative I have found is the cost vs return.

Nascar and Aircraft use Nitrogen because it is more stable and apparently the pressure does not fluctuate as much as air does, and apparently the molecules are larger and you are less likely to lose pressure or develop a slow leak etc............

What does this mean? Well from what I read is you will get better fuel mileage due to a more stable tire pressure and this will extend the life of your tires due to better tire wear because of proper tire pressure.

when I have to get new tires I may switch to nitrogen unless I get some information that has had a negative experience or someone can convince me this is not a good idea............looking for some input on this............

vitaminC · Post by **vitaminC** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:08 am

It's a scooter, not a MotoGP bike...

What will you do when it comes time to top the tires off?

SCOOTER SOLDIER · Post by **SCOOTER SOLDIER** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:27 am

You can top off with regular air if need be and it wont harm anything, I believe air is made up of like 73 or 78% nitrogen anyway, but the whole Idea behind it is that you do not need to top off, but in the event you do then it is recommended that you top off with nitrogen.

The reason I started looking at this was I just bought new tires for the wifes car, and Costco put nitrogen in instead of air at no charge, so I will check with them and see if they could help me out on this.

seems more and more places are using nitrogen vs air.......

weaseltamer · Post by **weaseltamer** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:06 am

nitrogen would be good for the less studious auto person such as myself, but honestly, i really want some tweels.

http://www.fastcoolcars.com/airless-tires.htm

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:11 am

The new Mini Coopers ride on nitrogen. From what I've heard, they basically maintain their pressure so there's very little need to top off. The dealer I spoke with was a bit cagey about it, though, and I haven't had a chance to ask any of my Mini-owning friends.

If more cars begin to switch to Nitrogen, though, they may start installing Nitrogen hoses at dealers or even gas stations.

What I'd like to know is if you can just fill any ol' tire with it and be done.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:54 pm

...so much for free air at the local gas station!

Whatever,
--Keys

scullyfu · Post by **scullyfu** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:29 pm

Keys wrote:...so much for free air at the local gas station!

Whatever,
--Keys

holy crap, batman! you get free air in arizona? i haven't seen free air at a gas station since the 90's, only those stupid little 25cent machines, which could well be stupid little 50cent machines by now.

petunia · Post by **petunia** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:30 pm

scullyfu,
Barnecutt's Shell gas station in Admiral District in West Seattle has free air. They still offer full service without an increase in gas prices. They are super fast fixing a car flat tire. Now if I could only convince them to go into the scooter fixing business, they would have a devoted customer for life...very nice people.

Tazio · Post by **Tazio** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:49 pm

I get free air in my garage whenever I need it. I purchased an air compressor from Sears about fifty years ago and it still works fine. It was one of the few good investments I made back in those days.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:57 am

SCOOTER SOLDIER wrote: Nascar and Aircraft use Nitrogen because it is more stable and apparently the pressure does not fluctuate as much as air does, and apparently the molecules are larger and you are less likely to lose pressure or develop a slow leak etc............

Who am I to disagree with NASCAR, but I'm not convinced. Air is mostly nitrogen anyway (78%). The rest is mostly oxygen (O2) and carbon dioxide (CO2). Remembering back to Chemistry classes, nitrogen (N2) is more inert and bottled nitrogen is likely drier than your local air alright. I'm not sure that you are going to notice any difference in practice. I'll keep using the little compressor in the garage. Any of you using nitrogen, I'd advise you to keep checking tire pressure anyway.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:19 am

Yep, there are still 3 or 5 places in town here that offer free air..

--Keys

db · Post by db » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:46 am

I know here in cincinnati there are still free air places, some have went to the pay kind (like speedway) but if you go inside and ask they can turn it on for free or you can just pay. Maybe a way to stop so much use, i dunno

SCOOTER SOLDIER · Post by **SCOOTER SOLDIER** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:20 am

dooglas

"Any of you using nitrogen, I'd advise you to keep checking tire pressure anyway."

Absolutely! Anyone using Nitrogen or air should check tire pressure periodically just like with any other periodic maintenance like checking oil etc.

Better safe than sorry.

hcstrider · Post by **hcstrider** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:41 am

I doubt that I will ever fill my Buddy’s tires with nitrogen because I think that it will lull me into complacency about the importance of routinely checking my tire pressure. For most 4 wheeled vehicles complacency about your vehicle’s mechanical functioning is an acceptable risk but for a scooter/motorcycle I do not want to get complacent about verifying that my scooter/motorcycle is mechanically at its best.

Over the years I have read several reasons for switching to nitrogen in my vehicle’s tires and the most convincing reason is because nitrogen leaks out of the tire at a slower rate than air so tires filled with nitrogen will remain at their optimum pressure longer than tires filled with air. This reasoning caters to people who do not routinely check their tire pressure: fill your tires with nitrogen and you have maintenance free tires so you don’t have to worry about checking your tire pressure. I don’t want to make this assumption on my Buddy. Nitrogen does leak out of the tires but it leaks out at a slower rate than air and because it leaks out slower it would be easy for me to assume that my Buddy’s tire pressure is always OK when it is not. For me, I would not want to be driving my Buddy with under inflated tires because this would make the handling dangerous.

With the money that I would have spent on nitrogen I have instead spent on an accurate digital pressure gauge. This way, every week on Saturday morning I check my Buddy’s tire pressure before starting my weekend of riding. If my tires need to be inflated by a pound or 2, it is ridiculously easy to use my bicycle pump to inflate the tires. I have an air compressor for filling my vehicle’s tires but with the Buddy it is just faster and easier to use a bicycle pump.

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:48 am

Our local Denver news did a story on using nitrogen in tires this morning. Sounds to me like the jury is still out. Consumer Reports also did a long term test comparing identical tires using nitrogen and air (I do not know their testing method, so take this with a grain of salt) and their opinion is that nitrogen offers no measurable benefit.

If nitrogen offered some other benefit, like if it was less prone to blow out or if it allowed for a smoother ride, I'd consider it. As it stands, it appears the larger molecules of nitrogen leak a bit less than air and that's about it. Personally, I use a nice, old fashioned dial gauge with a bleeder valve and a bicycle pump for my scooter and bike. Even for my big motorcycle tires I only need 5-10 pumps if my pressure is down a pound or two.

It's been said before but it deserves mentioning again. If you ride you need to take some responsibility for your equipment. Check tire pressure and oil in your 4 stroke every week or so. Go over fasteners every 500-1000 miles to make sure nothing is loosening up. Check cables, wiring, lights, pretty much everything, at least occasionally. It only takes a few minutes and it makes you a safer, smarter rider.

SCOOTER SOLDIER · Post by **SCOOTER SOLDIER** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:40 am

gt

I would have to disagree with that article as you have explained it here, and this is why, all aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen and you have to ask yourself why?

Because they are less likely to have a drop or rise in pressure due to altitude or temperature, its as simple as that and it equates to a longer life on tires,better fuel mileage etc, but as you stated one must always insure you have proper pressure with air or nitrogen, the added benefit being larger molecules and nitrogen leaks out at a much slower rate than air does.

I am sold on it obviously but wont pay a ridiculous amount of money if any to convert, if I can get it done for free or a nominal fee then I will, but sure wont pay what some of these places are charging.

Costco did it for free on my wifes car and it is standard procedure for them, now if I can just get them to sell scooter tires then I will be set!

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:02 pm

I would have to disagree with that article as you have explained it here, and this is why, all aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen and you have to ask yourself why?

Because they are less likely to have a drop or rise in pressure due to altitude or temperature, its as simple as that and it equates to a longer life on tires,better fuel mileage etc, but as you stated one must always insure you have proper pressure with air or nitrogen, the added benefit being larger molecules and nitrogen leaks out at a much slower rate than air does.

Now, for a moment, think hard about what you wrote above. Then ask yourself, "how often do I start my Buddy at sea level and then ride up to 30,000 feet? And how often do I begin my ride at 65 degrees F, cruise for a couple of hours at minus 30 and then park when it's 85 degrees?"

I'm not debating the merits of nitrogen vs. air, in fact, I hadn't given it a moment's thought until it was brought up here. That got me to thinking about "why" and then I saw the news story. I'll be curious to read the CR article as well, but at this point I probably won't go out of my way to look for nitrogen. Airplanes and cars are different. Sometimes the technology from airplanes (disc brakes) translates well to cars. I simply think the jury is still out on nitrogen.

And really, if anyone could benefit from nitrogen it would be those of us in or near the Rocky Mountains. I regularly experience altitude shifts of up to 7000 feet and temperatures fluctuate accordingly. If one of my dealerships starts offering nitrogen I'll probably check it out and then take my gauge with me on rides into the high country.

SCOOTER SOLDIER · Post by **SCOOTER SOLDIER** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:48 pm

GT

Actually I agree with some of your points but I think you must have been a little tired when you wrote the following.

"how often do I begin my ride at 65 degrees F, cruise for a couple of hours at minus 30 and then park when it's 85 degrees?"

Gt Next time you go for a ride, before you hop on the ole scoot put your hand on the tire and feel the temperature of it, then go ride for 30 Minutes and place your hand on the tire again.

It has to do with the temperature of the tire changing not the temperature outside although that is somewhat of a factor. The Tire Temperature changes drastically as you ride it and with normal air this can affect tire pressure, with nitrogen you have a more stable pressure through the temperature ranges experienced thus giving you better tire wear and better fuel mileage.

http://www.getnitrogen.org/sub.php?view=nascar

and the altitude thing well that is just common sense on that issue, everyone understands we will not be experiencing large changes on our little rides.

as for this comment of yours........

"Airplanes and cars are different. Sometimes the technology from airplanes (disc brakes) translates well to cars."

Ya lost me on this one, disc brakes translates to scooter and motorcycles as well and probably more so, when we look at tire pressures I pay much closer attention to the tire pressures on my scooter than I do my truck, the scoot only has two wheels and a blow out or loss of control due to improper tire pressure is probably going to hurt a lot worse on a scooter or motorcycle vs a car or truck. just my opinion

I wont go out of my way for nitrogen like you but I wont discount the benefits of it either and if it becomes available easily I will be getting it for sure.

chadseld · Post by **chadseld** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:22 pm

Air is %78 nitrogen. So, yeah, my tires are filled with nitrogen.
In fact, some industries use the word 'nitrogen' to refer to air, as opposed to some other gas like carbon dioxide.

SCOOTER SOLDIER · Post by **SCOOTER SOLDIER** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:33 pm

chads

correct, air is 78% nitrogen it is the other 22% gases that cause the fluxuation in tire pressure due to temperature etc. Some reports I have read state that 95% nitrogen leaks out 4 to 5 times slower than regular air. that is pretty significant when you think about it and will result in your tires lasting much longer due to proper wear and much better fuel mileage as well, some reports of a 3.3% increase in fuel mileage just from using nitrogen.

Now on our scooters that probably does not mean alot but for the big rig drivers who also use Nitrogen that can equate to quite a bit. if the over the road drivers in the big rigs, Nascar and all aircraft are using it that is good enough for me.

I just read that Costco is the first retailer to carry nitrogen in all of its stores where they have a tire center. I imagine others will follow suit.

petunia · Post by **petunia** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:32 am

And now a note about Aircraft Tires... High Performance & Large Transport aircraft DO use Nitrogen in thier tires for stability against temperature fluctuations, BUT, they are operating with up to 250 psi with short cycles from cold soaked to red-hot braking. They don't "get up to temperature" for optimum performance like street tires. Kinda Apples vs Oranges in uses. Smaller General Aviation aircraft like Cessna's etc. still use air with runway tire speeds up to 100 mph. By the way, check your local airport for FREE scooter parking!

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:08 am

Actually I agree with some of your points but I think you must have been a little tired when you wrote the following.

Hah, you are correct sir! Probably got about 4 hours last night. Showed up especially in the comment I made about airplane technology translating to "cars" when I meant to say "vehicles that travel the earth's surface". All I'm saying is that the jury is out for me and that's mainly because I'm anal about checking my pressures. If nitrogen offered other benefits I might be convinced to go out of my way for it. As it stands now, I'm a disbeliever willing to have my mind changed.

As for tires warming up to "operating temperature", I don't buy it. Check pressures when cold and inflate to proper temperature when cold. Your tires are designed to warm up to operating temperature, the pressure while you're riding is irrelevant as long as the pressure is correct while cold. And yeah, the tire surface gets hot. I park my Ducati in a sport chock and use a hefty chain lock that I pass through the spokes of the front wheel. My head is right next to the tire when I'm locking up and I can feel the heat radiating off my tire. Does this constant fluctuating of temperature cause a loss in tire pressure? My actual, real life experience is no. I typically add air to my motorcycle tires less than once a month. My Buddy's tires hold air even better.

Airplane tires experience radical sudden changes in temperature and external pressure. You never force a stationary bike tire to instantaneously start spinning at 150 miles per hour, like during a landing. You also don't experience the radical changes in external pressure. I'm looking forward to reading the CR article and thanks for the link, I was actually searching for that link when I got sidetracked this morning.

Capt. Spaulding · Post by **Capt. Spaulding** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:37 pm

OK, Lemme see if I got this straight. Air is like 78% nitrogen with 22% being the other stuff with mostly smaller molecules? Those smaller molecules leak out faster than nitrogen? So I figure, when the smaller "other molecules" leak out, my percentage of nitrogen in the tires has increased. So if I top off with more "air", in the traditional 78/22 mix, my percentage of nitrogen is then more than the original 78%. And so on and so on. Eventually, I'll even be approaching 100% nitrogen.

Can we please move on to something a little less OCD oriented?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:15 pm

Yeah, what's the point? I carry a pressure guage with me anyway...

--Keys

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:38 pm

Not to change the subject or anything, but here's a tire balancing solution that some folks on the Ducati board are trying out:

http://www.innovativebalancing.com/index.html

Early returns suggest that two wheeled vehicles traveling on the outside surface of the earth's crust ride glass smooth with no wheel balancing whatsoever. We'll know more about tire wear in a few months.

Those running tubes need not apply.

Modern Buddy

NITROGEN FILLED TIRES

NITROGEN FILLED TIRES

Re: NITROGEN FILLED TIRES

Sounds crazy