Stalling at stop signs

Riluske · Post by **Riluske** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:31 pm

Hey guys.

I just bought a new Stella 4T, and I love it. However, I'm finding the learning curve to be quite a pain....

Besides the fact that I have fallen twice, I wanted to ask about stalling. My Stella is great at lower speeds (thinking about 35mph max) but when I get it higher, like 40 or 45, the engine does not like coming down. It almost always stalls at a stop, and if it doesn't, it does not like going down into 3rd, even around 10-15mph.

The first time it happened, I did some damage to myself and the bike. I shifted down into third, and the engine and wheel locked up, sending me and the bike over. Some damage to the bike, but nothing more than scratches. I was banged up, and my leg took some damage (Can't feel anything from my knee to half way down the bottom part of my leg). After riding a bit more (had to get the scooter home) it stalled out when I was coming to a stop. I could not get any gas into the engine no matter how hard I pulled the throttle. Just slowly came to a stop.

I was out for a ride today, and when I got it over 40, I came to a stop and stalled out, it took a while to get it started again, but I managed to. Then when I was headed home I went to turn a corner, got my speed down from about 45 to around 20mph, and shifted down to third. The bike locked up, but I managed to keep my balance (I was going really slow and eased off the clutch). Same thing happened a little farther down the road. I was coming to a stop after going about 40-45mph, and after slowing to around 15-20mph, I shifted to third, let off the clutch, and the bike locked up again. Once again I managed to keep myself up.

I'm a little worried about the bike. I would certainly like to take it over 35mph. I've gotten it up there before without issues, it just happens every now and then. I just don't know how much more damage my body or the scooter can take...

Maximus53 · Post by **Maximus53** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:29 pm

Sorry to hear about your struggles... I picked up my new 4T a couple weeks ago and the only stalling at stop signs i had was due to the scoot not being warmed up all the way. There was an issue where my choke was not fully opening, so when i started on a cold day it would take a long time to warm up and due to my impatience i would start riding and the scooter would die everytime i stopped giving it throttle and came to a stop in neutral.

It doesn't sound quite the same as what you are experiencing and I have had mine up to about 45-50 so far with out any issues.

Have you asked the dealer where you bought it about this? The 2 year warranty really sold me on my final decision.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:30 pm

May need the idle screw adjusted, or may have a fuel petcock problem. Ride it back by the dealer and have them check it out for you. The Stellas do have a LOT of little things that get sorted out by 300-500 miles. Be careful wear your gear (helmet jacket gloves) and get that stall looked at

Alo make sure you don't fill the tank to the very top when you fill up. The 4T's have an issue with fuel getting in the emissions system if the tank is filled to the top. Also, if the dealer didn't do it, get them to get you a vented 2T gas cap.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:43 pm

Is this your first time with a manual vehicle? Your wheel locking up when shifting to third sounds to me like excessive engine braking due to too low rpm for the gear selected. Consider that you slow down faster than the speedometer can show, by the time you are down to 15mph you are well below the RPM range for third gear. Downshifting takes time to master, next time try shifting down to third sooner or if you must wait till you are at 15mph bring your RPM up by giving some throttle just before downshifting.

Riluske · Post by **Riluske** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:51 pm

Lokky wrote:Is this your first time with a manual vehicle? Your wheel locking up when shifting to third sounds to me like excessive engine braking due to too low rpm for the gear selected. Consider that you slow down faster than the speedometer can show, by the time you are down to 15mph you are well below the RPM range for third gear. Downshifting takes time to master, next time try shifting down to third sooner or if you must wait till you are at 15mph bring your RPM up by giving some throttle just before downshifting.

It is my first manual that I have owned, but I have driven in the past. I'm certainly not used to down shifting though. Is it really possible that I can come down from 45 in 4th to a rpm to low for 3rd? I usually try to take my time slowing down, but I'll have to try slowing down faster? I guess that this idea is pretty scary at the moment due to my fear of falling again.

Also, do you really slow down faster than the speedometer can show? I had absolutely no idea. The dealer gave me a run threw of the stella, and said that he wouldn't let me on the road without telling me about driving it, but he never told me that...

Honestly, I'm a little terrified of the thing at the moment. I'll definitely get back on. I'm a pretty stubborn individual. I know that it's really bad for the engine to not go through the gears while stopping, but I almost just want to grab the clutch, throw it in neutral while braking and come to a stop....

Riluske · Post by **Riluske** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:33 pm

Alright, so I went back out and tried slowing down faster and shifting down earlier. Got up to around 40-45 and then slowed down much faster. That seems to have helped a lot, but I didn't ride for too long. I'll have to try it at higher speeds and after longer rides.

I have to say, it's definitely a beast with a huge learning curve and no forgiveness. I'm just glad that nothing has happened at high speeds yet.

jmer1234 · Post by **jmer1234** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:40 am

My biggest question is, why is the engine and rear wheel locking up? You should be able to downshift, and even if the engine stalls it should still turn over from the torque applied by the drive wheel.

Am I wrong in this? I would be really concerned about it, especially if you have dumped the bike a couple of times now.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:11 am

jmer1234 wrote:My biggest question is, why is the engine and rear wheel locking up? You should be able to downshift, and even if the engine stalls it should still turn over from the torque applied by the drive wheel.

Am I wrong in this? I would be really concerned about it, especially if you have dumped the bike a couple of times now.

If your wheel is spinning too fast compared to the engine's revs, the moment you engage the clutch the wheel will act as if it locked.

It is like running on the beach and into the sea. The moment you enter the sea your legs will encounter a much higher resistance while your upper body is still moving forward due to inertia, thus causing you to fall over.

This is normal and can be avoided by downshifting at higher revs and engaging the clutch slowly rather than just releasing the lever.

By the way, the exact opposite of this is seen when engaging the clutch while the engine is being revved too hard. The sudden jolt of power to the rear wheel compared to its discrete velocity with the ground are what causes a wheelie.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:18 am

After you downshift are you giving her gas as you release the clutch? I have had some tire skids in the past when I was smooth enough with that action. Think about how you drive a manual in a car, you always give gas as you release the clutch.. This may not be the issue, but it will be nice if it is, as it's easy to correct.

Edit* I see that's been covered already, but yeah that's the first thing I thought of. IE. "What Lokky said".

badbodhisattva · Post by **badbodhisattva** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:35 am

I feel for you. That's the roughest new riding experience I've heard. But having learned manuals since a kid on old tractors, trucks and cars, the Stella really surprised me. I thought it would be a cinch, but it was a shock. Not being able to just drop into neutral from any gear is one thing, but the force and effort it took to shift at the right speed was crazy. Before mine was broken in, it rev'd real hard occasionally and didn't want to come down. So mine was the opposite problem. My first and only stall was when my clutch cable snapped.

Hope you get back on because it should get better once you get it checked out by your dealer. I just watched the speedometer like a hawk and shifted right at the manual's recommended speed while scooting through my subdivision for 4 months. I just hit 2000 miles, and shifting is not only effortless but deeply satisfying.

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:07 pm

Keep in mind you don't have to downshift at all when coming to a stop sign. You have brakes for a reason. You will need to become more accustomed to selecting the proper gear when you are slowing down for turns. It takes a little practice, don't get frustrated and wear all your safety gear all the time. You've picked a fun ride, have fun!

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:07 pm

Keep in mind you don't have to downshift at all when coming to a stop sign. You have brakes for a reason. You will need to become more accustomed to selecting the proper gear when you are slowing down for turns. It takes a little practice, don't get frustrated and wear all your safety gear all the time. You've picked a fun ride, have fun!

Riluske · Post by **Riluske** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:00 pm

Keith wrote:Keep in mind you don't have to downshift at all when coming to a stop sign. You have brakes for a reason. You will need to become more accustomed to selecting the proper gear when you are slowing down for turns. It takes a little practice, don't get frustrated and wear all your safety gear all the time. You've picked a fun ride, have fun!

Wait, really? I don't have to downshift at all? The dealer that sold it to me told me that I was supposed to run through all the gears when stopping, and that not doing so was bad for the engine. The scooter certainly can't come to a stop in 4th, and I'm almost positive that I'm not supposed to through it is neutral.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:07 pm

Riluske wrote:
Keith wrote:Keep in mind you don't have to downshift at all when coming to a stop sign. You have brakes for a reason. You will need to become more accustomed to selecting the proper gear when you are slowing down for turns. It takes a little practice, don't get frustrated and wear all your safety gear all the time. You've picked a fun ride, have fun!
Wait, really? I don't have to downshift at all? The dealer that sold it to me told me that I was supposed to run through all the gears when stopping, and that not doing so was bad for the engine. The scooter certainly can't come to a stop in 4th, and I'm almost positive that I'm not supposed to through it is neutral.

I mostly downshift, but not always. I don't know what the difference is to your bike, but I do remember that when it was new it was pretty difficult to pull the clutch and just zip through to neutral. That's easy now that it's worn in. I can imagine a really bad result might occur if you were cruising at like 45 or so, tried to whip through to neutral and caught first or second instead. Of course if you have doubt about whether or not you made it to neutral, you could just hold the clutch in till you roll to a stop..

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:46 am

Downshifting through 3rd, 2nd, etc. implies that you are releasing the clutch in each gear as you slow down. Obviously you wouldn't come to a stop in 4th gear and then attempt to shift to 1st as you're sitting at a stop sign. As you slow down you need to shift to whichever gear would now be appropriate for the speed your are going to be traveling then release the clutch solely in that gear. Downshifting and releasing the clutch in each gear for purposes of slowing down is just excessive wear for the clutch, clutch cable, and gears. It may seem cool or you may just like driving that way but it isn't necessary when you've got brakes designed for that purpose. Hey, whatever floats your boat......

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:36 am

There are pros and cons.

On the pro side, if you downshift to a suitable gear as you slow down, you will hopefully be in an appropriate gear to apply power should you have a sudden need to accelerate away from a hazardous situation. You'd be in a tight spot if you were stuck in first or fourth.

On the downside, you have to learn to do it right, that is, applying some throttle so that when you release the clutch after you downshift, the clutch halves are at nearly the same speed and not jerking you immediately slower or faster. Sudden dramatic deceleration, especially in a turn, can be treacherous. Not only is 'synchronized' downshifting more likely to help keep you vertical, it also saves wear on the clutch. Clutches are expensive to replace, but brake shoes and pads are cheap, relatively speaking. Find a good balance.

Tack One. · Post by **Tack One.** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm

I'm new to stella and shifting as well. what you're probably experiencing as mentioned above is not rev matching the bike when you change gears.

perhaps an easy way to explain it is this. if you come into a lower gear from a higher gear you need to make sure you enter the lower gear, towards the top of that gear's speed, which means adding a blip of throttle so that you don't switch into that gear with the engine spinning slowly. a slow engine speed entering a lower gear will cause you to drive at the bottom of that gear, not that the top of it which is what you're doing, as you're slowing down from fast to slow.

the bike probably isn't locking up, but it will brake super hard as you lug the shit out of that gear by taking a high speed which would be at the top of that gears speed ratio, and forcing it to enter the gear at the bottom of it's speed ratio.

as I come to stops I engage the clutch, and roll the gears downward to the appropriate gear as I slow down in the event that the light turns green and I have to go again. for stops, I roll it all the way down as the speeds slow down, and sit in first with the clutch still engaged ready for take off.

to practice, try taking it into third, and as you slow down a bit roll it into second gear, and just before you release the clutch, rev the engine slightly to get the RPMs up so that you're entering the faster top part of the gear below, so the transition is seemless.

Riluske · Post by **Riluske** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm

Perhaps I need a better understanding of when to shift, because I feel as through trying to shift according to speed has gotten me in trouble. Sorry for the needed continual clarification and lesson on manual transmissions....

The first time I took a spill was right after I left the dealership. I saw the light turn red, and while in forth, I eased off the throttle and coasted down to around 20mph from about 35. I didn't use the brake really, I just let the engine slow down. At around 20 (the high limit for third is around 22 according to the manual), I switched to third. My thought is that the gradual slowing down slowed the engine rotation down to far for third gear, so when I shifted, the wheel and transmission seized up. I tried this two other times (just let off the throttle and very slowly come down in speed) and it seized, luckily, I was able to catch it and not go over.

However, when I braked more abruptly and listened to the engine, I found that I ended up shifting into third at a much higher speed (generally around 30mph), but it felt great. There wasn't a excessive engine breaking, and it all felt very smooth.

I am also finding that distance is much more difficult to judge on a scooter. The times that I just let off the throttle and slowed down, I was probably doing it to soon, and left myself with way to much room (didn't even have to use the brake). However, this is not a problem I need help with, this is just an issue that I will resolve while riding.

My issue is that I am currently uncertain of how all of this works, and I don't want that uncertainty to hit me again while riding in traffic. I am currently unsure of how to gradually stop, as the only times I tried, I seized the transmission. Perhaps I need to listen to the transmission more than looking at the speedometer. I also heard that the speedometer can't always keep up with your braking, in which case, I may have been at a lower speed than I thought, and that caused the transmission to seize, as well as the thought that I was shifting at to high a speed.

Thanks for all the newbie help....

Maximus53 · Post by **Maximus53** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:18 pm

I try to remember what the bike sounds/feels like when I shift up a gear say from third to fourth, then when I want to go back to third, I slow to the appropriate speed, engage the clutch, switch to third with clutch still held add throttle to make the bike sound feel like I remember from 3 to 4 then EASE out clutch. Once in gear you can let off the throttle to slow further if desired.

It's all about feel.

Rudie · Post by **Rudie** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:17 pm

This is very confusing. Are people saying they release the clutch between each downshift when they are slowing to a stop? Because I sure don't do that I just hold in the clutch and slowly work my way to 1st. Is this right?

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:52 pm

Rudie wrote:This is very confusing. Are people saying they release the clutch between each downshift when they are slowing to a stop? Because I sure don't do that I just hold in the clutch and slowly work my way to 1st. Is this right?

Proper downshifting technique involved releasing the clutch at each gear as you come to a stop.
This is done for two main reasons:
1. Engine braking.
2. Having the proper gear selected and engaged.

Engine braking refers to how, when your throttle is closed, the engine slows the bike down to match road speed with engine RPM. This is the main force behind stopping your scooter in anything but a panic stop. Brakes should not be your main stopping mechanism on a manual vehicle outside of panic stops. This has the added advantage of making your brakes last longer and making it more likely that they will be in good conditions for panic stops.
When properly done, engine braking does not overstress the clutch as was suggested above, it will only cause damage if you are selecting the wrong gear causing the engine to seize as described by OP.

Having the proper gear selected is very important in case you need to suddenly reapply power to your wheel for any reason. If your clutch is released as you slow down and you are in the proper gear all you have to do is twist the throttle. If you are holding the clutch in however you need to first release it, which takes a precious fraction of a second, and might discover yourself in an inappropriate gear for your speed (causing either a seize or super-sluggish acceleration which prevents you from getting out of whatever tight spot you may be in).

Finally it must be remembered that by holding the clutch in your engine is disengaged from the input shaft and is free to maintain higher rpm while slowing down, which may cause overheating problems (the manual specifically says not to ride with the clutch engaged to prevent overheating).

Will you still be able to ride a Stella by squeezing the clutch as you come to a stop? Sure.
Is it the proper and safest way to ride it? Not by a long shot.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:56 pm

Riluske wrote: However, when I braked more abruptly and listened to the engine, I found that I ended up shifting into third at a much higher speed (generally around 30mph), but it felt great. There wasn't a excessive engine breaking, and it all felt very smooth.

3rd gear on a broken in bike will carry you anywhere from 25MPH upward to 45MPH (at least on a 2T). The speed indicated on the manual is for the breaking in period only and are not directly related to the RPM that your engine is running at. Downshifting however is directly related to it.
Once your engine is broken in you will comfortably redline the engine by shifting at a higher RPM range than in the broken in phase, whereas downshifting will remain more or less the same.

Rudie · Post by **Rudie** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:20 am

Got it! I will repent of my ways. I swear from this day forward to be a better Stella driver.

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:54 am

This is very confusing. Are people saying they release the clutch between each downshift when they are slowing to a stop? Because I sure don't do that I just hold in the clutch and slowly work my way to 1st. Is this right?

Exactly!

Lovelandstella · Post by **Lovelandstella** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:25 pm

Riluske, I am soo sorry for your experience.
I have good news!
your instincts are correct- you just have some strange/confusing/incorrect info.

let me clarify:

Lokky wrote:
Rudie wrote:This is very confusing. Are people saying they release the clutch between each downshift when they are slowing to a stop? Because I sure don't do that I just hold in the clutch and slowly work my way to 1st. Is this right?
Proper downshifting technique ...

Lokky, I absolutely agree that what you described is the proper downshifting technique and why it's good and how to do it.
BUT, in the name of safety for new Stella drivers- in particular to the OP Riluske, I will mention that: Downshifting like that (releasing the clutch at each gear as you come to a stop) is not necessary while driving a Stella 4T.
it's kind of a moderate to possibly expert maneuver on a scooter that no newby should be trying, for: 1) the immediate damage they can do to the scooter when doing it wrong, 2) the little bit damage they can do to the scooter each time when doing it just slightly wrong (aka heavier "Wear and tear" damage than normal) 3) and, well, the possibility of it giving the scooter a "locking up" feel to it and have the newby rider fall off and hurt themselves or worse.

Riluske, It seems like your dealership somehow instilled in you a fear of slowing down the scoot WITHOUT 1st engaging every single gear on the way down.
here is what you said that caught my eye:

Riluske wrote:...The dealer gave me a run threw of the Stella, and said that he wouldn't let me on the road without telling me about driving it... Honestly, I'm a little terrified of the thing at the moment... I know that it's really bad for the engine to not go through the gears while stopping...

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but Where in Phillip McCaleb's green Scooter Earth did you hear that?

stopping without going through the gears is NOT "really bad" for the engine- it’s not even "kind of" bad for the Engine.
somehow you seem to have this idea that you cannot stop the scooter EVER without 1st running through every single gear with the penalty being engine damage?
If I am misunderstanding your view of downshifting – please correct me.

Hear me out,
What if someone cuts you off? Are you still supposed to down shift? What if an animal runs in the middle of the road? What if anything happens that makes you apply the brakes without downshifting? Did the dealership lead you to believe that you would definitely damage your engine?
If so, that means the only way to stop suddenly is to damage the engine? How many total sudden stops is the vehicle good for? Would it even last a years worth of people cutting you off? (not in my town, those bunch of SUV jerks)

even more confusion:

Riluske wrote:... I ... want to grab the clutch, throw it in neutral while braking and come to a stop...

then do it!
it’s not bad- it’s what I do 20+ times a day!
Or to be more accurate, I do like Rudie does: “I just hold in the clutch and slowly work my way to 1st” (or whatever gear is the best for the speed/action I am about to do stopping, turning, etc.)
Am I alone in this idea Stella riders??
-are any of us doing what I and Rudie do? or do ALL other Stella riders engage Every single gear every single time we slow down from 4th gear?
please respond! we need to clear up confusion to prevent injuries

what I am sure your dealership meant was that “you should not shift gears While at a stop”. A) this is hard on the clutch cables, among other things and B) it's hard to do anyway.
the wheels need to be moving forward when moving the gear selector. don't believe me? try it at a stop with the engine turned off. not recommended for your clutch cables - but it wouldn't cause any more damage than your rough downshifting has already done so far.

My solution suggestion for you, Riluske:
* Call your dealership to clear up what they told you (you don’t even need to take the scoot in- not for this conversation anyway) just talk to them “voice to voice” and tell them exactly what you think they told you. I think you will find that there was a misunderstanding.
-mention the fact that you fell off twice and they should make every effort to make sure they clear up all confusion.

"Down shifting" is a bit of a sensitive subject for scooter riders, and even somewhat new to the "stella realm" as downshifting on a 2T can actually cause damage even when done right- due to the inherent mechanics of a 2t engine. [whoo boy can't wait for the rehash on THAT comment]

(hugs to all)

Keith wrote:Keep in mind you don't have to downshift at all when coming to a stop sign. You have brakes for a reason. You will need to become more accustomed to selecting the proper gear when you are slowing down ...

This is EXACTLY correct. Keith you get 5 points!
and for a person who has already dumped their new Stella a couple times trying to down shift, Riluske, I think you should lean more on THIS advice.

Rudie wrote:Got it! I will repent of my ways. I swear from this day forward to be a better Stella driver.

please do NOT repent in your ways- you are doing nothing wrong. scoot however you like!

change if you want, don't change if you want. but don't feel bad/wrong either way.

Riluske wrote:...
I have to say, it's definitely a beast with a huge learning curve and no forgiveness. I'm just glad that nothing has happened at high speeds yet.

The good news, Riluske, is that there appears to be nothing inherently wrong with the scooter.
It was just some confusing/misunderstood advice from your dealership that you followed to a “T” even to the point of making yourself fall off the scoot twice- If that is not a testament to your level of commitment, I don’t know what is.

When you stop trying to engage every single gear (ie “down shifting”) and instead engage the clutch, start to apply the brakes and rotate the left handlebar to the correct gear you need- while keeping the clutch engaged, ready to release the clutch and engage the correct gear at any time needed, then you will find that the Stella is VERY fun and forgiving and a blast to ride- Unlike your prior attempts.
AND you'll be able to start up in 1st or shift to 1st in a split second from a stop light without holding up traffic behing you (which can happen if you stop in 4th and have a hard time rolling that sucker back down to 1st while at a stop)
Then after a couple weeks at least of nailing the shifting and brake slowing down and all that – THEN you can try the down shifting as Lokky is talking about - and that can come in handy. But it is not the thing to try when you are a noob and you’ve already been thrown off twice.
...in fact, possibly wait even longer a couple months - or even a year.
it is NOT a "necessary skill" like starting, stopping and turning.
your "new owner pain" should be in your wrist from shifting so much because you love it so much you can't stop riding it -and in your cheeks from smiling non-stop for a few days.. NOT from road rash. you know what I mean?

We care about everyone here ay Modern Buddy and we don’t want you to get hurt. And I certainly don’t want any other new riders to misunderstand our “opinions about down shifting” to mean that one must sacrifice their body and their scooter (literally ”blood, sweat and gears”) simply to master the art of down shifting BEFORE they master the art of getting from “point A” to “point B” safely.

do any of the even more experienced riders agree with me? any disagree?

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:36 pm

Lovelandstella wrote: Am I alone in this idea Stella riders.- are any of us doing what I an Rudie do or does ALL other Stella riders engage Every single gear every single time we slow down form 4th gear?

You are not alone! I mostly downshift, because while it was breaking in, it was hard to get through the gears without taking them one at a time. I got used to it and kind of enjoy it to be honest. But, probably 30% of the time I don't. I either skip 1 or 2 gears because I feel my braking got me to a lower speed than I anticipated or because I'm just lazy. Now that the shifter feels looser, I can actually just zip through them right to neutral when I feel like it.

However- My brother in law once told me about my datsun truck, "Don't downshift. Brakes are cheap and the clutch is expensive". I think that's all good and well on four wheels, but I prefer to be in gear most of the time on a bike, just because you have better stick'em on the road, no?

Like I say, I'm about 70/30, but it's enough to say that I quite commonly don't downshift all the way through.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:59 pm

Riluske, where are you based?

If in LA, CA I can give you a quick demo how these things should be ridden.
If not, maybe someone else with experience in your neighbourhood can do so.
It seems really uncool for the dealer to set you loose on a bike that you are completely unfamiliar with.

Not entirely off topic, but do you have a moto license/had any training?

Tack One. · Post by **Tack One.** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:43 pm

I feel slightly confused again, so many opinions.

does anybody with way more experience than me do this:

when slowing down (I drive in really busy stop and go downtown traffic) I engage the clutch and brakes at the same time, roll the gears downwards as I slow. if I stop I'm already in 1st waiting, if traffic picks up, I'm at the right gear for the speed I'm traveling and I engage the gear and continue.

this does mean you end up driving short distances as you slow with the clutch engaged, rather than hit each gear on the way, but traffic is really unpredictable and I often don't have time to engage each gear before a decision must be made about stopping or continuing.

I've been on the bike nearly 3 weeks now, and am finding the learning curve to be pretty easy, but I still on occasion stall the bike by accident which I find really irritating.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:49 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with this approach - you're coasting with the clutch pulled, and clicking down to the lower speed-appropriate gears in case you need to make a getaway. This approach eats (cheaper) brakes a little quicker, but puts no wear on the (more expensive) clutch.

I take this approach in my MINI - baby the clutch (which could cost >$1000 to replace) at the cost of brake pads (for which I have free lifetime replacement coverage).

Maximus53 · Post by **Maximus53** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:27 pm

Tack One. wrote: does anybody with way more experience than me do this:

when slowing down (I drive in really busy stop and go downtown traffic) I engage the clutch and brakes at the same time, roll the gears downwards as I slow. if I stop I'm already in 1st waiting, if traffic picks up, I'm at the right gear for the speed I'm traveling and I engage the gear and continue.

This is what I do as well. Have had the Stella for 2 weeks now with about 300 miles... but far from an expert.

Rudie · Post by **Rudie** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:37 pm

Okay, I am really glad I am not the only one who shifts this way. I tried to engage each gear when slowing to a stop and it was very difficult (no lock ups like OP though). While I definantly see the advantages of engine breaking in certain scenarios (I.e. slowing for a turn) it just doesn't feel practical in an urban enviroment to stop that way. I also feel like I am putting undue stress on the clutch and engine when I do it as well.

Tack One. · Post by **Tack One.** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:41 pm

I was told that the stella engine doesn't have enough pressure to properly break using the engine breaking technique a 1000cc sport bike might. and although that can be used with a motorcycle it shouldn't be used on a scoot.

it also seems more dangerous and I can't actually see any practical advantage, but again, I'm new to it and just doing what feels most practical.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:02 pm

Am I wrong in thinking that you'll have better traction though if your scoot is in gear most of the time as opposed to coasting in neutral (or with the clutch in)? This is the reason I mostly try to keep downshifting. Also as you get practiced at it, you don't get too much engine breaking unless you want to.
If I'm wrong, I'd probably just quit the practice altogether and save clutch, but if I'm right about the traction benefits, I'd just as soon write that off as one of the costs of doing things safely..

lorenajack · Post by **lorenajack** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:40 pm

On my Stella, when I approach a stop sign or red light, I ALWAYS pull in the clutch and move the shift lever to the Neutral position. If the light changes to green as I approach, I then move the shift to the appropriate position for the speed I want. I would suggest NEVER use a downshift to slow the bike. Always use brakes instead, with that clutch lever pulled.

jungle tim · Post by **jungle tim** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:43 pm

Tack One. wrote:
does anybody with way more experience than me do this:

when slowing down (I drive in really busy stop and go downtown traffic) I engage the clutch and brakes at the same time, roll the gears downwards as I slow. if I stop I'm already in 1st waiting, if traffic picks up, I'm at the right gear for the speed I'm traveling and I engage the gear and continue.

Interestingly enough the scooter dealer I bought my stella from advised me very strongly against having it sit at lights in gear with the disengaged...

The reason he gave was that this will wear the clutch - very vague i know but the guy has many years of experience. (Barry from SF Scooter)

I personally tend to twist through the gears to neutral, let out the clutch, rest my hand, and then when the lights go green ... well you know what happens next.

Tack One. · Post by **Tack One.** » Tue May 01, 2012 3:48 am

I dunno, it shouldn't wear the clutch as far as I can tell, but who knows.

motor cycle safety courses say you should stay in gear, but I do both really depending on how long the light might be. I've accidentally had the bike hit into second while in neutral so I've been happier with the clutch engaged and knowing I'm in control of it.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Tue May 01, 2012 3:51 am

Tack One. wrote:I dunno, it shouldn't wear the clutch as far as I can tell, but who knows.

motor cycle safety courses say you should stay in gear, but I do both really depending on how long the light might be. I've accidentally had the bike hit into second while in neutral so I've been happier with the clutch engaged and knowing I'm in control of it.

Yeah I really do not think it causes wear of the clutch. If anything it might make the cable sag a little earlier but it's easy enough to keep adjusted properly.

I do agree with the MSF course teaching of staying in first gear at lights to get out of the way quickly if needed. If I need to pop into neutral for whatever reason (long light, need to scratch, etc) I will first check my mirrors to make sure nobody is barreling down my way or wait for a car to be stopped behind me.

Rudie · Post by **Rudie** » Tue May 01, 2012 7:43 pm

Lokky wrote:
I do agree with the MSF course teaching of staying in first gear at lights to get out of the way quickly if needed. If I need to pop into neutral for whatever reason (long light, need to scratch, etc) I will first check my mirrors to make sure nobody is barreling down my way or wait for a car to be stopped behind me.

Also, there is the issue that sometimes when you are at a full stop it is difficult to get into 1st gear on the Stella (unless you roll forward a bit or rev the the engine). I usually stay in 1st at a light just because I don't want to tick off the cars behind me when it takes me an extra 3 seconds to get into gear.