Sick Buddy

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:45 am

Well, I'm open to suggestions now...

My Buddy has been running very poorly for about a week now...coughing and sputtering badly. I have completely disassembled and cleaned the carburetor. No change. I have replaced the fuel filter. No change. I even pulled the vacuum-petcock and checked it out. No change. I drained the fuel tank to check for flotsam and jetsom in the tank. Nothing. The plug says it is running too lean, suggesting fuel starvation. I am at a loss....anyone? Anyone?

--Keys

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:17 am

You covered everything I'd look at and probably more.

After you drained the tank did you refill with the same gas or get new gas? The only other thing that comes immediately to mind is bad gas.

If your troubles span two different tankfuls from different stations, this response can be deleted.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:28 am

Check the air filter?

Dibber · Post by **Dibber** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:28 pm

Hay Keys, I got your T-shirt, looks great, thanks.
Looking in the repair manual is could be one of several things such as faulty CDI, Faulty Pulse Generator, Carb adjustment, Carb heat protector gasket broke, carb locking nut loose, carb gasket crack, carb hose ruptured, AC Magneto , Ignition Coil, H.T. Coil faulty or short circuit, Main switch abnormal, ACV Faulty, Air pipe is blocked or damaged, Exhaust plugged. Valves seat worn or rings worn (I know you have lots of miles on it). Good luck and let us know the outcome.

PS. Anyone else reading this, you owe yourself to check out the Skutergruven T-shirts from Keys. They are Gruvy.

bikebuda · Post by **bikebuda** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:50 pm

there are a few things to check

first a fuel flow test on the fuel valve
the top line is fuel out and the bottom line is for vacuum how you check this is get two lengths of fuel line about two feet each hook them both to the fuel valve the upper going to a jar the lower apply vacuum to it ( suck on it )

the valve should open and allow a quart to pass in about 45 seconds

if it flows good at first then starts to rapidly slow down you probably have a cloged vent
if flows slow all the time the valve filter might be cloged
if no fuel, bad valve

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:49 pm

Yep. Checked the air filter (an unlikely source of the trouble, but checked anyway...). And yep, did a test of the valve. Even considered replacing it with a manual petcock if it had tested bad.

--Keys

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:48 am

Well, the Red Baron is now at the dealer's. I cleaned the carb, replaced the fuel filter, the air filter is only a month old, I changed the oil about a week and a half ago, I drained the gas tank and replace the gas with new, good quality gas, I made sure the fuel lines were clear, checked to make sure the vacuum petcock was operating correctly, replaced the spark plug and set the valves. I'm slap outa ideas, so it went to the dealer. Maybe its an electrical problem...

--Keys

Elm Creek Smith · Post by **Elm Creek Smith** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:41 am

As I mention in another post, Keys, mine just died. It turned out it was the pulse generator on the stator. Tulsa Scooters replaced the stator/pulse generator (they can't be separated and replaced separately) under warranty, and I'm good to go.

Hope you get the Baron back, soon.

ECS

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:49 am

Keys, didn’t you early on have a stator problem as well?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:16 am

We originally thought it was a stator problem...just turned out to be a bad ground from the coil.

--Keys

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:51 am

Actually, my Vespa sputters and coughs when the rollers start to go, so add that to the list of possibles.

Too many causes for the same symptoms!

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:59 am

I replaced them about a month ago....

--Keys

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:46 am

So waa happin?

Is it still down?
Prognosis?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:55 am

Okay. They called me two days ago to say it was fixed. I went over to Prescott today to pick it up. It WASN'T fixed. I took it for a ride and it was down on power a bit and still "chugging" on the top end. As it warmed up, the "chugging" got worse. We checked the spark plug and it was running EXTREMELY lean. Jim pulled the carb and cleaned it. I rode it. No change. Plug still white. Jim replaced the 92 main jet with a 95. I rode it. No change...maybe a little worse. Plug still horribly lean.

Bottom line; I left it there again. They are going to do a "bleed down" test to check for ring/cylinder integrity and reset the valves. To start. It REALLY is a fuel starvation problem, but there is good flow out of the tank, into the carb, and out of the carb (floats are also set correctly). It's a puzzler for sure.

--Keys

louie · Post by **louie** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:14 pm

hate to hear it Keys. hope she's up and runnin soon.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:49 pm

Now I'm seriously annoyed!! My dealer called today and told me everything he had done to my scooter to get it running correctly. He just RE-did everything I already did, except he used a bigger main jet. Not much change. It still is running lean at wide-open. This suggests to me that the rubber diaphram in the carburetor has lost integity somewhere. A tiny hole or tear would be my guess, although he and I both checked. Sometimes they're small enough you can't see them, but big enough to affect running.

So I suggested (since nothing else worked) he take a carb from one of his new Buddys and just try it on mine. If it made the right difference, just put it back on the new one and I'd order one. He refuses to compromise his new ones for my old one, so the answer was "NO"! It would be the cheapest (in both time and money) way to test.

He put a huge 100 size jet in and it then started to show some color on the plug at wide-open, but ran like crap with the throttle closed. This tells me it is running really rich at idle and low throttle (big jet) and getting enough (barely) at full throttle. THEREFORE, the slide is not going all the way up when the throttle is applied. THEREFORE it is being prevented from doing so by.....again, my guess, the diaphram is compromised.

He is insisting that it has something to do with my altered exhaust to which my response is; it has run beautifully for 10 months...WHY the massive change 2 weeks ago?

Oh well, I'm just gonna take it home tomorrow and try to do something myself since he won't do the only meaningful test. PLUS I'll have to pay him for accomplishing nothing.

Whatever,
--Keys

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:24 am

Rats! Honestly, it sounds like you understand how the carb works better than your dealer does. Can you just buy a rebuild kit for that carb?

vitaminC · Post by **vitaminC** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:30 am

jrsjr wrote:Rats! Honestly, it sounds like you understand how the carb works better than your dealer does. Can you just buy a rebuild kit for that carb?

+1 The diaphragm can't be too expensive a part, though you'll probably have to wait many weeks for it to arrive

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:45 am

Keys, I PM'd you with a couple ideas for getting your hand on a used carb.

I can understand why your dealer might not want to swap out for a part from a new Buddy. But at a certain point, they should at least contact Genuine and tell them about the problem to see if they have any suggestions.

Otherwise, your Buddy is still under warranty and you have a right to ask them to replace it if they're unable to fix the problem.

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:32 am

Yea;
Why doesn’t the warranty cover a new carb?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:50 am

The warranty only covers BROKEN or non-functional (from the factory) items...not worn out items. I understand that. Kinda like expecting them to replace tires I've just worn out. I don't mind paying for a fix...I just want it FIXED!!

As for a new diaphram, I'm going to check in with my favorite dealer in Tucson tomorrow. Maybe they'll have a complete rebuild kit. The other option I'm looking at is I have a friend who has a 24mm (same size as comes on the Buddy) slide-throttle carb (instead of a CV) that he's going to let me borrow. If it works, I'll buy it from him. You usually con't get quite as good mileage from a slide-throttle, but they are easier (IMHO) to tune and don't have a diaphram to tear...

If it works, I'll buy it from him.

--Keys

lobsterman · Post by **lobsterman** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:23 pm

keys,

just a thought, but are there any other Buddys in the group you ride with sometimes? maybe you could borrow their carb for an hour and try it on yours?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:15 pm

After I made my last post here, I went to work at 7 pm as usual. Got off about 2 am. Went home, slept a little and went to breakfast with a friend. We were leaving the cafe when I got a call from the dealer. Apparently he'd been in contact to Genuine (not sure who initiated the call, here...) and THEY said they'd be sending him a new carb to put on my scooter. So, maybe next week I'll be up and running again. Makes me wonder which party read my rant....

And by the way, thanks to Dave at Scooter Invasion in Tempe and Ericalm for their ideas and offers of assistance.

--Keys

metty · Post by **metty** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:27 pm

Call me stupid but I've never really seen a diaphram in a carb. You have needle valves and jets. Floats in the carb bowl. A diaphram is in fuel pumps. Is this a different kind of carb than most?

vitaminC · Post by **vitaminC** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:38 pm

metty wrote:Call me stupid but I've never really seen a diaphram in a carb. You have needle valves and jets. Floats in the carb bowl. A diaphram is in fuel pumps. Is this a different kind of carb than most?

The needle sits in the diaphragm.

If the engine must be operated in any orientation (for example a chain saw), a float chamber cannot work. Instead, a diaphragm chamber is used. A flexible diaphragm forms one side of the fuel chamber and is arranged so that as fuel is drawn out into the engine the diaphragm is forced inward by ambient air pressure. The diaphragm is connected to the needle valve and as it moves inward it opens the needle valve to admit more fuel, thus replenishing the fuel as it is consumed. As fuel is replenished the diaphragm moves out due to fuel pressure and a small spring, closing the needle valve. A balanced state is reached which creates a steady fuel reservoir level, which remains constant in any orientation.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:03 pm

Metty,

If you remove the two screws holding the black plastic top piece onto your carb and remove said black plastic top piece, you will find residing there a black rubber diaphram which is molded to the slide, which in turn secures your needle for the needle jet. You carburetor works by utilizing the vacuum created by the intake to "inflate", if you will, the diaphram, thereby raising and lowering the slide. This is done mechanically in a slide-throttle carb. The type utilizing the diaphram is called a CV or Constant Velocity carburetor.

Although my description isn't totally accurate to a person well-versed in the technology, it is accuarate enough to the lay-person who just wishes a general idea of how it works.

--Keys

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:45 pm

So what happing?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:04 pm

Well, they put the new carb on and altered the airbox a bit with the 100 jets. Runs good on top but not so good down low. Put the original carb back on with the same set-up. No difference, so we determined the carb was NOT the issue like I'd suspected. I just took it home with a handful of jets to try myself.

Rode it to breakfast this morning and it did okay...still loading up at low rpm's. Got to the cafe no problem. Ate and rode it home, no problem. Rode into the garage and when I put it up on the centerstand it died and won't start now. Crap!

--Keys

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:36 pm

Is the plug still white?

bikebuda · Post by **bikebuda** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:46 pm

have you tried to adjust the idle mixture ?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:04 am

Yep. Still white and yep, readjusted the fuel mixture. HOWever, this afternoon, I may have made a major discovery. I test rode it after draining the fuel tank and replacing all the fuel lines with new...I tore apart the carb again and cleaned it thoroughly. Replaced the 100 main jet with a 95. The original is a 92 and there is no conceivable need for a 100. I then took it for a ride. Did okay until I turned to come home. It just up and died. Would run briefly then die again. I began pushing it home and a friend drove by in his pickup. Stopped and gave us a ride to my house.

I worked on it for a while and discovered that the wire to the coil that the dealer had replaced was a bit loose. I started the scooter and while it ran very poorly, it would pick up a bit when I wriggled the wire. I stripped the wire harness casing back as far as I could and cut the wire, replacing it with new wire and a new connector. Hooked it back up and VOILA! It started and ran!! No missing, no sputtering. I haven't had a chance to test ride it yet, but I'll let you know. I suspect the wire was broken inside the insulation...I'll find out tomorrow...

--Keys

jetboy · Post by **jetboy** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:48 pm

While this has been a ton of misery and fristration for you, I want to say thanks for your tenacity. I am learning much. I hope this turns out to be it!

-jetboy

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:04 pm

Wow – Hopefully that is the fix.
Little confused though – Why the white plug with bad spark?

oh and yea thanx for the updates.

coopdway · Post by **coopdway** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:26 pm

I'm curious about the fix too, but as stated, thanks for the updates. Hope this does it for you! Doug

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:31 pm

rajron wrote:Little confused though – Why the white plug with bad spark?

Same here. I would expect fouling. Hmm... Now that it seems to be running well again, is the plug still white?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:36 pm

Still don't have any answers...it's raining here today. I took it for a short spin and still got some bogging, but that may be due to the alterations the dealer did to the airbox. I'll put it back to stock and try it.

As for the plug, I too would expect it to foul if the coil wasn't hitting properly, so I'm still investigating. Soon as I get it fixed, I'll probably be selling it...

--Keys

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:11 pm

OH! selling???

louie · Post by **louie** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:48 pm

Keys wrote:Still don't have any answers...

Soon as I get it fixed, I'll probably be selling it...

--Keys

and buy a new one?
Janine

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:48 pm

Probably not. There are just too many kinds that I've never owned...and I'm the kind of guy has to try new things all the time.

Don't worry, though...you guys have become like family to me...I won't leave.

--Keys

louie · Post by **louie** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:58 pm

Keys wrote:Probably not. There are just too many kinds that I've never owned...and I'm the kind of guy has to try new things all the time.

Don't worry, though...you guys have become like family to me...I won't leave.

--Keys

OK then, as long as you stick around here.

i wouldn't dismiss anyone's need or chance to try something new and move along. I just have to put my vision of you on a...say pimped helix?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:04 am

YOU'VE been peeking!!

--Keys

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:05 pm

Speaking of. Did you see what Honda has apparently done to their '08 scooter line-up. The Elite is gone, the Reflex is gone, and the Helix is gone. Just the Ruckus, the Metro, and the the big Silver Wing.

http://powersports.honda.com/2008models/#Scooters

louie · Post by **louie** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:53 pm

Peeking

, yeah, courious for more insight. i've seen pictures of some interesting naked (? is that the term for some of the panels missing) hilixes and large elites. We've got a guy here with a stock 86 250 elite with over 35,000 miles on it. He takes it on road trips of at least 400 miles round trip, no worries.

it's courious that honda has such a jump in cc sizes in there lineup. I guess it's a niche thing.

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:08 pm

Dooglas wrote:Speaking of. Did you see what Honda has apparently done to their '08 scooter line-up. The Elite is gone, the Reflex is gone, and the Helix is gone. Just the Ruckus, the Metro, and the the big Silver Wing.

http://powersports.honda.com/2008models/#Scooters

Yeah, ind of sad to see those designs go.

Honda has some great scooter models sold in other countries that we don't get in the US. My fave is the Eterno, a 150cc 4-stroke 4-speed (yeah, I know, sluggish) that would sell in the US in the Buddy price range considering it's price in India (less than $2K). It opens up like a Mac tower (sorta) making maintenance a breeze:

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:20 pm

Dooglas wrote:Speaking of. Did you see what Honda has apparently done to their '08 scooter line-up. The Elite is gone, the Reflex is gone, and the Helix is gone. Just the Ruckus, the Metro, and the the big Silver Wing.

Honda appear to have gutted the mid-range of their 2008 USA scooter lineup. They have some interesting machines in their lineup for the EU (e.g. the DN-01 and the SH300i), but apparently we aren't going to get any of them next year. Sigh...

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:25 pm

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I believe I've prevailed against the evil "Demon of Bad Running".

I noticed a time or two, that the Red Baron would run okay while up on it's centerstand, but when I would sit on the seat and bump it to the ground, it commenced to running like...well, like bad stuff. "Hmph", I said to myself. I poked around and found what looks to be the starter relay in a little rubber "pouch" secured on prongs welded to the frame. I would wriggle that a wee bit and my "bad runnings" would commence. So, I smeared a little grease on the most protruding points on said relay and replaced my seat. Sho' nuff, the hot lead into the relay was hitting the seat box. I took my handy-dandy ratchet and 10mm socket, loosened the nut holding the hot lead and rotated it 90 degrees to starboard. I replaced the seat and, by golly, IT WORKED!!

I suspect some finishing touches will be required. Perhaps a new hot lead wire would be in order, since obviously, it's integrity has been compromised. Also, I'm gonna have to undo all the carburetion "fixes" the dealer did. Well, this time of year I guess a guy needs a project...

--Keys

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:06 pm

Not that I doubt it, I don't, but why the heck did this problem show up now after 13,000 miles? Did the seat pan maybe bend downwards a little during that time? I wonder if any big volume genuine dealers have seen this problem on any other bikes? Are the 2007 bike's relay mounted in the same location?

Inquiring minds want to know!!!

polianarchy · Post by **polianarchy** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:47 pm

jrsjr wrote:Not that I doubt it, I don't, but why the heck did this problem show up now after 13,000 miles? Did the seat pan maybe bend downwards a little during that time? I wonder if any big volume genuine dealers have seen this problem on any other bikes? Are the 2007 bike's relay mounted in the same location?

Inquiring minds want to know!!!

Is it just me, or does Keys' mileage increase exponentially every time someone else cites it? Because I coulda sworn I read yesterday he was at a mere 12k. It's like the modern scooterist version of a fish tale.

I'm only at 4160, so it's not like I know anything about it....

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:10 pm

polianarchy wrote:Is it just me, or does Keys' mileage increase exponentially every time someone else cites it? Because I coulda sworn I read yesterday he was at a mere 12k. It's like the modern scooterist version of a fish tale.

That may be my bad. I was just citing a number from a PM concerning the Cannonball thread. Hmm... thinking about it, though, it seems sort of unlikely that the number would ever go down.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:23 pm

Actually, I had the rear tire changed at 12,000 miles. My odometer currently reads 14, 094.

Also, I suspect some bending, etc. of the plastic seat bucket due, perhaps, to many miles in the hot Arizona sun...

--Keys

Modern Buddy

Sick Buddy

Sick Buddy

check this first

diaphram

Re: diaphram

Good Luck