Cannonball Salsbury winner.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:34 pm

I'm at a rally right now checking out the Salsbury that won the Cannonball. I'm getting all the secret mods that were made! It's a pretty cool setup. But it has overheating problems.

tortoise · Post by **tortoise** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:58 pm

"Game the rules" irrelevant! For perspective consumers and current owners, the endurance of original configurations is much more interesting.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Sat May 19, 2012 7:52 pm

I'll just say it. The Cannonball was not won with honor.

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Sat May 19, 2012 9:31 pm

PeteH wrote:I'll just say it. The Cannonball was not won with honor.

I think most people feel this way.

Although, outside the context of the Cannonball, the mods and lengths the dude went to in order to create Frankenbike is almost admirable in some way.

Frankenbike will live in infamy.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Sun May 20, 2012 3:16 am

Sorry folks, but I gotta disagree. Frankenscoot is an engineering marvel, melding pieces from all over the world, with a good dose of handmade parts, into a scoot that happened to take advantage of a weakness in the handicapping formula.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Sun May 20, 2012 3:22 am

Syd wrote:Sorry folks, but I gotta disagree. Frankenscoot is an engineering marvel, melding pieces from all over the world, with a good dose of handmade parts, into a scoot that happened to take advantage of a weakness in the handicapping formula.

I partially understand this stance, but I'd have been more accepting towards it if he had done an engineering marvel with the type of engine this scooter should have rather than drop a ninja engine in there.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sun May 20, 2012 3:43 am

Lokky wrote:
Syd wrote:Sorry folks, but I gotta disagree. Frankenscoot is an engineering marvel, melding pieces from all over the world, with a good dose of handmade parts, into a scoot that happened to take advantage of a weakness in the handicapping formula.
I partially understand this stance, but I'd have been more accepting towards it if he had done an engineering marvel with the type of engine this scooter should have rather than drop a ninja engine in there.

Actually it was pretty clever. He didn't change the body one bit. It's a marvel if you think of the fact that he squeezed the biggest engine and gas tank he could into the existing confines of the body envelope.

He took the rules and ran with them. He didn't cheat in any way. He may have exposed some weaknesses in the rules, but he came up with an awesome way to take advantage of them and win.

It reminds me of the superman bike. A Brit, Graeme Obree, looked at a bicycle and thought the design was ridiculously inefficient to take advantage of the human body's strengths. So he designed a bike that put you in the best position to utilize the power of your legs and lungs. It was known as the superman position. He then proceeded to win every race he ever entered. But as he progressed to bigger and more famous races, the international biking rules organizations shut him down by making his design illegal. In otherwords, screw any advancements to the sport coming from a nobody. Stick to old antiquated designs that the famous names churn out wins with. Shame on the rules organizations for halting innovation and progress. And shame on them for punishing a brilliant young athlete for finding a way to win.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Sun May 20, 2012 4:17 am

Yeah, I read the thread. I saw the fab. Lovely engineering. But at the end of the day that bike resembled a Salsbury like a Boxster resembles a Yugo.

Were the rules broken? Of course not. It's a letter-of-the-law vs. the spirit sort of thing. The prize comes from the letter, but honor comes from the spirit. Like the sportsmanship we try to teach our kids in Little League.

Perhaps in 2014 the 'year' of the scoot will be the newer of the frame and the engine.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sun May 20, 2012 6:47 am

There has been a lot of hating of Mo and his ride.

I ran the CBR and maybe feel a little more entitled to an opinion.

Lee played by the rules, it was pointed out that there were loopholes in the rules and it was fully expected and encourged to exploit them.

Lee is not a "ringer" he is a long term scooter guy and a Salsbury guy

No way I could have pulled off that build

There were modifications to the body to help with cooling, yeah he had some cooling issues...but its the CBR...everybody has issues with something.

Lee is probably one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. I felt sorry for him for getting so much crap. I even lent him some tools.

We can get into the "spirit of it". Personally I don't think running modern 250+cc scooters is in the spirit, but I don't make the rules.

To me running vintage is the spirit of the CBR. Thats what I chose to do. I could have run the Buddy or the Burgman Ex. I CHOSE to run my 67 GT. To me part of the personal challenge was to make that thing keep running...tearing the motor apart in motel rooms and parking lots..but thats me!

The rules will probably change for 2014...thats fine with me. If I run it again...and I'm planning to...it will be vintage again.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Sun May 20, 2012 1:15 pm

Well said.

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Sun May 20, 2012 1:42 pm

"Gaming" the rules happens in everything, and good on Lee for being able to put that beast toghether.There were scoots with larger displacements in the CBR they could have beat him if they wanted, but he wanted it and left earlier and rode the longest. To say that it was some how not amazing because there was a 250 mc engine in a scoot is silly and a bit of sour grapes if you ask me?
Were the MP3 the GTS 300's the burgmans and what have you gaming the rules?
Like BR said, if you were on a TnG you could have been "gaming" as far as he's conserned, that was not the spirit to him.
The CBR is an amazing piece of this culture and to belittle one man's victory over what we feel is "gaming" well then stop watching or paying attention to any thing where people compete, cause it happens.
Rules is rules and all of them were followed.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon May 21, 2012 10:33 pm

The CBR riders I've spoken to don't feel like they were deprived of a win or that this was unfair. I know some may disagree and that this will be discussed for years to come.

This Salsbury build was years in the making and not planned as a CBR scoot. That happened later. It's not as if he found a loophole in the handicapping system.

CBR isn't some huge, definitive, "official" thing. It's not the Oscars or the Superbowl. The organizers tried a lot of new approaches ion the 2012 CBR and some worked, some maybe not. There were no classes, no displacement limits, the handicapping system, and a shorter, less challenging run that in the past.

The handicapping system for 2014 has been tweaked. It also looks like there will not be a displacement cap. That could change, I guess.

The "spirit" of CBR is something that can (and maybe should) change over time. The event is now a reflection of the contemporary scooter world, not just a couple small slices of it. I like that.

It is what you make of it. If/when I run it, I would love to do it on a 150cc scoot. Maybe not a vintage shifter, but we'll see.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon May 21, 2012 11:00 pm

ericalm wrote:CBR isn't some huge, definitive, "official" thing. It's not the Oscars or the Superbowl.

It is what you make of it. If/when I run it, I would love to do it on a 150cc scoot. Maybe not a vintage shifter, but we'll see.

I'd like to run it on Larry Crowne's Riva. Show the haters. Yeah.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue May 22, 2012 12:08 am

Syd wrote:
ericalm wrote:CBR isn't some huge, definitive, "official" thing. It's not the Oscars or the Superbowl.

It is what you make of it. If/when I run it, I would love to do it on a 150cc scoot. Maybe not a vintage shifter, but we'll see.
I'd like to run it on Larry Crowne's Riva. Show the haters. Yeah.

I saw one just like it a couple days ago. I'd LOVE to own a Riva, though the limited black and gold 200cc version is at the top of my list.

gbjbany · Post by **gbjbany** » Tue May 22, 2012 4:08 am

in case anybody wanted to see what it was all about - here's a pic from the rally - good to meet you K1dude !!!

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Tue May 22, 2012 7:28 am

gbjbany wrote:in case anybody wanted to see what it was all about - here's a pic from the rally - good to meet you K1dude !!!

Likewise gbjbany!

If anyone is wondering about the aluminum scoop, it was added to improve cooling. It wasn't to accomodate the bigger engine. So the Ninja engine still sits within the original engine envelope. An oil cooler will be added underneath the scooter to try to improve engine cooling.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Tue May 22, 2012 8:04 am

ericalm wrote:
Syd wrote:
ericalm wrote:CBR isn't some huge, definitive, "official" thing. It's not the Oscars or the Superbowl.

It is what you make of it. If/when I run it, I would love to do it on a 150cc scoot. Maybe not a vintage shifter, but we'll see.
I'd like to run it on Larry Crowne's Riva. Show the haters. Yeah.
I saw one just like it a couple days ago. I'd LOVE to own a Riva, though the limited black and gold 200cc version is at the top of my list.

My local Yammy dealer...Riva Yamaha...has one on display by the scooter section...every time I'm in there I ask if they are ready to sell it!

BootScootin'FireFighter · Thu May 24, 2012 3:28 am

PeteH wrote:I'll just say it. The Cannonball was not won with honor.

I'm going to defend Lee on this one. Just like any endurance event that involves the ability to enter your own machine and gain a point advantage, he found one and capitalized on it. Same thing that is done in road rallies, sailing races, and model car racing. Cannonball requires a lot more then just getting on and going. It's a true test of man, machine, navigation, discipline and mechanics. Fortunately for Lee, he mastered just about all categories. He fabricated his Frankenscoot without violating any of the rules, then showed up in Savannah ready to win. He was well rested, limited his breaks (not even sure he stopped most days except to piss), and had his Salsbury set in optimal riding shape before going to bed each night. He also didn't stop to take pictures or smell the roses like most of us did.

For me, I'm not experienced with wrenching, nor do I have a garage full of options, just the Buddy. So I entered with the knowledge I had, and learned more about my scooter then I ever could've imagined. Had I showed up in Georgia with a new stator, that could've put me much higher in the standings, since I missed the second days points. I was fairly certain that it was a gummed up fuel filter and I had one waiting for me before the start, but after running day 1 sluggishly, that was not the case. My fault. I also didn't prepare enough with my to-go foods, I wasted too much time refueling, pooping, and taking photos at checkpoints. Lessons learned for my potention 2014 run.

He played by the rules and used his wrenching skills both in the weeks prior and every night at the motel to seal his win. Great for him! And also much respect to the guy who rode a Yamaha C3. Huge respect for everyone, what an accomplishment.

Here's a thread that goes into detail about his build:

http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=50015

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:25 pm

ericalm wrote: There were no classes, no displacement limits, the handicapping system, and a shorter, less challenging run that in the past.

I would offer a point of contention.

I don't think it's possible to quantify the level of challenge. Did any of the previous Cannonballs have to deal with the heat and wind that we had? It was 103 in Abilene, TX when we arrived there; a record high for that place! We pretty much had a headwind the entire trip.

Did any of the other Cannonballs start on a wet cobblestone road? Did any other Cannonball have the challenge of buzzards all over the road eating dead Armadillos? I lost count of how many I nearly clipped with the scooter.

Like other Cannonballs, we had accidents, extreme temperatures, opportunities to get lost, injuries, crazy traffic, potholes, sunburn, mechanical problems, cops, mountains, road construction, and over a week of living on nothing but gas station food. We even threw in a Brown Recluse spider bite for good measure.

As a competition it was actually more difficult. Instead of there being three (or more) classes, we had one class. With 50 starters, I had 49 riders to try and beat... versus the three or four they had in the past (when they had smaller fields and separate classes).

We all spent an insane amount of money and burned up a big chunk of vacation time to compete in the event. It just doesn't seem fair to arbitrarily label 2012 as less of a challenge because it was one or two days shorter than some of the previous Cannonballs.

Having said all that, I would welcome an even more challenging event; if that is the plan for 2014. In short, Bring It!

Just my two cents.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Thu May 24, 2012 1:28 pm

My point that I was trying to make above was that it ain't clear whether the Cannonball was more an engineering contest or a riding contest. Yeah, I read the build thread and looked at the pics. All new everything - wiring, frame members, practically the whole enchilada.

Ironically, Lee's sig in the build thread: "Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind? Ask yourself these simple questions every time you are in doubt about any action." Perhaps that subconsciously pissed me off.

As an engineering achievement, I salute.

And to the riders, especially from MB, who made the journey, I bow deeply. You guys have the biggest dog in the fight, and I profoundly respect your opinions. You are far closer to it than I.

But as Claude said in the ride thread, by Day 3 Lee would be the winner of the CBR. That makes it an largely about pre-engineering.

Where do you draw the line? Could someone have taken the gas tank or a bit of frame member off of a 1928 Harley and declared his bike a '28?

I guess, curmudgeon that I am, that I wouldn't be happy with anything less than a stock race, maybe with no age handicap at all, or where the year is determined by the newest components rather than the oldest.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Thu May 24, 2012 3:34 pm

My thoughts on the Salsbury.

I thought Lee was a super-nice guy, and I concede that his machine did not violate the rules. Also, his creation is an engineering marvel.

There's no way to pin down what the "spirit of the competition" really is. There's no published (official) guidance on this. In fact, the event's homepage states that "your reasons are your reasons." However, I completely understand people who claim that the scooter was a violation of the spirit of the event.

Were I Lee, I wouldn't really consider my bike to be a 1946 machine. Therefore, entering it into a competition where old age is an advantage wouldn't make much sense to me. I would realize that there would be controversy and possible animosity about it. So, I probably wouldn't have done what he did.

But, I'm not him.

gitsum79 · Post by **gitsum79** » Thu May 24, 2012 3:52 pm

The Salsbury was an incredible and innovative piece of engineering. However, it had a motorcycle engine and most of the mechanical components used were not from 1946.

So how come the handicap reflected a vintage 1946 scooter? The blame lies on the handicap rules that allowed Lee to easily exploit them. The amount of planning and work that went into the Salsbury was commendable, maybe even amazing. But the fact of the matter is a Ninja 250 motorcycle with a vintage scooter body won the race.

Just like car racing, the handicap rules need to be very specific, so that nobody can take advantage of them. Racers have always taken advantage of rules where they can, it's to be expected and Lee was no different than anyone else.

That being said, I really don't have a clue what the 2014 handicap rules mean, I guess I'm not smart enough

Maybe someone can take a couple of different late model scooters and apply the handicap formula and explain?

Demo_Nic · Post by **Demo_Nic** » Thu May 24, 2012 4:10 pm

Larry Crowne's Riva was up for auction a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure if it sold but there's a Hollywood prop auction in June run by the same company.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu May 24, 2012 4:55 pm

gitsum79 wrote:The Salsbury was an incredible and innovative piece of engineering. However, it had a motorcycle engine and most of the mechanical components used were not from 1946.

So how come the handicap reflected a vintage 1946 scooter? The blame lies on the handicap rules that allowed Lee to easily exploit them. The amount of planning and work that went into the Salsbury was commendable, maybe even amazing. But the fact of the matter is a Ninja 250 motorcycle with a vintage scooter body won the race.

Just like car racing, the handicap rules need to be very specific, so that nobody can take advantage of them. Racers have always taken advantage of rules where they can, it's to be expected and Lee was no different than anyone else.

That being said, I really don't have a clue what the 2014 handicap rules mean, I guess I'm not smart enough

Maybe someone can take a couple of different late model scooters and apply the handicap formula and explain?

Oh C'mon. Have you ever seen a "stock" car race? They resemble NOTHING that is "stock." But guess what? That's how they originally started out! Several posters in this thread have their underwear in a bundle over some ficticious utopian ideal they created in their dreams of what the Cannonball should be if they were emperor of the world. It doesn't exist anywhere in the competitive world. People are ALWAYS pushing the limits and being rewarded for their creativity. Motor sport racing is particularly abusive of your imaginary "spirit."

I've participated competitively my whole life in multiple sports, and there's always someone that finds a grey area and takes advantage of it to win. Do I get pissed? Damn straight! I'm pissed I wasn't the one who thought of the advantage! As long as they aren't cheating, go for it! And most of the advancements come from someone creating a better buggy whip, not from strength, perseverance, or endurance. It's almost always a technological advantage.

If you want a true vintage race, start your own! But where do you draw the line? Our modern oil and oil filters are far better than back in the day. We use in-line fuel filters that didn't exist back in the day. We use coils and batteries that exceed those back in the day. Our modern tires far exceed the performance of tires back in the day. What if you can't get an engine for your vintage because no engines for it even exist anymore? Good luck finding a vintage Salsbury steering column. There were only 1,500 ever made. Why do you think Lee probably had to use a Vespa steering column? Your utopian ideal of a true vintage race would fall apart before you even started. NO ONE would qualify.

And yes, Lee is one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. It's BS that he's being attacked for doing NOTHING wrong. He's doing what pretty much EVERYONE is doing in the racing world. Have you ever even competed in the Pinewood Derby that the Boy Scouts put on? If so, you'd know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Bending but not breaking the rules starts young.

I participate in a "race" every month that requires us to use "stock" equipment. Yet everyone is using highly modified equipment that doesn't even resemble what comes out of the box. They are all bending, but not breaking the rules. It's just what humans do, try to find the advantage and to soup things up to perform better. What you want is contrary to the human condition.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Thu May 24, 2012 5:52 pm

This thread has probably run its course; and may even be destined for a lock.

Comparing the Scooter Cannonball to other types of competition is a bit like comparing tomatoes to ketchup. First of all, there's no monetary prize for the winner, and none of the participants are receiving significant sponsorship.

More importantly, the Cannonball functions under an honor system. Riders are on their honor to accurately record their times, not draft behind their support vehicles, assist fellow competitors in need, have their scooters correctly registered, wear the safety gear required by the rules, etc. There's no way the organizers could police all that stuff. Gaming the rules would be an example of a violation of this trust -in my opinion.

Here is the 1946 Salisbury.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu May 24, 2012 6:35 pm

That Scooter Guy wrote:Comparing the Scooter Cannonball to other types of competition is a bit like comparing tomatoes to ketchup. First of all, there's no monetary prize for the winner, and none of the participants are receiving significant sponsorship.

And none of the competitions I've ever competed in had monetary gains or sponsorships. They were all amateur and still are. Yet people still use every advantage they can. Just like the Pinewood Derby - there is no monetary gain or sponsorships there either.

And BTW, Cannonball riders DO have sponsors.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Thu May 24, 2012 6:47 pm

There are ways to police other types of events. During my son's pinewood derby the cars were all weighed and inspected to ensure that they were within the specifications.

In auto racing you can observe what's going on almost all the time. There's enough money involved that you can rip apart an engine to see if it is using stock cams or has the correct bore & stroke.

The Cannonball is not that type of event. The participants leave the hotel alone in the middle of the night. You have to be able to trust that they aren't bending the rules, because there are too many opportunities to do that. The event depends on it.

If you look at the pictures I posted and think "that's a 1946 scooter" then so be it. I don't think most people would agree.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Thu May 24, 2012 6:51 pm

k1dude wrote: And BTW, Cannonball riders DO have sponsors.

I said "significant sponsorship."

Sure, I got discounts from my local scooter shop. But no Cannonballer was out there with money from Budweiser, Coke, Exxon or DuPont.

gitsum79 · Post by **gitsum79** » Thu May 24, 2012 7:25 pm

My mom taught me that just because "everybody else does it" doesn't mean that I should do it also, or that makes it the "right" thing to do.

Just because the "norm" for society today seems to disregard morality, honesty, honor and a sense of fair play, that isn't a valid excuse for me to live the same way...

But all of this is another issue, I'm not judging anyone or accusing anyone of cheating.

Just stating a fact. The Salsbury had a vintage 1946 scooter handicap but was using a late model motorcycle engine and tranny. Did it break any rules? No. Was it moral or fair?
That's for everyone to decide for themselves

heatherkay · Post by **heatherkay** » Thu May 24, 2012 9:12 pm

In a game, what is right is decided by the rules. The rules define what's right in the world of the game. Football players can do things on the field that would considered assault off the field. If the Cannonball rider met the requirements of the rules, than what he did is right within the confines of the competition. If you don't think the rules are adequate, you take it up with the competition committee during the offseason.

To say that it was immoral or dishonorable is taking things pretty far. Everyone in the race got the same rules package and had the option of modifying their scooter. Everyone in the race was there voluntarily. Words like immorality or dishonor should be reserved for how we treat people in real life. As long as he wasn't tampering with other peoples scooters or putting the scooter on a flatbed truck and hauling down the interstate, he wasn't immoral.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Thu May 24, 2012 9:26 pm

That's certainly the black and white version.

However, when you're talking about a semi-official event that is based heavily on the participants' adherence to an honor system, has no "competition committee", no prize, and doesn't have the structure and refinement that other sports enjoy.... there is certainly room for discussion about what is sportsmanlike.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Thu May 24, 2012 9:38 pm

ericalm wrote:this will be discussed for years to come.

It feels like its already been discussed for years.

heatherkay · Post by **heatherkay** » Thu May 24, 2012 9:38 pm

Of course there's not a competition committee. But the participants and organizers make decisions about the rules every time they set things up. It sounds like they play with routes and handicapping systems and that the race is different every time.

I don't really have dog in this fight, but it did irk me a little when people are accusing someone who followed the rules of being immoral and dishonorable. I kind of feel like the folks who showed up with 500cc displacement scooter were doing something similar. At what point is it still a scooter, you know?

The whole thing feels like the world of road racing (tennis shoe powered), which I am more familiar with. There are folks who really care about winning, and they spend a huge amount of time and money to shave a few seconds off their time here and there, just to get that extra edge. This is often done at the expense of their own health and in ways that most runners can't emulate. They even do this is races for which all they get is a finisher medal, that are run by the Little Sisters of the Poor. They are there to win. The vast majority of runners don't worry about winning, just worry about getting a personal best or beating their buddy or not being last or some other goal that is short of winning. We look at those gunner runners with some mix of annoyance and amusement, but I don't think we would accuse them of immorality or dishonor.

gitsum79 · Post by **gitsum79** » Thu May 24, 2012 9:40 pm

heatherkay wrote:In a game, what is right is decided by the rules. The rules define what's right in the world of the game. Football players can do things on the field that would considered assault off the field. If the Cannonball rider met the requirements of the rules, than what he did is right within the confines of the competition. If you don't think the rules are adequate, you take it up with the competition committee during the offseason.

To say that it was immoral or dishonorable is taking things pretty far. Everyone in the race got the same rules package and had the option of modifying their scooter. Everyone in the race was there voluntarily. Words like immorality or dishonor should be reserved for how we treat people in real life. As long as he wasn't tampering with other peoples scooters or putting the scooter on a flatbed truck and hauling down the interstate, he wasn't immoral.

I never said Lee was dishonorable or immoral. That was mostly about K1dude more or less saying anything goes, and as long as no rules are broken it's honorable and fair. I disagree with that philosophy. Then again, like I said before, that's for everyone to decide for themselves.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu May 24, 2012 10:07 pm

illnoise wrote:
ericalm wrote:this will be discussed for years to come.
It feels like its already been discussed for years.

Yep.

Demo_Nic wrote:Larry Crowne's Riva was up for auction a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure if it sold but there's a Hollywood prop auction in June run by the same company.

Damn! I missed that! They've long since auctioned most of the other scoots from the shoot. I think Sportique in Denver got a couple of the Stellas. No idea what happened to the electric Lambretta, but it's probably not a feasible rider.

They're not currently listing any Crowne scoots in their catalog, just some wardrobe that's been posted for a long time.

I made a pretty nice profit on a Belstaff Hero "War of the Worlds" jacket I got from them for $100 and flipped on eBay. I'd have kept it if it had fit!

Post by **ericalm** » Thu May 24, 2012 10:08 pm

BTW, No need to lock this thread as long as the discussion remains civil and respectful. Someone report it if things get crazy in here.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Thu May 24, 2012 11:15 pm

heatherkay wrote:Of course there's not a competition committee. But the participants and organizers make decisions about the rules every time they set things up. It sounds like they play with routes and handicapping systems and that the race is different every time.

I don't really have dog in this fight, but it did irk me a little when people are accusing someone who followed the rules of being immoral and dishonorable. I kind of feel like the folks who showed up with 500cc displacement scooter were doing something similar. At what point is it still a scooter, you know?

I would suggest reading up on the Cannonball, to include the rules used for the 2012 competition. It's clear you haven't, and it does a disservice to people who agree with you about the Salisbury.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Fri May 25, 2012 12:51 am

I rode up from Houston to Abilene where the local scooter folks put on a BBQ for the canonballers and got a change to meet a many of them.

If you want to talk about the "spirit" of the canonball I'd say Len had it with his Frankenscoot. He was out there wrenching on it to address that came up during that day's ride. Some modified their scoots to maximize performance (often at the cost of reliability) or to minmize stops using tour tanks (not all of which worked as planned) while others did indeed stop for meals or photos. The support from one rider to another for the most part regardless of what they were riding to me showed me the "spirit" of the canonball. The way support vehicles helped folks with problems not just the person/group they were officially there to provide support for showed the spirit of the canonball as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, there are/were some who think that the canonball should be limited to either vintage (however that is defined) or under 200cc. Others want to bring back classes and forget all other "handicaps". I can see the point of each group along with one proposal I heard about that was to have two sets of checkpoints for each day. Smaller cc scoots would have a 350ish mile day while bigger engines (freeway capable) would have closer to 500 mile days but each group would be at the same place each night. Yet another proposal was for nothing over 200cc and 500 miles days every day to be a "true" canonball.

I've ridden 300-500 miles for days at a time and no matter what you ride it is tiring particularly if you have mechanical issues. Anyone who rides the canonball whether it is a 50cc Honda Ruckus, Buddy, vintage (call it pre 1990) or new 350-650cc scooter is going to find it a challenge. I heard that some of the riders of similar size/age scoots had side challenges between them because they knew they couldn't "win" under the handicap system After all the largest scoot had a 160% handicap, nothing he could do would let him "win" even if he took the chance of getting dozens of speeding tickets. To me, and it is just my perspective which you are free to disagree with the canonball is like those foot races others mentioned. You do it to challenge yourself in most cases. A couple of folks I spoke with in Abilene were on their second, third or even fourth canonball. Each spoke of how they were doing compared to previous canonballs. While they were all serious about competing they expressed admiration for Len's Frankenscoot. Note, I did not have conversations with everyone so there may well have been some who felt differently.

Will I do the scootercanonball some day? If the rules permit a 250cc or 500cc modern scoot - yes. I love our Buddy 125 but I can't ride it 300+ miles for 10 or more days. Those who can/do, my hat is off to you and if your engine size gets you extra points I'm okay with that but I'd prefer to compete in classes of similar sized (say under 120, 111-199, 200-349, 350+)

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Fri May 25, 2012 1:48 am

Y'know what? I'm sorry I phrased things like I did. While it provoked a lot of good conversation about interpretation, it clearly provoked a lot of anger, which wasn't really my intent, and I apologize.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:23 am

gitsum79 wrote:I never said Lee was dishonorable or immoral. That was mostly about K1dude more or less saying anything goes, and as long as no rules are broken it's honorable and fair. I disagree with that philosophy. Then again, like I said before, that's for everyone to decide for themselves.

When did I say "anything goes?" You realize that you're arguing with some of the people that were actually IN THE RACE telling them they're wrong. It seems most of the people that have a problem with Lee weren't even in the race.

You know nothing about me. I'm one of the straightest by the rules type people you'll meet - honor means everything to me and I live my life accordingly. But nothing Lee did was DISHONORABLE. He broke no rules and according to the other racers who support him fully, he was the epitome of what the Cannonball is about.

Lee and the Frankenscoot aren't the problem here. Your minority personal interpretation of the Cannonball is the problem. If it isn't even shared by the other competitors, you're the odd man out.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:43 am

Well K1, I was in the Cannonball. I wouldn't say that gitsum's thoughts are in the minority (among the competitors).

When people looked at his scooter they didn't see a 1946 scooter. They saw a something that was half 250 Ninja and half modern Vespa wrapped in a few pieces of 60+ year old rusty bodywork.

I don't dislike the man or his scooter. I don't, however, accept that it is a 1946 Salsbury.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri May 25, 2012 3:21 am

That Scooter Guy wrote:Well K1, I was in the Cannonball. I wouldn't say that gitsum's thoughts are in the minority (among the competitors).

When people looked at his scooter they didn't see a 1946 scooter. They saw a something that was half 250 Ninja and half modern Vespa wrapped in a few pieces of 60+ year old rusty bodywork.

I don't dislike the man or his scooter. I don't, however, accept that it is a 1946 Salsbury.

And who made you the arbiter of all that is worthy?

Is it you who gets to decide what is vintage and what isn't? Do you have any idea how many Salsbury engines and steering columns are available for purchase? I'd venture to say ZERO. Was Lee supposed to let the frame remain in structurally unsound condition and put his life in jeopardy to keep it "original?" What about the other "vintage" scooters in the race that have all sorts of performance mods from cylinder/head/crank kits to racing exhaust/suspensions to modified fuel systems and extra gas tanks? You have no problem with those scoots? Only you get to decide what's allowable and what isn't? You do realize, there wasn't a single unmodified "vintage" scoot in the race?

If someone shows up with an 850cc Gilera next year are you going to say they're cheating? Why? It's a scooter.

I'm arguing circles with you. Your logic is flawed due to some emotionally driven concept of what is fair in your own mind. If you have such a problem with the way things are done at the Canonball, I suggest you petition rule changes or get on the race board to affect those changes. Because obviously you have a better idea of how it needs to be done than the powers that be.

I'm done with this discourse. Good day.

gitsum79 · Post by **gitsum79** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:18 pm

k1dude wrote:

I've participated competitively my whole life in multiple sports, and there's always someone that finds a grey area and takes advantage of it to win. Do I get pissed? Damn straight! I'm pissed I wasn't the one who thought of the advantage! As long as they aren't cheating, go for it!

gitsum79 wrote:

That was mostly about K1dude more or less saying anything goes, and as long as no rules are broken it's honorable and fair.

Is there something wrong with my interpretation of what k1dude said?

That Scooter Guy wrote:

I don't dislike the man or his scooter. I don't, however, accept that it is a 1946 Salsbury.

Exactly the point. Some people accept it as "fair", some think it isn't. Just because the rules don't make Lee's Salsbury illegal, that doesn't mean that everybody has to accept it as fair. I believe this is where "morality" and "fair play" give us the ability to make a decision based on what's "right or wrong" regardless of technicalities found in the rules.

No, this doesn't mean that rules and regulations should be ignored, this is where one's common sense comes into play.

k1dude wrote:

Your minority personal interpretation of the Cannonball is the problem.

Reading back through the entire thread, here is a count of everyone that directly commented on the issue.

7 saying it was fair.
2 remaining neutral.
6 saying it wasn't fair.

Crap, you're right! 7 vs. 6 makes me part of a "minority"

k1dude wrote:

It's just what humans do

No, that's what some humans do, not all of us...

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:29 pm

K1, I'm sorry that you feel that way. Everyone has opinions, and I'm just sharing mine.

The simple fact that there are no Salsbury engines on the market, does not justify bolting in a modern sport bike engine that is in no way similar to the original engine, and claiming that the historical continuity has been maintained. It looks as if less than 5% of that scooter is actually 1946 Salsbury.

According to DOT laws, all you need is the four of five inch section of frame that displays a vehicle's VIN in order to register a vehicle as that model. In other words, I could chop off the VIN stamp that I found on an old Harley frame with a hacksaw -chop off the VIN on a Hayabusa -weld the Harley VIN in place of the Hayabusa VIN, and I could legally register the Hayabusa as a vintage Harley. It's crazy, but absolutely true.

There were many bikes in the competition with transplanted motors and/or updated parts. In every case that I know of, the changes maintained the spirit of the original engineering.

Two scooters come to mind. One was a vintage Vespa (mid-1970s) that had a fairly new LML (Genuine Stella) engine. As we all know, the Stella engine is very similar to a vintage Vespa engine. The second example was a Honda Passport that had a 140cc engine in place of the stock 70cc engine. Again, the replacement engine was nearly identical in styling and engineering. It was actually a Chinese clone of the original engine. It's also worth noting that by doubling the engine's displacement that the competitor's handicap was increased considerably.

The Cannonball has no "race board" to petition. I sincerely don't mean this in a condescending way... but it's painfully apparent that some of you have no real concept of what the Cannonball is about.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri May 25, 2012 7:27 pm

I think it's important to remember that the Scooter Cannonball Run is a scooter run. Some people take it very seriously. I do...to a point...then I have to remember that we are grown men and women riding scooters...and I just can't take it that seriously anymore!

I gotta say...just thinking about "honorable" scooter riding cracks me up!

Ride safe, have fun!

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Fri May 25, 2012 11:22 pm

BuddyRaton,

I understand your thoughts and agree with them. We are all hobbyists, and nobody is curing cancer here.

That said, the Cannonball only comes around once every two years. Everyone wants to make the most of it. You never know if you'll be able to do another one. It's also a considerable investment in time and money. The other angle to consider is that the "competition" part of the event was what was fun for some of the riders. If there's a turd in that punchbowl, then it cuts right into their fun.

The same logic can be applied in reverse. It's just people on scooters, so why would anyone enter a scooter that would cause such controversy? There was quite a bit of protest about it (on the Cannonball forum) starting months before the event kicked off.

When I use the word "honor" I'm simply referring to the trust-based system that the Cannonball uses. I'm not using it to insinuate we are a bunch of chivalrous knights scootering for some noble cause (other than Autism awareness).

Despite my multiple posts, I don't lose sleep about any of this. I was more interested in the social aspects of the event, seeing the scenery, and challenging myself. I finished mid-pack, so the Salsbury wasn't on my radar.

However, I can certainly see how people who were into the competition would have a beef with the 1946 scooter.

Demo_Nic · Post by **Demo_Nic** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:42 am

Guess what Eric?

On today's CL:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/mc ... 05621.html

Rusty J · Post by **Rusty J** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:26 am

That Scooter Guy wrote:
ericalm wrote: There were no classes, no displacement limits, the handicapping system, and a shorter, less challenging run that in the past.

<snip>
Like other Cannonballs, we had accidents, extreme temperatures, opportunities to get lost, injuries, crazy traffic, potholes, sunburn, mechanical problems, cops, mountains, road construction, and over a week of living on nothing but gas station food. We even threw in a Brown Recluse spider bite for good measure.
<snip>

For the record, the "spider bite" turned out to be a MRSA infection. The rider required surgery and two days hospitalization, immediately upon finishing the ride. Fortunately, he's pretty much fully recovered with no long term ill effects.
Details are in the Cannonball thread on ModernVespa.
http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic97180?page=51

-Rusty
Vespa LXS150
4T Stella, perhaps?

Rusty J · Post by **Rusty J** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:29 am

Demo_Nic wrote:Guess what Eric?

On today's CL:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/mc ... 05621.html

Looks nice!
I very much wanted one of those back in high school -- ended up with a used Vespa instead (not that I'm complaining!)

Definitely has the feel of something that slipped in from the alternate reality in which Lambretta was still making scooters in the 1980s. Aside from the Spree, Honda scooters had then-modern styling (not bad, mind you, but not nearly as timeless).

-Rusty
Vespa 150S
4T Stella, perhaps?