Another scooterist killed in Atlanta this morning...

Uncle Groucho · Post by **Uncle Groucho** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:32 pm

http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/scooter- ... 62528.html

This is right down the street from where I live; have no idea who the rider could be.

Everyone please be careful out there.

Mutt the Hoople · Post by **Mutt the Hoople** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:08 pm

This is getting way too frequent. "Didn't see". More like "Didn't look". Yes. Scooters and motorcycles are smaller. I'm really not sure that I buy that excuse. If that was the reason, how come more pedestrians, animals, people walking dogs etc. army getting killed. If these people are that blind how come there is t road kill all over the place. They are even smaller than scooters. With that theory we should be knee deep in road kill. I think it is more like, "Didn't LOOK, don't really care, don't like motorcycles/scooters anyway".

EastAtlantaScoot · Post by **EastAtlantaScoot** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:23 pm

Another one

This accident sounds too much like what I encounter too often. My brother up in NYC just had an accident very similiar where a car in front of him merged into his lane at the minute and then stopped to turn left. He rear ended her and was thrown from the bike. Thankfully he was able to decrease his speed enough before contact that he and the bike are okay.

Everyone please be careful and be the best defensive rider you can be.

ThreeSheets · Post by **ThreeSheets** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm

people are just to caught up in their own lives to be concerned with the lives of others. Condolences to the victim ride safe everyone!

Uncle Groucho · Post by **Uncle Groucho** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:45 pm

ThreeSheets wrote:people are just to caught up in their own lives to be concerned with the lives of others.

That what frightens me the most; you can be the most careful, attentive scooterist out there and some moron busy with their phone or running late will kill you with their two-ton metal cage. And it's not just on the scoot; four or five times just this past week people have started pulling out in front of me in the Mini because they must think it's some little putt-putt car.

Capt_Don · Post by **Capt_Don** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:40 pm

"I did not see the speed limit officer."

"I did not see the Do Not Enter sign officer."

"I did not see the stoplight at the last three intersections officer."

"I did not see my speedometer officer."

"I did not see..."

Oh, but you do something to agitate THEM and they see it all. Back when I ran restaurants, I got a call from an assistant that had a hard time setting something up. So my tired ass went down to the store and helped him. Then my tired ass went home. I was stopped at the light, behind another car. The light turned green, not my light, but the turn light, and I started to drive right into the car in front of me. I did not see them, because I did not look at them. My mind was on the green light that was not for me anyway. What did I say? "Sorry, that was my fault, I was not paying attention." Thankfully it was less than 5mph and all cars.

Unless this scooter rider was being reckless then there is NOTHING excusable about this crap and the driver of the other vehicle should pay the full penalty of the law. It does not matter of we are piloting an, 18 wheeler, SUV, pick-up, car, motorcycle of any class, or a bicycle; WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO BE SAFE!

When you drive an 18 wheeler and you get in an accident, and it is the other guys fault, it is not over. If they find that YOU could have prevented that accident then it counts against YOU.

Mutt the Hoople, you speak the gospel.

Mutt the Hoople · Post by **Mutt the Hoople** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:51 pm

It just galls me. Long before I ever considered hopping on two wheels I saw and heard this pattern of excuses and when I heard them I thought Why are you driving then? Is it just me or do all of you have the same Driver's Ed stuff hard wired into your heads. "Check your blind spots with your eyes, not your mirrors, check over your shoulder, look LEFT to right, then left again (because that is the lane closest to you), if making a left hand turn, make sure there is no oncoming traffic because THEY have the right of way, look, signal, and look again before changes lanes. Let the other drivers know what you intentions are. ALWAYS watch out for pedestrians and children who may dart out from between parked cars. Be extra cautious around schools, parks, churches etc. KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR MOTORCYCLES: THEY SHARE THE SAME RIGHTS TO THE ROAD AS YOU!!! If you cannot see a motorcycle, then you are not going to see small animals, children, a person in a wheel chair, bicycles etc.

People like my mom always said she HATED motorcycles because she couldn't see them. And for a time she drove a 1958 Corvette. Her brother drove a Sprite, a Sunbeam, and various Brit sports cars. Those are not big and Brit Racing Green is not exactly a high vis color. She was absolutely NASTY to my brother when he got a little Honda CB.

No. It is NOT "I don't like motorcycles because I can't see them"
It's
"I don't see motorcycles because I DON'T LIKE THEM"

I don't want to be a negative jerk, but I do believe that is the real attitude with a whole lot of drivers. I think I am a pretty positive person. I love riding and when I'm out and about on my scooter, I generally have a big smile on my face even if I'm just running mundane errands. And I see drivers with absolute contempt on their faces. Not all, but enough to notice. And then there are the ones that look right through you. If it was simply a size thing, then why don't we read of more Miatta accidents. They are darker in color and shorter than we are... We sit up significantly higher. But you don't read that do you? No.

BeefSupreme · Post by **BeefSupreme** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:34 pm

Speaking of left turners.....

The DAY I got my scooter I was at my house on the front porch waiting for my roommate to come home and show it to him. I live on a fairly busy 4 lane road with parking along the side. I saw my roommate pull up, attempting turn left into a parking spot when SCREEEEEECH...

he cut off a guy on a motorcycle. The MC rider locked up his rear brakes. Roommate started to stop, he was already blocking the two oncoming lanes, then proceeded to gun it into the parking spot. MC missed his rear by about 2 feet. My arms were already in the air, giving the WTF whole body expression. When he walked up he said he "simply didn't see him". That was a little disheartening considering the idiot in this situation was my best friend.

From now on when i'm about town I always watch out for black 1989 MBWs.

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:59 pm

It's an honest mistake, if that's what honestly happened. That doesn't IN ANY WAY make it excusable, or any less careless.

I also feel there's a difference between the one honest mistake that happens, like Capt Don's story about being tired and going when the turn light turned green (which I have done once before, in the car), and people who do stupid reckless shit all the time, don't notice or care until they get pulled or cause an accident, and then it's their EXCUSE and somehow it's suppose to absolve them of part of the responsibility. There's also a big difference, like Capt Don point out, in how you handle it. Saying "I didn't see you because I wasn't paying attention, and it was my fault" is being an adult and taking responsibility, rather than "I didn't see them/it", as if that's all you need to say and something is supposed to be universally understood about the particular situation and why it's sorta maybe not actually all your fault that you caused it to occur.

That all being said, I'm sorry to be hearing about another death. It's very sad.

easy · Post by **easy** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:25 pm

It's our attitude (american culture) getting a driver license is to easy. The only two things a zoombie cant do use door knobs and get a d/l. How do you give something the respect it deserves when the culture surrounding you acts like it aint nothing. It's everybody just the distraction changes, young people=cell phone; 3pc suit=newspaper on and on. Unless you ride or earn a living driving it's no more important than brushing your teeth. If it gets to be a huge problem the gov will regulate the crap out of motorcycles just like they do in trucking today. To many votes lost to crank down on the real problem

amy · Post by **amy** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:41 pm

I doubt this was an honest mistake. This driver was turning left I believe...left hand turns in Atlanta are the WORST kind of turn. Most drivers just gun it when they have to make a left and WAY too many people coming in the opposite direction wave them through through out of "politeness" - which is SO BAD.

This is dreadful. I am writing letters to the reporters on all of these stories in the hopes that they might consider writing a feature on motorscooters and cycles on the streets, and what drivers should be aware of.

I doubt it will do any good.

My gosh. So so horrid.

Rusty J · Post by **Rusty J** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:48 am

I don't know the specifics of this particular tragedy, but one problem drivers have is that even if they do see motorcycles, they may not process what they see properly.

Most of the time, the simple rule of thumb that things that look big are closer than things that look small, actually works, and a driver may never realize that's how they're seeing traffic when they're not really paying attention. They may not even notice the times when the rule of thumb fails, or just shrug it off if they do.

Mutt the Hoople · Post by **Mutt the Hoople** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:54 am

Rusty J wrote:I don't know the specifics of this particular tragedy, but one problem drivers have is that even if they do see motorcycles, they may not process what they see properly.

Most of the time, the simple rule of thumb that things that look big are closer than things that look small, actually works, and a driver may never realize that's how they're seeing traffic when they're not really paying attention. They may not even notice the times when the rule of thumb fails, or just shrug it off if they do.

I know what you are saying and you have a point. But to be very blunt, after reading about incident after incident, here and a lot of other places, I really think we give the drivers of cars way WAY too much of a pass. Perhaps where I live has jaundiced my view over the past few years because it is a busy area, I walk a lot, and I observe... But drivers... Too many of them just drive like entitled jerks. I was in my car yesterday and all I can say is WOW. I was in a parking lot for a smaller hardware store, (I was picking up a small drill press for a class I teach). There were plenty of spaces. I come out and the side of my door is streamed because someone pulled in too close and they hit my car backing up. WTF. No note, no nothing. Third time in as many months. My pristine car now looks like a city beater. I was bemoaning the fact to a friend and they said it was because I don't keep in garage. I don't have a garage. I live in an apartment. And that is not the reason anyway. It is because drivers do whatever, they don't pay attention, they text, eat, whatever... And then the don't take any responsibility for the damage they do because of their own carelessness. I am effing sick of it.

As far as now they perceive motorcycles, scooters, bicycles et. "oh, they were so small I didn't see them" ... BS!!!! You were NOT looking or you just did not care... Or you have a big SUV and you make it everyone else's responsibility to get out of YOUR way and when your selfish boneheadedness hurts or kills someone, you whine and say you didnt see them. BS!!!!

As far as the larger smaller visual thing goes... You see. Cat start across the road in front of you... You don't think oh, it's a Mountain lion... I don't have to worry because it is a block away, do you?

We are way too tolerant with these jerks. They don't see us because they don't think we have the right to be there. It's vehicular bigotry. Sure there are acceptions. But really, listen to their remarks. Sorry, if you are really that blind get off the road and walk or take the bus.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:26 pm

Mutt the Hoople wrote: We are way too tolerant with these jerks. They don't see us because they don't think we have the right to be there. It's vehicular bigotry. Sure there are acceptions. But really, listen to their remarks. Sorry, if you are really that blind get off the road and walk or take the bus.

It happens all over. Yes, it is too easy to get a drivers' license, it's been happening for way too many years. Kids act as if it's their 'birth right' to get their license as soon as they turn 16. Driving is a privilege NOT a right! Too many years now that we're into yet another generation of that thinking!
More over now that there's too many distractions, cell phones being the biggest. WHY, why must one be on the damned thing texting while driving? THERE'S NO REASON!!
I was always taught to keep my mind on the task at hand, and driving is driving, THE task at hand!!!

When I was in a rear end accident while riding my Met a few years back, the 17-19 year old that hit me said "I didn't see you!!"
"What do you mean?" I asked, "the last 3 or 4 miles you'd been behind me I could see you in my rear view mirror giving me dirty looks for not going faster?"

As I see it it boils down to this, an absolute degradation of our society, nobody, NOBODY, gives a rats' ass about ANYONE but themselves!!

Mutt the Hoople · Post by **Mutt the Hoople** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:51 pm

When I was in a rear end accident while riding my Met a few years back, the 17-19 year old that hit me said "I didn't see you!!"
"What do you mean?" I asked, "the last 3 or 4 miles you'd been behind me I could see you in my rear view mirror giving me dirty looks for not going faster?"

As I see it it boils down to this, an absolute degradation of our society, nobody, NOBODY, gives a rats' ass about ANYONE but themselves!!

EXACTLY!!!! Exactly!!!! That's it. The dirty looks that you saw for the last three or four miles. That really says it all. What happened to personal responsibility? If we were playing stickball or whatever on my neighbor's street, (which by the way my parents did not approve of... It was a quiet, dead end street and we all did it), and the ball damaged someone's car... We DID NOT DARE say it was the neighbors fault for parking his car in his driveway and not his garage. We never even thought of saying that. We had to take responsibility and pay for the damage... And then we got our behinds spanked for playing on the street when we were told not to. Period. No excuses. I don't exactly know when this current phase of narcissism began... Larger vehicals, cell phones, Snookie and reality television, but it needs to stop. We really need to start holding people accountable. I'm not a religious person but what about the Golden Rule... Great place to start.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:53 pm

In all this talk about cagers and the silly things they do let's not forget we choose to ride and are responsible for everything that happens to us on the road. Legally? No. In reality however, yes.

It's always our fault for just being out there. At the point of impact it does not matter who did what. Just that it happened and hindsight is 20/20.

So remember....INVISIBLE. And ride safe, all

rip to the rider and friends in family

jmer1234 · Post by **jmer1234** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:22 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

This wil make you think about what is being observed by anyone on the road. I know that I can get so focused on what the cars around me are doing that I will miss other things on the side of the road that may also affect me.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:25 pm

My sincerest apologizes if I took the 'meaning' of this thread off subject.

Condolences to the family and friends of our 'fallen comrade'

jmer1234 · Post by **jmer1234** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:31 pm

KABarash wrote:My sincerest apologizes if I took the 'meaning' of this thread off subject.

Condolences to the family and friends of our 'fallen comrade'

Hear, hear! My sincerest condolences as well.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:42 pm

jmer1234 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

This wil make you think about what is being observed by anyone on the road. I know that I can get so focused on what the cars around me are doing that I will miss other things on the side of the road that may also affect me.

Bear was not hi-vis no fair!!

Hear is another good thing for riders

http://www.msf-usa.org/riderperception/

jmer1234 · Post by **jmer1234** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:48 pm

JHScoot wrote:Bear was not hi-vis no fair!!

I was going to point that out, but did not want to give it away. Not all of us are riding in hi-vis gear.

I live just off an army base, and for years have watched the soldiers have to wear high-vis vests when riding a motorcycle on or off base. Never really understood the value until I started riding a scooter, but I do always see them.

Rusty J · Post by **Rusty J** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:32 pm

Mutt the Hoople wrote:I know what you are saying and you have a point. But to be very blunt, after reading about incident after incident, here and a lot of other places, I really think we give the drivers of cars way WAY too much of a pass. Perhaps where I live has jaundiced my view over the past few years because it is a busy area, I walk a lot, and I observe... But drivers... Too many of them just drive like entitled jerks. I was in my car yesterday and all I can say is WOW. I was in a parking lot for a smaller hardware store, (I was picking up a small drill press for a class I teach). There were plenty of spaces. I come out and the side of my door is streamed because someone pulled in too close and they hit my car backing up. WTF. No note, no nothing. Third time in as many months. My pristine car now looks like a city beater. I was bemoaning the fact to a friend and they said it was because I don't keep in garage. I don't have a garage. I live in an apartment. And that is not the reason anyway. It is because drivers do whatever, they don't pay attention, they text, eat, whatever... And then the don't take any responsibility for the damage they do because of their own carelessness. I am effing sick of it.

As far as now they perceive motorcycles, scooters, bicycles et. "oh, they were so small I didn't see them" ... BS!!!! You were NOT looking or you just did not care... Or you have a big SUV and you make it everyone else's responsibility to get out of YOUR way and when your selfish boneheadedness hurts or kills someone, you whine and say you didnt see them. BS!!!!

As far as the larger smaller visual thing goes... You see. Cat start across the road in front of you... You don't think oh, it's a Mountain lion... I don't have to worry because it is a block away, do you?

We are way too tolerant with these jerks. They don't see us because they don't think we have the right to be there. It's vehicular bigotry. Sure there are exceptions. But really, listen to their remarks. Sorry, if you are really that blind get off the road and walk or take the bus.

The cat thing -- in a low-attention traffic scan such as I was talking about, a cat wouldn't register at all, with predictable results.

I wasn't describing it with the intent of giving drivers a pass. You're supposed to be able to recognize everything in your path and accurately determine where it is and roughly how fast it's going. and you're supposed to have your full attention on the task of driving the vehicle. It's just that it's possible to "get by" most of the time with only partial attention to the road.

Except when it's not, and people end up hurt or killed.

And I have issues with driver skills requirements, but since I'm well into TL, DR territory here, I'll save that for a later post. Short version: we have bad drivers because we have bad mass transit.

Capt_Don · Post by **Capt_Don** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:52 pm

JHScoot wrote:In all this talk about cagers and the silly things they do let's not forget we choose to ride and are responsible for everything that happens to us on the road. Legally? No. In reality however, yes.

It's always our fault for just being out there. At the point of impact it does not matter who did what. Just that it happened and hindsight is 20/20.

So remember....INVISIBLE. And ride safe, all

rip to the rider and friends in family

To a point I can agree with you, we need to act in such a way when on the road. Yet that does not need to be our attitude at all times, and, it will do nothing to further our cause if we do.

Uncle Groucho · Post by **Uncle Groucho** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:58 pm

How we ride paints the picture cagers base their opinions on; the scooterists who don't wear safety gear or ride on the sidewalk or tailgate or drive like they're on a bicycle are the ones cagers want to hit.

The sad truth is that in their eyes, a streetwise scooterist in safety gear riding safely is as worthy a target as the yahoo in flip-flops who cuts through corner gas stations to avoid red lights.

For the hour or so my wife couldn't reach me on the phone, I *was* that poor guy on Friday, no matter how careful/careless he rode. I'm hoping Amy can get an article. I'm hoping the more scooters take the streets the more people look twice. I'm hoping parents teach their kids about safe driving by example instead of speeding while eating/texting/not paying attention. I'm hoping all of us make it home safe each and every time we leave it.

Stay safe/frosty/alive/beautiful, everyone.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:54 am

The left hand turn is the one that gets us the most. Back in the 70s, my brother was going to class as usual on a Suzuki GT380 (2-stroke,
for all you bluesmoke fans) and it happened to him at an intersection with a redlight. He ended up sprawled across the guy's hood. Got banged up but nothing permanent. The bike went into the car's fender well and the forks got bent, plus some other assorted damage. And yes, he said he "didn't see him."

I think hi-viz will help SOME but all it definitely does is remove the above excuse. I have to wear it practically every day at work because I often have to work in the roadway. People SEE roadway workers but they're still intent on getting where they're going so anything slowing them down is an annoyance. They would rather swerve than move their foot from the gas pedal to the brake. I think that being wrapped in a crash cage makes people less aware about how awful the aftermath of their mistake would be. It's just the way the mind works.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:01 pm

Southerner wrote:I think that being wrapped in a crash cage makes people less aware about how awful the aftermath of their mistake would be. It's just the way the mind works.

Agreed. I've been wracking my brains for forty years trying to figure out how to combat that. Some folks say that the best way to make yourself more visible is to use headlight/tailight modulators, but I don't know if the statistics bear that out. Is there any hard eveidence? Does anybody know?

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:40 pm

I don't know but I find them irritating. I think if they become commonplace, they will lose any effect they had. Like car alarms.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:32 am

Southerner wrote:I don't know but I find them irritating. I think if they become commonplace, they will lose any effect they had. Like car alarms.

I hate to say it, but I think you're 100% right.

What the heck is the solution? I've been thinking about this for four decades. It can't be an impossible problem. Somebody out there probably has a winning idea but is afraid to say it. We're not allowed to do flashing lights or sirens. What the heck can you do to snap cage drivers out of their trance?

P.S. My best idea, ever, was an anatomically-correct "Mae West" for riders. You can just imagine how unhappy that made the local cops.

That was many years ago, though, times have changed. Maybe something like that would work nowadays...

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:42 am

I don't think there's much one can do beyond wearing the brightest reflective clothing you can, including helmet, which, after all, is the highest object, and maybe the bike as well.

Incidentally, my helmet is a Gmax, which has a set of LEDs in the back that can either be set to steady red or blink. I don't use that feature except at night or other low visibility conditions.

You could go the route of some of the Goldwingers as well, and load the bike up with as many legal lights as possible, so it looks like a semi at night.

It's just like the discussions about helmets and armored gear. You have to decide what is your acceptable level of risk. Because there's always risk, especially on 2 wheels and naked to the world.

heatherkay · Post by **heatherkay** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:50 am

I don't even think lights and sirens would work, based on the number of drivers I've seen that don't seem to register that an ambulance or fire truck is coming up behind them.

Rusty J · Post by **Rusty J** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:11 am

Southerner wrote:I don't know but I find them irritating. I think if they become commonplace, they will lose any effect they had. Like car alarms.

Or having the headlight on constantly.
Daytime Running Lights, anyone?