Tires - The White Wall Dilemma

SockyTX · Post by **SockyTX** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:47 am

I recently purchased a 2012 Two-Tone Stella 4T. When purchasing my scoot, I had the dealer swap out the all black tires for the White Walls because I thought it would look good with the two-tone paint. Well it does look good, great in fact. (see for yourself http://youtu.be/AL_eDyx-BpQ )

My Question:
I have heard that the all black tire provides better handling and will not wear out as fast as the white walls.

Is this true?

What kind of life (mileage) can I expect to get out of my white walls?

When the time comes to replace them what would you recommend I purchase to replace them? I understand that product availability and new options my surface by the time I need to replace them.

Thanks for your input.

spr0k3t · Post by **spr0k3t** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:48 am

While the best white walled tires you can get are made by Maxxis, they are no longer making them. The second best option at this point is go with standard black walled tires of your choice. After that, get yourself a some good white wall tire paint. That stuff works great. What I would do personally, purchase the tires but don't have them mounted. Use a foam brush and apply the white wall paint and let dry. At that point you can have a good white wall tire that should last longer than your average white wall. I've heard as low as 4000 miles on a rear white wall Shinko. You can get a good Michelin City Grip or the S1 which should last much longer and have a better tread pattern for better corner grip.

talindsay · Post by **talindsay** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:55 am

I don't think if you compare a white wall tire to a same-type black wall tire you'll notice any difference in wear. Presumably the white walls require a slightly different rubber formulation for the sidewall, but I learned through a shipping-damaged spare that the white wall portion is only the outer layer of the sidewall anyway (about a quarter inch thick) and the sidewalls shouldn't experience any wear anyway - the wear is on the tread, which of course is the same for both black wall and white wall tires.

The real issue is that while you can buy dramatically better tires than the 1950s style tires that come by default on the scooter, you can only get these better tires with black sidewalls. In other words, because manufacturers only make white walls in retro style tires, the choice to run white walls precludes any modern tire design.

Tires such as the Continental Zippy 1, Michelin S1, Pirelli SL26 are dramatically superior in all aspects to classic block-tread scooter tires such as the Continental Zippy 3, Michelin S83, Pirelli SC30, etc. Tires of the former style are available with black sidewalls only; the latter have equivalent white sidewall variants (or have had such at times in the past).

But if you compare a Continental Zippy 3 to a Continental K62, they should ride pretty much identically, and wear pretty much identically. The K62 - the whitewall variant - will cost more money, require more work to clean, and look more fabulous. It won't ride any worse than a Zippy 3 - but why use a Zippy 3, which is a crappy 1950s design that doesn't even bring style? So I suggest either run retro white walls, or run modern black walls, and then you're not comparing apples to apples - you're comparing ugly performance with beautiful sloppiness.

My Stella 4t also came with white walls and it's the first time I've had them on a scooter - I'm not paying extra for lower-performance tires - but I do have to say they look damn fine. Some time soon I'm going to put my Zippy 1s, which are mounted on tubeless rims, onto my new Stella, but I'm going to keep the whitewalls on their rims for rallies and other times where I don't care much about performance and prefer to look awesome.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:14 pm

I'm very much not a fan of the stock whitewalls for the Stellas. They don't do well on hard stops, bumpy roads, tight cornering and wet surfaces. That said, I've never been happy with stock tires on any scoot I've owned. Admittedly, I'm pretty picky about tires.

The problem isn't whitewall vs. blackball but that no one is making a really good (especially tubeless) whitewall in Stella or Buddy sizes. On the other hand, there are many great blackwall tires out there, such as those mentioned above and my personal fave, the Heidenau K61s.

I have Continental Zippy 1s on my Stella now and I like them quite a bit.

I previously had Michelin S83s and they ride well. Not a high-performance tire, but good for most daily Stella riders. I'm not sure I'd equate them with 1950s technology. The materials and composition of the newer tires, even those with classic treads, is better than in the '50s. And still far better than the stock whitewalls.

kamuela5 · Post by **kamuela5** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:25 am

I swapped the stock whitewalls for Michelin S1 tires. The S1's track better on the crappy roads I ride on. The stock tires felt like they wandered when the road got bumpy or choppy. The stiffer sidewall on the S1 is probably why they perform better.

Nettar · Post by **Nettar** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:07 am

As a point of information -
Am I correct in assuming that if I want to swap out my stock tubed whitewalls for tubeless tires I'm looking at replacing not just the tires but the wheels? I'm thinking that the two-piece wheels that come stock aren't going to work for tubeless.

talindsay · Post by **talindsay** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:08 am

Right, different rims. Several years ago Zac over at Stellaspeed did a group buy on Sterling tubeless rims, and I've been extremely happy with them; I can't give an opinion about the other tubeless options since I haven't used them, but overall tubeless is a pretty big improvement over tube-type and worth the hassle and cost, IMO.

kamuela5 · Post by **kamuela5** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:10 am

You can still put a tube in a tubeless tire. I use tubes with my S1's. Someday I'll upgrade to tubeless rims but for now I'm a tuber.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:10 am

There just isn't the demand for whitewall any more. If there were, then we'd have a far greater choice. But, these days performance trumps appearance, and I cannot say I blame the average consumer on that point. The Zippy 1's are a nice tire for the price and quite grippy in the wet.

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:08 pm

Zippy 1 is a great choice.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:35 pm

neotrotsky wrote:There just isn't the demand for whitewall any more. If there were, then we'd have a far greater choice. But, these days performance trumps appearance, and I cannot say I blame the average consumer on that point. The Zippy 1's are a nice tire for the price and quite grippy in the wet.

Whitewalls can look good and I have run them, usually Continentals. Of course the Contis are notorious for getting back off a split rim!

If you like white walls that's fine, go with it! I think one reason that there is not a big selection for "classic" scooters is that vintage scooters didn't come with them.

I have a fully restored 68 SS 180, in my opinion the last or the true Vintage Vespa's (ymmv). I run zippy 3 tires because they are the closest I can get to the original tread pattern and still have a decent tire, and of course they are all black!

jmer1234 · Post by **jmer1234** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:38 am

I will say that I have seen the tires Genuine is putting on the latest batch of Stellas at my dealer, and I don't blame the OP for wanting to switch them. Something about the tread pattern on them make the scooter look like it has a club foot. It is just a heavy looking, all terrain tire of some kind. White wall or black wall, I would not want those tires.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:02 am

talindsay wrote:But if you compare a Continental Zippy 3 to a Continental K62, they should ride pretty much identically, and wear pretty much identically. The K62 - the whitewall variant - will cost more money, require more work to clean, and look more fabulous. It won't ride any worse than a Zippy 3 - but why use a Zippy 3, which is a crappy 1950s design that doesn't even bring style?

The only reason I run zippy 3s IS for style. The tread pattern is correct for a full concours restoration. Is that for everyone....nope...only for those that want to get everything (and I do mean everything!) back as close as possible to factory condition...down to the flywheel locking tabs and the correct sized lug nuts!

And yes...that is the wrong tail light for a 68. It took me two years to track down a tuna can, only used on the 68, but I found one! I just need to paint it and buff up the lens!

Different tires for different uses and purposes!

talindsay · Post by **talindsay** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:49 pm

BuddyRaton wrote: The only reason I run zippy 3s IS for style. The tread pattern is correct for a full concours restoration. Is that for everyone....nope...only for those that want to get everything (and I do mean everything!) back as close as possible to factory condition...down to the flywheel locking tabs and the correct sized lug nuts!

Yes, I suppose I meant for a Stella. They're the closest thing to the original tires that you'd want to ride on for a 60s restoration. Your bike looks fabulous, by the way.

JohnKiniston · Post by **JohnKiniston** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:54 pm

Here's a suggestion, Buy two sets of Whitewall Rings and use them with any tire you like.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/produ ... 0_79524000

Then you can have your nice tires and the look at the same time.

A friend has a set of Redwall inserts on his bike.

Also, Welcome to the forum Socky, I just reblogged your video on my Google + Yesterday saying how I like the way your bike looks and I'm thinking of doing up my blue bike in an inverse to your colorscheme

Silver Streak · Post by **Silver Streak** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:12 pm

Back in my youth (which was a LONG time ago) those things were called PortaWalls. Back then, also, all tires had tubes.

Wouldn't these affect the bead seal with tubeless tires? Seems logical to me that they would.

JohnKiniston · Post by **JohnKiniston** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:56 pm

Unless I'm mistaken they didnt' change the wheels so Stella's have Split rim tires containing Tubes.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:20 pm

JohnKiniston wrote:Unless I'm mistaken they didnt' change the wheels so Stella's have Split rim tires containing Tubes.

Correct. But they're all shipping with blackwalls now.

I haven't seen the new tires and don't know what they are (anyone?) but I'm confident they're an improvement!

SockyTX · Post by **SockyTX** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:10 am

Thanks everyone for your insight and opinions. I will let the white walls I currently own run their course. I have been able to recognize the difference between the ride on my Stella versus the scooter I used in my basic rider course. Mine feel a bit more splashy. I have a feeling I will be replacing them with a better performing tire within 6 months and then adding the white wall stick 'ems with the blue accent.

Check em out, that would be sick!

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/produ ... 0_79526000

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:51 am

The new blackwalls are Dunlop Maxi Life tires. Saw them on a new black Stella getting prepped at NoHo Scooters.

Silver Streak · Post by **Silver Streak** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:42 pm

JohnKiniston wrote:Unless I'm mistaken they didnt' change the wheels so Stella's have Split rim tires containing Tubes.

You missed my point. You said "use them with any tire you like."

Stellas do indeed come with split rims, but some folks on this thread are discussing switching to tubeless rims and using tubeless tires for the improved performance.

I don't think these inserts will work with tubeless tires that rely on a bead seal.