Engine additives to boost Compression- does it work?

rick71454 · Post by **rick71454** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:23 pm

Hello Buddyland:

Anyone ever tried putting an additive into the scooter engine to boost compression? If it works, your scooter would be stronger and or faster.

I heard of STP oil, Ceramizer, Lucas Oil Additive.

Thanks
Rick71454

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:30 pm

I see you're asking about oil additives, not fuel additives, so I assume you're asking in regard to a 2 stroke engine, which I have theories on but not enough to knowledge to commit. The only thing I've heard of oil additives ever accomplishing was conditioning seals to stop oil from being burned when it's not supposed to, but again, that's over in 4 stroke land.

As far as fuel additives (for anyone who wants to know) the general consensus is that stuff is snake oil. I know people use additives to clean engines, but they don't make them any faster. In fact, usually a little horsepower will be lost with additives. Octane rating isn't a quality rating of gasoline, it's a combustibility rating of gasoline. Octane needs to be higher in high compression engines to prevent detonation. Lower octane gas actually burns easier and works better in lower compression engines. For octane, the best bet is to go with what's closest to what the manufacturer recommends without going under.

rick71454 · Post by **rick71454** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:45 pm

Hello Rusty Shackeford:

Thanks for your knowledege.

What I meant was for 4T engines like the Buddy 125.
Those 3 products I mentioned are engine oil additives.

Anyone tried them or something like it meant to boost engine compresssion?

Thanks
rick71454

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:51 pm

That's what I was referencing. The way they "boost compression" is actually just restoring compression that's been lost. In a new engine, I bet you a Coke it won't make any difference. Someone else will have to chime in to claim otherwise, but best of luck to ya!

I just finished my "exhaustive research phase" on scooter performance though and have bunches of knowledge and ideas for it. Unfortunately I also have more excitement than money at the moment.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:57 pm

I think Rick is asking about oil additives for a four stroke engine.

Also known as 'Snake Oil' crankcase additives sometimes can restore compression if a ring is bound in the ring land area of the piston.
The manufacturers claim that cylinder wear can be reversed but the thinking person will be able to figure out that claim is likely B/S.

Anyways, it may be possible to restore compression due to ring wear or sticking just a bit but it seems like you were wondering if it could increase compression beyond the original design.
If I am correct, the answer is No.

Compression could only increase beyond the original design by changing something above the piston.....either the piston crown itself , creating a smaller combustion chamber, or machining the cylinder head were it meets the cylinder, again, making the combustion chamber smaller.
Although it sounds simple enouph, the potental for valve to piston interference arises and, being a chain driven overhead cam design, machining of the head would have a effect on cam timing.

Fun to think about though.

Rob

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:19 pm

^ This... if you wanted the technical details. Great post, Robbie!

Robbie wrote:I think Rick is asking about oil additives for a four stroke engine.

I know, that's why I was saying I only had knowledge on oil additives in 4 stroke engines. All data I've seen points to them being just as much of snake oil as fuel additives. I have a Buddy 125 also, but I assume 2 stroke Buddy riders will click on this thread as well.

Rick: Have you done any other performance mods?

rick71454 · Post by **rick71454** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:39 pm

Hello Robbie:

You are correct.....oil additives for 4 stroke, snake oil.........

Check this website out.......if the claims is true, most everyone would used it.

Buddyland.........you believe it?

Rick71454

http://www.ceramizer.com/content/view/29/41/

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:52 pm

Good Grief!

Yep, thats how they sell snake oil......also known as mechanic in a can.

We used to have a guy come out to our cruise nights with a Ford 300c.i. 6 cyl. engine mounted on a trailer with no oil pan.
The engine had been treated with a similar magic elixer.

He would run it on the trailer while shooting water from a hose at the rotating crankshaft......I don't know what that prooved.

But, since he was showing it to folks that intimatly know engines he never sold any of his 'magic elixer' and finally went away after a few weeks.

It was kindof interesting watching the exposed bottom end spinning about though.

Rob

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:00 am

Did you notice that it is marketed for engines that have high mileage on them, to restore compression? Break it in (a couple thousand miles at least) with regular oil, then put synthetic in it for the rest of its life.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:02 am

It lowered the idle speed?

Huh?

Idle speed's a target value for the ECU, not a result. The ECU makes adjustments to maintain that value (with the possible exception of allowing higher RPMS for cold starts). It doesn't just decide, "Gee, compression's looking good, guess I'll drop the idle a few percent".

Sheesh!

avonpirate · Post by **avonpirate** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:02 am

wait, wait, wait ..... are you telling me 'Mechanic in a Can" goes into the oil? That's not where I put it in my '81, Rabbit Convert, 92 Rabbit Convert, 91 Subie Wagon,'99 & 01 Beetle, 92 Previa and 07 Subie. Geez..... all these grad degrees and I misread the label????

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:05 am

avonpirate wrote:wait, wait, wait ..... are you telling me 'Mechanic in a Can" goes into the oil? That's not where I put it in my '81, Rabbit Convert, 92 Rabbit Convert, 91 Subie Wagon,'99 & 01 Beetle, 92 Previa and 07 Subie. Geez..... all these grad degrees and I misread the label????

UH.........?

Gonna tell us WHERE you put it........hmmmm?

Rob

avonpirate · Post by **avonpirate** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:21 pm

Ok Rob, I live in a coed locker room and my locker is between 2 studly men. I've always put mechanic in a can pre fill up similar to seafoam.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:59 pm

avonpirate wrote:Ok Rob, I live in a coed locker room and my locker is between 2 studly men. I've always put mechanic in a can pre fill up similar to seafoam.

Oh my!...nuff said.

Rob

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:11 am

hi guys how about carb cleaners like stp gas treatment and gumout and things? is this safe and effective to ride our carbs clean?

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:52 am

Name brand gasolines have more than enouph detergents to keep a carburetor clean.
About 15 years ago, the detergency level was increased to keep fuel injector pintles from sticking.....a benifit to anything carbureted.

The fuel additives today are more designed as a high level detergent to re-establish the fine spray pattern a fuel injector requires to avoid making fuel droplets (droplets are non-combustable....no oxygen in a droplet).

In the case of a carburetor, a small amount of cleaner may help clear debris from a passage or jet after incorrect storage, such as not draining the fuel bowl prior to winter put up, but it really isn't necessary for a properly running system.

Rob

MGM · Post by **MGM** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:50 pm

With today's gas, detergent isn't really the issue, rather it's the Ethanol that can crud things up. There are many previoue posts on this subject. I use Seafoam about every third tank. Through the winter, I ride at least twice a month, so I just alter the procedure to Seafoam with every fill up during that time. Works for me.

mhardgrove · Post by **mhardgrove** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:49 am

After re-reading the post, I wouldn't use any additive in hopes of making your scooter "stronger and or faster". Not to be a dick face, but you have a 125cc scooter, that is a TINY engine displacement! It was never intended to be a crotch rocket, as it was originally the PGO Bubu, made for smaller Asians before Genuine started importing them in 06! Not that this is a bad scooter, it isn't, it's just isn't made for highway speeds (note the smaller brakes with the rear being a drum, plus a single rear shock, and the fact it's a 125cc as my proof). This machine is also built and tuned at the factory for longevity, and tinkering around and using oil or gas additives can be a risky if you don't know exactly what your doing. Now Genuine makes a 170i and the BlackJack was a stock 150cc engine with matte black panels, different shocks, and a fancy brake disk (it was also not make for highway speeds). I can't speak for the 170i, but I doubt it's much faster at top speed than the 125/150 if they use the same transmission setup from the factory as the 125/150.

I am 235lbs and live in Denver. I see the limitations of the 125 for top speeds, as I have one and can attest to it personally. Yes, you can make this scooter faster or more powerful by doing things like adding a "big bore" kit that takes the CC to 161, you can add a new cylinder head and exhaust, you can even go into your transmission and add different weights and springs, just to scratch the surface.. Do a search for engine and transmission upgrades, people have done insane things to make their Buddy go really fast, but using additives to up compression was not one of them. Also, higher speeds= more heat= potentially shorter engine life (again search).

Again, not trying to be a dick face, just trying to prevent you from pouring a can of snake oil into your scooter and potentially doing harm. If your scooter is running fine and you want more speed, again, do a search or post exactly what you want out of your scooter and others will gladly give suggestion as to what you can do to achieve what your looking for. Best of luck to you!!!

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:56 pm

If you want to get some real insight into "miracle" additives, look for "boric acid" in this and some other scooter forums. The approach used by most of these hawkers is to take a little bit of hard science, mix it with a boatload of B.S., and then convince you that using it proves you're one of the intelligent few who's getting over on "the man".

The only additive I've ever found that makes anything run faster is prune juice.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:00 pm

Ethanol Sucks

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:45 pm

charlie55 wrote:The only additive I've ever found that makes anything run faster is prune juice.

Coffee increases my intestinal compression ratio. I explode with considerably more velocity within an hour. Probably faster than if I'd used Sea Foam.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:52 pm

Coffee and Oatmeal make me go (but not Oatmeal mixed with coffee

).

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:02 pm

but what OCTANE rating is the coffee?

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:04 pm

skully93 wrote:but what OCTANE rating is the coffee?

Probably 76. It causes unwanted detonation.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:00 pm

You guys crack me up. I'm laughing soo hard. It's like a sketch from Monty Python....