NSR, more Geek related: MS Surface pricing anounced

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:15 pm

Already pre ordered

$499 for 32 GB/2GB RAM/Quad Core

Regardless of your "afiliation", it's one cool little tablet. Had a chance to go with some other directors at my university to the local MS office to check it out in action, and DAMN... likey! It's about $100 less than the iPad, and comes with MS Office and a quad-core chip. I just wish the snap on cover wasn't extra

Eh, can't win them all, but at the price it's about what I expected.

If everything specs out like the first impression I got then this may end up being my primary portable, leaving my Vaio (aka "The Black Slab"... freakin' massive in comparison to most computers) at home or sitting in the booth during shows.

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/mss ... ayHomePage

As much as my little netbooks kept the weight light, thankfully an effective replacement has come. Anyone want a lightly used Galaxy Tab?

JBenjimin · Post by **JBenjimin** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:15 am

I saw Microsoft Surface and got all excited, then I started reading the thread and got even more excited only $499! Wow that is awesome! Then I read more and gleaned that this is not the same surface that Microsoft was showing a couple of years ago. No they I guess they renamed that Microsoft PixelSense, end excitement. Carry on.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:38 am

It looks like a well-engineered device, and I kind of wish I had a use for it, so I could justify buying one. But between my two TabletPCs (one slate, one convertible), my iPad, and my MacBook Air, I'm actually a little over-equipped with portables at the moment.

I'm actually more interested in the Surface Pro (so I could run standard Windows apps, and retire one or both TabletPCs), but I'm afraid the price will be more than I can justify.

phatch · Post by **phatch** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:41 am

LOLZ @ Apple hi-jack

Tristik · Post by **Tristik** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:25 am

~~
Maybe it's just because I, personally, don't have a use for one, but I've never really understood tablets. For 500 bucks I could find a pretty decent laptop that could whoop the shit out of a tablet.

What do you use these things for?
~~

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:08 am

Tristik wrote:~~
Maybe it's just because I, personally, don't have a use for one, but I've never really understood tablets. For 500 bucks I could find a pretty decent laptop that could whoop the shit out of a tablet.

What do you use these things for?
~~

Simplicity and portability. Ease of use. Same reasons why we have laptops and smartphones.

I have a laptop, but also a tablet. I used to bring the laptop to bed and prop it on my chest so I could read. Now that seems ridiculous.

There are also some things the tablet does better. I love using the tablet as a sketchbook, for instance.

rsrider · Post by **rsrider** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:31 am

I got a 32G Sony Tablet S with cradle for $260 recently. It also has a SD slot for another 32G it runs Android ICS which along with the ubber fast SD card means I can run movies right off the SD card, leaving the majority of storage on the device for apps. Yeah, I have games, but I also have drawing apps, and lots of photo apps. I think my photo editor on my tablet is better than anything I have on my laptop or netbook. It doesn't have 3G or 4G capability, which is fine with me because I don't want to pay for a data plan when my wife already has one for her ipad. But having this thing for awhile now, I can say without reservation that tablets are the fooking mad note. As long as they are decent quality that is. They're like scooters; stay away from the junk and you'll be fine. The only thing I don't like about tablets....the virtual keyboards....too, damn, small, at least for my mitts.

Milt · Post by **Milt** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:38 am

ericalm wrote:
"I used to bring the laptop to bed and prop it on my chest so I could read. Now that seems ridiculous. "

I must really be living in the stone age; I pick up a thing called a 'book' when I want to read...

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:37 am

ericalm wrote:
Tristik wrote:~~
Maybe it's just because I, personally, don't have a use for one, but I've never really understood tablets. For 500 bucks I could find a pretty decent laptop that could whoop the shit out of a tablet.

What do you use these things for?
~~
Simplicity and portability. Ease of use. Same reasons why we have laptops and smartphones.

I have a laptop, but also a tablet. I used to bring the laptop to bed and prop it on my chest so I could read. Now that seems ridiculous.

There are also some things the tablet does better. I love using the tablet as a sketchbook, for instance.

This is exactly why I've been waiting for the Surface: It does the portable side of computing, but comes with "real" apps like MS Office. It does essentially what my netbook does, but better. Will it replace my main laptop? No. That has 8GB of RAM, a Terabyte of on-board hard drive space and the connectivity I need for work. But, it's also in a very thick shell with an extended battery and full 10-key. Doesn't make for great commuting on a bike.

And, since it will be native to a Windows environment, the devices I have will work just fine. Just as someone who has a Macbook and an iPhone would choose an iPad. Getting your "stuff" to talk across devices is important, especially when you want to carry as little as possible.

I tried Android... I *REALLY* did, but it was just too clunky and unrefined. I liked the versatility, but it always feels unfinished. And, the killer was that I never found a good office suite for it. Exclude all of the recording and show production software that I use (which I hope will come to Windows RT, since it's a natural fit for schools and corporate environments who don't want to shell out full price for top end laptops for all employees), it's MS Office that I use and abuse the most. Even in basic form, the compatibility and the basics that I need really make my job run. It's funny how one suite of programs can dictate your entire computer, phone and tablet purchase, but when you use a software so much, it really can.

Although, and I know it will never happen, I really still wouldn't mind if Logic Pro came in a Windows 8 version. Then, I could be happy. I just want Logic Pro and the rest of it can stay over on the Mac side

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:41 am

Milt wrote:ericalm wrote:
"I used to bring the laptop to bed and prop it on my chest so I could read. Now that seems ridiculous. "

I must really be living in the stone age; I pick up a thing called a 'book' when I want to read...

Books became way too expensive for me. I went to Kindle and rarely look back, especially with technical manuals and stuff for school. My initial $69 purchase of a basic Kindle and the HUGE discounts on ebooks vs. regular books and textbooks have saved me about $1500 in 3 semesters. Sounds like a commercial, but I'm not kidding.

And, I so far have 63 books on a device that weighs less than one paperback. And we're not talking small books... many tech manuals are over 1,000 8 1/2x11 pages in physical form.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:00 pm

Milt wrote:ericalm wrote:
"I used to bring the laptop to bed and prop it on my chest so I could read. Now that seems ridiculous. "

I must really be living in the stone age; I pick up a thing called a 'book' when I want to read...

I'm a big fan of books—and magazines, newspapers and other printed materials. I worked in a bookstore for many years and have a small personal library I've been carting around with me for decades. I recently got excited about getting a big catalog in the mail.

While I won't say that digital media is in any way better or replicates the experience of a book, it sure makes things easier and cheaper. And much of what I consume—that is, buy simply to read, not to own—is better off in the form of bits than pages because I don't want it around when I'm done with it.

It's weird; I used to love to be surrounded by my physical media. I had shelves and shelves of books, records and CDs. Now, I want far less and I want what I keep to have meaning rather than just take up space.

Milt · Post by **Milt** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:44 pm

I can certainly sympathize with wanting to avoid clutter; 'my' books circulate through an anarchist 'library' system of friends' bookshelves.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:18 pm

FYI, if you are getting a wide screen surface tablet find the money for the keyboard cover or other bluetooth keyboard. I've been running Win 8 on my 10" Windows tablet and the keyboard takes up half the screen in landscape format. You maybe able to use the Office apps in portrait though. I've got the full version not RT so the Office versions will be a bit different. The RT version of Office was designed for tablets while I've installed the preview of Office 2013 but haven't had a change to actually use it.

FWIW, if I'm going to do a lot of typing on my iPad I want an external keyboard as well even though its screen keyboard takes up less space giving its height width ration compared to a widescreen formatted tablet.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:21 pm

cdwise wrote:FYI, if you are getting a wide screen surface tablet find the money for the keyboard cover or other bluetooth keyboard. I've been running Win 8 on my 10" Windows tablet and the keyboard takes up half the screen in landscape format. You maybe able to use the Office apps in portrait though. I've got the full version not RT so the Office versions will be a bit different. The RT version of Office was designed for tablets while I've installed the preview of Office 2013 but haven't had a change to actually use it.

FWIW, if I'm going to do a lot of typing on my iPad I want an external keyboard as well even though its screen keyboard takes up less space giving its height width ration compared to a widescreen formatted tablet.

Price wise-with the keyboard cover the Surface only comes out to about 20-30 bucks more expensive than the iPad without a keyboard (not that Apple intended to make one for the iPad in-house). For me this has been the biggest stumbling block for tablets: making them effective in the workplace. If Android came out with a tablet with MS Office on it with one of their keyboards in as small a package, I would of bought that in a heartbeat. It's really been the one deciding factor for me.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:27 pm

I concur on the ebook thing. It's pretty awesome, especially if you really like to read classics that are out of copyright. They are free, so the little money you spend on your device is almost nothing, Kindle here as well. I still buy books when I really really like something, but it's nice to just pick up special fancy editions for fans, and buy most of my other reading (stuff I'm not likely to read over and over) for 3-9 bucks on the kindle. Keeps the clutter cool, lol.

I haven't yet been able to justify buying any tablet, but I DO see the appeal.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:29 pm

I see quite a few folks at Starbucks with the small Apple bluetooth keyboard. I've got one of the rollup silicone keyboards that MS gave away at some event a few years ago which is a good small compliment. I expect it won't be too long before knock offs of the MS keyboard cover will show up on eBay just like various iPad magnetic covers are available for half the price of the official Apple ones.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:30 pm

Tom wrote:I concur on the ebook thing. It's pretty awesome, especially if you really like to read classics that are out of copyright. They are free, so the little money you spend on your device is almost nothing, Kindle here as well. I still buy books when I really really like something, but it's nice to just pick up special fancy editions for fans, and buy most of my other reading (stuff I'm not likely to read over and over) for 3-9 bucks on the kindle. Keeps the clutter cool, lol.

I haven't yet been able to justify buying any tablet, but I DO see the appeal.

Internet Archive has a lot of free ebooks and mp3s of old radio shows that are fun to listen to. http://archive.org/

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:53 pm

O goody! Another geek tech discussion!

I like the Surface RT but want to know more about just how close it can be to a "regular" laptop experience. I mostly use mine for an internet appliance these days but still need things like optical drives because I still "gasp" buy music on CDs. Now if the RT has something like WMP I might be interested.

Right now, tablets and laptops are not so much discrete items as the opposite ends of a spectrum. I've never seen so many different form factors.

I need a new laptop. I'm poking along well enough with Linux Mint on this old Dell but miss the convenience of Windows. I will probably be practical and buy a mid-range Windows 8 conventional laptop.

I'll stick with my current tablet. I have one of the $100 HP Touchpads. It's great for content consumption but not for keyboarding. If you see me post with some weird typos, it's probably the Touchpad. I hate all onscreen keyboards.

Said Touchpad makes for a usable, but not great, reading experience. For my ebooks, I'm trying to decide between the e-ink machines from Kindle or B&N. Kindle has the edge now with the excellent Paperwhite display but I hate that Amazon cripples it with a measly 2gb storage (down from a HUGE (not) 4gb in earlier versions. At least the Nook GloLight has a card slot.

I'd be interested in finding out more about what apps MS has waiting for the Surface and how close it comes to the usual suite of MS apps out of the box.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:02 am

Well, MS says that the RT will come with XBOX Music (the replacement with media player with the Zune player guts... best media player I've found), MS Office, Windows Explorer 10 and MS Mail at least. I do hope they offer versions of movie maker and live writer but who knows. Right now they are positioning it right where it needs to be: More powerful than the iPad, but not a "laptop replacement". A tablet as it stands right now is a consumption only device, and the input method is the reason why.

The Touchpad was a failed product out of the gate: Too expensive, too underpowered and WebOS wasn't going anywhere by the time the Pixi came out. And, everyone fought the hordes trying to get the 100 buck clearance tablets, and after using one, I don't know if it was worth the fight. The OS, while it seemed great on a phone, just seemed laggy and not a good fit on a larger screen. Of course, the dead-OS-walking system was doomed from the start, and right when they got clearanced they were worthless because you knew you'd never see updates for your apps.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:54 pm

I already have an IPad 2 ... or perhaps I should say my wife has an IPad as I very rarely get my hands on it. I was going to wait for the next IPad version to get my own, but this looks intriguing. There might be something to be said for bridging both tablet technologies my having both available under our roof.

For those that might be concerned with the lack of 4G capabilities, check out the various independent mifi devices as an option. As we spend most of our weekends in a place without wifi, we purchased the Verizon 3G IPad. Since then I've received a mifi device for my job and find that to be a much more versatile option.

Rob

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:46 pm

neotrotsky wrote:Well, MS says that the RT will come with XBOX Music (the replacement with media player with the Zune player guts... best media player I've found), MS Office, Windows Explorer 10 and MS Mail at least. I do hope they offer versions of movie maker and live writer but who knows. Right now they are positioning it right where it needs to be: More powerful than the iPad, but not a "laptop replacement". A tablet as it stands right now is a consumption only device, and the input method is the reason why.

Make that IE 10 not Windows Explorer 10.

I don't know about tablets as consumption devices only. I've used a tablet pc as my primary OS since 2002. Over the years I've had both convertibles and slates. My current primary system is a Motion J3500 slate with an i7 processor and Wacom digitizer/touch screen. It will run everything you want to throw at it. That's why I have a problem with the RT version coming out. It is a consuming not creating device. However, if you want a device that is primarily for consuming content and mail/social stuff then RT maybe a good choice. It will all depend on what Apps become available. In any event I'm glad that Surface is generating interest. I like options so adding Win 8 RT to compete with IOS and Android is a good thing in my book even if I'll stick to Win 8 Pro for my little tablet and Win 7 64 Ultimate for my i7 tablet.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:56 pm

cdwise wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:Well, MS says that the RT will come with XBOX Music (the replacement with media player with the Zune player guts... best media player I've found), MS Office, Windows Explorer 10 and MS Mail at least. I do hope they offer versions of movie maker and live writer but who knows. Right now they are positioning it right where it needs to be: More powerful than the iPad, but not a "laptop replacement". A tablet as it stands right now is a consumption only device, and the input method is the reason why.
Make that IE 10 not Windows Explorer 10.

I don't know about tablets as consumption devices only. I've used a tablet pc as my primary OS since 2002. Over the years I've had both convertibles and slates. My current primary system is a Motion J3500 slate with an i7 processor and Wacom digitizer/touch screen. It will run everything you want to throw at it. That's why I have a problem with the RT version coming out. It is a consuming not creating device. However, if you want a device that is primarily for consuming content and mail/social stuff then RT maybe a good choice. It will all depend on what Apps become available. In any event I'm glad that Surface is generating interest. I like options so adding Win 8 RT to compete with IOS and Android is a good thing in my book even if I'll stick to Win 8 Pro for my little tablet and Win 7 64 Ultimate for my i7 tablet.

Sorry... IE. My age is showing

As for RT being "Consumption Only", the fact that it has a keyboard AND MS Office already makes it productive for anyone who works with paperwork. Office workers, students, foremen and just about anyone else who has a document or spreadsheet will find this 1000% more useful than a tablet with just an on-screen keyboard.

Apple designed their devices to be consumption only: No expandable memory or USB port (In fact, a strong fight to make sure NOTHING can be plugged into the device except for what Apple tells you to), no factory provision for a keyboard and a lack of any decent office productivity apps as bemoaned by friends of mine who have the iPad. Granted in my industry there has been a push by lighting and audio console manufacturers to turn it into a remote desk which has seen some good results. But, for me one application or set of applications does not a useful device make at $500-600. The Kindle Fire, while a great tablet, followed this model of consumption only which is why I think the RT version will take off regardless how much "industry experts" want Microsoft to fail.

I've tried the consumption only tablets. They just don't work for me. This is why I have high hopes for the Surface

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:09 pm

I agree that Win 8 RT will be better from a productivity point of view but I'm just not sure how much better. I know quite a few folks who use a bluetooth keyboard quite successfully with iPads. I can get by with it for short periods but I discovered on my trip to DC earlier this year that if anything unexpected crops up it simply isn't adequate. Office wouldn't have helped me because I needed dev tools that won't run on RT but will run on Pro. That's why RT won't cut it for me but will for many with Office on it. Though I've heard some complaints that the mail client isn't up to handling multiple IMAP accounts and Outlook doesn't come in the RT version of Office. I expect that may change though. I know some folks working with MS to come up with better alternatives.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:20 pm

For developer tools, that's why there is windows 8 Pro. Also, this tablet runs on an ARM architecture. I wouldn't expect this to run a multi-track recording session that I expected to get paid from on a chip and memory with such low specs compared to a core i5/core i7 machine with 8GB of RAM or more. But, for the average office worker, student or housewife this very well could replace the bulky machines they have now. Most $2000+ MacBook "Pros" and Vaios out there now are simply being used as glorified Facebook machines anyway. I don't remember where I read it, but several universities did a survey of the average use of consumer grade computers and random users and they determined the average population only uses something like less than 20% of their computer's actual processing power.

As for the bluetooth keyboard option, I never found that a legitimate argument. The last thing I need is something clunky that is not attached to my device that requires yet another battery to charge. I've had friends who are iPad users say that using a bluetooth keyboard with their iPad was how it was "designed", when in fact it was clearly not designed to have a keyboard at all. And, having two things to carry as opposed to one makes no sense.

As for the mail client, the university I work with insists on running a secured access version of Gmail, and it's just a nightmare frankly. Every employee and professor hates it and it does nothing well. They are trying to make the Gmail client something it's not and it shows.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:18 pm

I have the one below. Which is very good for traveling, especially on the scoot since I have more faith in the aluminum cover than the vinyl/leather ones. It does make the iPad more versatile without adding bulk. Without a mouse though it is still very limited for creating, fingers just don't work as well.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:02 am

The question of how powerful an RT is will also come into play. I'm not trying to run AutoCad any more but I do like to use Google Earth and it seems to suck up a lot of processor time.

Apple's upscale cachet seems to get it into doors where it would otherwise not be admitted. There's a certain institution around here where they have been introduced to the staff even though IT hates them and it is otherwise an all-MS house. For staff use they are locked down to just the productivity apps and they are not well-liked. The users would rather go back to the outdated MS tablets they were using before. They made it in the door because certain highly-placed personnel like them and insisted on their use.

In another case, I just picked up the latest copy of Flying magazine and Ipads are all that are seen for various dedicated flight apps. Given the cost of private flight these days, people who can afford it wouldn't quibble at buying Ipads.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:59 pm

Surface makes for a nice commercial.

cdwise wrote:I have the one below. Which is very good for traveling, especially on the scoot since I have more faith in the aluminum cover than the vinyl/leather ones. It does make the iPad more versatile without adding bulk. Without a mouse though it is still very limited for creating, fingers just don't work as well.

I like using a stylus for a lot of things, including drawing. I'm really looking forward to more pressure-sensitive styli becoming available and more apps adding support for these. I don't think I'll be doing big-time photo retouching and editing on an iPad anytime soon, but it makes for a very good sketchbook!

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:27 pm

neotrotsky wrote: The Touchpad was a failed product out of the gate: Too expensive, too underpowered and WebOS wasn't going anywhere by the time the Pixi came out. And, everyone fought the hordes trying to get the 100 buck clearance tablets, and after using one, I don't know if it was worth the fight. The OS, while it seemed great on a phone, just seemed laggy and not a good fit on a larger screen. Of course, the dead-OS-walking system was doomed from the start, and right when they got clearanced they were worthless because you knew you'd never see updates for your apps.

Eh, I tossed CyanogenMod on mine. The cheap hardware works nicely with a regularly updated OS and having Google Play makes it much more handy.

Surface looks great and I'd love to get one (particularly to use Win8 as intended), but the toy budget is gone for a while.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:44 pm

I bought the TP for $100 and for that, it's quite a nice tablet. Not great but good. I don't think is was anything like worth the original price they had for it but then again, a lot of tablets were overpriced at the time.

Its biggest problem was Apotheker and his distaste for all things hardware. Who wants to buy a product when the maker doesn't support it? Nevertheless HP has hired back some of its WebOS people under very quiet circumstances. Nobody knows why.

I don't mean to come down on the iPad. It's a great consumer product and noticeably faster than the TP.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:09 pm

ericalm wrote:I like using a stylus for a lot of things, including drawing. I'm really looking forward to more pressure-sensitive styli becoming available and more apps adding support for these. I don't think I'll be doing big-time photo retouching and editing on an iPad anytime soon, but it makes for a very good sketchbook!

I bought a used iPad1 to use as a comics reader and couch computer, but the lack of proper pressure-sensitive stylus support makes any iPad a non-starter for me as a drawing tool. For that I need a TabletPC... or a bigger less-widescreen version of the Surface Pro (to run Photoshop or Manga Studio) would be very nice.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:49 pm

TVB wrote:
ericalm wrote:I like using a stylus for a lot of things, including drawing. I'm really looking forward to more pressure-sensitive styli becoming available and more apps adding support for these. I don't think I'll be doing big-time photo retouching and editing on an iPad anytime soon, but it makes for a very good sketchbook!
I bought a used iPad1 to use as a comics reader and couch computer, but the lack of proper pressure-sensitive stylus support makes any iPad a non-starter for me as a drawing tool. For that I need a TabletPC... or a bigger less-widescreen version of the Surface Pro (to run Photoshop or Manga Studio) would be very nice.

Sadly, not many makers are producing traditional or any non-widescreen formats anymore. I've got a couple of Motions (10-12") and the 12" is better for drawing. Not just because it is a better format , closer to a sheet of paper but because it has a better digitizer. It uses Wacom and an Intel i7 but that isn't available in the lower price smaller 10" version. That one uses an Intel Oakbridge and Ntrig pen input but it does support multi pressure levels.

I've seen fantastic art created on the ipad such that I only image what the person could do with a good pressure sensitive tablet. Me, I'm a hack but I have fun.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:15 am

There are pressure-sensitive BT styli available for the iPad but I haven't tried them out yet. I have an iPad 1, so I think only one stylus works and it uses an iPhone as a BT bridge or something weird like that.

I do all my photo work using a Wacom tablet, and so some drawing with it. It's just not portable enough, though.

Is Surface actually shipping with a pressure-sensitive pen? I can't find that on the MS site.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:28 am

ericalm wrote:There are pressure-sensitive BT styli available for the iPad but I haven't tried them out yet. I have an iPad 1, so I think only one stylus works and it uses an iPhone as a BT bridge or something weird like that.

I do all my photo work using a Wacom tablet, and so some drawing with it. It's just not portable enough, though.

Is Surface actually shipping with a pressure-sensitive pen? I can't find that on the MS site.

The surface RT doesn't come with a pen. Comes with ALOT of cool tricks, but no pen or at least not right off the bat. I'm sure there will be a 3rd party option. I'm more stoked for the inclusion of the desktop environment for full file management and MS Office. The SDXC card support and full USB port are just icing on the cake.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:44 pm

ericalm wrote:There are pressure-sensitive BT styli available for the iPad but I haven't tried them out yet. I have an iPad 1, so I think only one stylus works and it uses an iPhone as a BT bridge or something weird like that.

I just don't see these as realistic options for me. They're very clever, but they're still kludges to work around Apple's design choice to only support touch input.

I do all my photo work using a Wacom tablet, and so some drawing with it. It's just not portable enough, though.

I have a TabletPC that I use in slate mode (Lenovo X60) which has a decent 12" screen, but it's heavier and clunkier than a drawing tablet should be.

Is Surface actually shipping with a pressure-sensitive pen? I can't find that on the MS site.

The Surface Pro is supposed to include a Wacom digitizer and stylus. A stylus that works with the Surface RT is going to be right back to kludge country.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:26 pm

ericalm wrote:There are pressure-sensitive BT styli available for the iPad but I haven't tried them out yet. I have an iPad 1, so I think only one stylus works and it uses an iPhone as a BT bridge or something weird like that.

I do all my photo work using a Wacom tablet, and so some drawing with it. It's just not portable enough, though.

Is Surface actually shipping with a pressure-sensitive pen? I can't find that on the MS site.

I don't think the MS Surface does but there are plenty of other tablet makers who will be shipping Win 8 tablets that do offer pens, pressure sensitive with digitizer. Though I suspect they will mostly be running the full version of Win 8 not RT. There are a couple I've got my eye one. One Samsung and another is this one http://www.zdnet.com/kupa-ultranotes-wi ... offers-mod I like the options on it and the ability to add to them later not to mention the easily replaceable battery.

Edit: I used to have a Lenovo convertible. My son has it now and agree it is too clunky for drawing, not so much the weight as the thickness. My Motion J3500 is considerably better but the Samsung slates I've used a bit are very similar to holding an iPad in terms of weight and size which makes them a very good drawing tablet. The second one I linked to should be good as well and is my most likely next tablet. Though to be honest I'm not sure I won't flatten it to put Win 7 on it. I'm trying but just can't get that productive with Win 8 even though I have the full not RT version. I do almost everything in the desktop not the new interface (except I have to switch to the app interface or use search to launch programs which is a real PIA.)

amy · Post by **amy** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:53 pm

Thousands of years from now, when we are extinct, we'll have left behind millions of flat gadgets in sizes S, M and L. What a wonderful legacy!

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:59 pm

Many components of computers can be recycled. It's up to us to do it.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:10 pm

cdwise wrote:I have the one below. Which is very good for traveling, especially on the scoot since I have more faith in the aluminum cover than the vinyl/leather ones. It does make the iPad more versatile without adding bulk. Without a mouse though it is still very limited for creating, fingers just don't work as well.

Is that a bluetooth keyboard? We purchased a separate keyboard for our IPad 2, bu tas you mentioned, the added bulk and weight makes it semi-impractical at times ... thus we don't use it much. This looks like a better way to go.

Rob

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:23 am

Just read an article on CNet where a guy is explaining that MS is going to run into trouble because it hasn't sufficiently distinguished RT from full Windows 8, or at least, not in terms the non-techies (which means most of us) can understand.

The expected fallout is that such persons will buy these expecting to be able to install and use the same programs as on their previous Windows computers.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:37 pm

Yeah, the combination of launching Windows 8, plus a new tablet that runs Windows RT (not Windows 8 ) – on the same day – is definitely a source of confusion.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:49 pm

TVB wrote:Yeah, the combination of launching Windows 8, plus a new tablet that runs Windows RT (not Windows 8 ) – on the same day – is definitely a source of confusion.

There are some who keep saying this... and I don't get it. Are people really that dim? That's like saying the release of the iPad and a new Mac computer is too confusing.

Then again, people will do whatever they're told to find any flaws. Apple is too trendy for people to look at other options. Most people are insisting that it "sucks" and the ones I've met who say that actively say "Oh, I've never used it! Can't pay me to!!!" While typing on their windows 7 machines

As for windows 8... downloading it next week if the cash gets better after the rent and such is paid. Pretty stoked considering the performance jumps my friends have seen in their machines

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:02 pm

If they'd called RT something like "Windows Tablet" it might have helped. People see a screen and keyboard and think "laptop.". The touchscreen doesn't set it apart because W8 is also a touchscreen OS.

And I don't mean this to be condescending to them but yes, many people are that dim. Then there's those who really don't have the time or inclination to mess with their computers further than to do just what they need.. For example, I would really like to know more about Linux since I've been using Mint on this old laptop. The Packet Manager is giving me fits and is more fiddly than Lubuntu. I just don't have the time to dig through all the info that is freely available on the forums.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:43 am

neotrotsky wrote:Then again, people will do whatever they're told to find any flaws.

Oh, please. Finding flaws in technology is what I do for a living, and I do it with every tech company. For example: the price of the iPad Mini is too high, keeping the iPad2 on the market makes no sense, and calling the new one "iPad with Retina Display" instead of "iPad4" is confusing. And that's just my commentary on the iPad line; if you have the time, I can also tell you what Apple's doing wrong with the Mac and iPhone, and what Amazon, Google, Oracle, Sony, HP, Dell, Motorola, RIM, Nokia, Samsung, and LG are doing wrong.

I can also tell you what they're doing right... and despite mistakes such as failing to clarify to consumers the difference between the models, the Surface is doing some of them for Microsoft. It's why (as I said) I'm interested in the Surface Pro... I'm even going to ask my boss to buy one for me to use when it comes out (not because I have a work-related need for it, but because I like the hardware).

So kindly drop the paranoid and insulting rants.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:06 pm

I was tending toward the Pro myself but I think at this time I will be better served with a conventional laptop loaded with W8, I still need "legacy" stuff like optical and hard drives. If I didn't need that stuff, I might even be tempted to give that $249 Chromebook a try. Yes, I know it's really just a browser and is net-dependent.

Given my budget, I will continue to rock the Touchpad as my tablet in the near future, anyway. If I was getting a new one, some Android or other tablet seems most likely but after the dust settles, maybe the RT devices will be price-competitive.

In any case, I think the RTs will force pretty much everybody but Apple to introduce tablets with included keyboards of some sort. I never could quite believe those folks who swear they can type onscreen as well as they can on a real keyboard.

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cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:26 pm

Back from Canoe Instructor training and back to computers.

Friday before leaving town I went to a launch event for Windows 8 and got to see a Surface tablet for the first time. I will say that I found it a surprise. The pictures I've seen simply don't do it justice. The keyboard cover is far better than any keyboard I've tried with my iPad 3 (or the 2 my son now has as a hand me down or the original my mother in law has). Despite being flat there is a texture difference for the keys that made me feel like I was using a keyboard even without the travel you have on a normal keyboard. They didn't have at the event one of the other style that has some travel like the Logitech I use with the iPad (best keyboard for it, adding little bulk and protection). The things that impressed me was how elegant it felt and looked. the back angle on the edge made it appear even thinner that it actually is and quite comfortable to hold. The kickout that lets it stand up at a comfortable reading angle sitting on a table made me wonder why I had so much trouble with Apple magnet cover keeping the iPad easy to read while getting a snack. The keyboard also solves my biggest problem with the Surface's high def screen proportions which is the keyboard taking up half the screen when its launched. For using 100% without a physical keyboard the iPad still wins on usability. The height x width ratio us just that much better on the iPad for touch only. The ability to use USB sticks, add storage through the micro sd reader and connect to a TV or monitor directly through the mini HDMI connector is a plus but where I can see it being used by our clients and many folks here is that the danged thing is rugged. Pop that under your seat and go. It has gorilla glass and can take 4' drops with ease (more probably but that's all MS warranties). It comes with Office home and student (preview version now, free upgrade to release when it comes out in a month or whatever) so that makes it useful for field work assuming Microsoft gets some sort of licensing for business use of the RT version of Office for its enterprise customers.

I had no intention of buying a Surface RT but after seeing it I and getting a 10% off card plus my partner winning a $100 gift card I suspect I'll have one before the end of the week. It does need work on the mail app but that's fixable (hopefully) so it may end up replacing my iPad as my toss in the bag I'm heading out for coffee tablet. I still don't plan on replacing Win 7 on my primary system.

BTW, if you are planning on getting Win 8, get the download version before the launch offer expires. $39.99 for any current Windows user or $14.99 if you bought a new computer after June 2. Sure beats the boxed version at $69.99 ($59.00 at Tiger Direct and some other places) just make sure you archive or burn to disk a copy or two in case you ever need to reinstall. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411438,00.asp

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:24 pm

So does anyone have their hands on the Surface yet? I'm looking for an early review as this is a potential Bday/Christmas present for my daughter.

Rob

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:21 pm

Rob wrote:So does anyone have their hands on the Surface yet? I'm looking for an early review as this is a potential Bday/Christmas present for my daughter.

Rob

I was going to get one, but we had two financial emergencies that popped up that sucked up the cash

But, after downloading Windows 8 and spending about 2 hours at the Microsoft store playing with them, I'm soooo hooked! From the store units I've used the OS is fluid and dead simple to use. On the PC the learning curve is steep, but if you have a touch mouse or a multitouch trackpad, the difference is night and day. Both OS's have the classic environment, but the Surface just makes the most use out of it. The hardware is amazingly top notch, and dare I say a grade above Apple. The real stunner is the keyboard. I was actually typing faster on the touch keyboard than the mechanical option one within 5 minutes. It just seems so effortless to use, and I'm usually VERY critical of tablets in general.

The Microsoft Office they include is the "Home and Student" version, which includes Excel, Word, Powerpoint and Outlook (it may include publisher...I don't remember). And, it's the full version, not a preview. That alone makes this a damned good value.

Another employee at work as one, and I have yet to see her bring her laptop into the office. The battery life for her is around 10 hours to a charge, and she's in love with the thing. Everyone I know who has bought one turns into the same kind of person who buys a Buddy scooter: They get obsessed with it.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:21 pm

Correction - Home and Student does not include Outlook. I wish it did because the mail app is the terrible. It is fixable and it does need to be fixed. Its bad enough that I'm using webmail which I hate when I'm using the Surface. On my Win 8 Pro tablet I have the RC for Office 2013 which does include Outlook.

What you get right now is the Preview edition of Office 2013 Home and Student but that's because MS isn't shipping the final version yet. Once it is released at the end of this month you get the full version via Update.

I'll agree that the hardware is top notch. I don't know why it surprised me so much since anytime MS has ventured into hardware they've actually made very good products. I use MS keyboards and mice with my Apple systems.

The current Surface is the RT version which will only run apps not full Windows programs so it is closer to an iPad than a real computer in that respect but with Office Home & Student it can be all someone who's primary use is web surfing, social media and school work will probably need. I'll be glad when Adobe comes out with the Win app versions of its Photoshop Touch and a few of their other touch based apps. Then it will be sweet.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:41 am

Don't get me started on financial emergencies. I just got one plopped on me that's going to cost about as much as a new Surface. Hurts even worse on my readjusted income.

I'm glad to hear from real people that it's looking so good. The tech sites seem to be in some sort of competition with each other seeing who can bash it the worst.

I'd be surprised if it's without hiccups but they'll make it work.

Thanks for the input about the keyboard. My biggest complaint about the onscreen kind is the lack of any way to index your fingers on the home row by feel. Keys don't actually have to depress.

spr0k3t · Post by **spr0k3t** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:32 am

The only way I would consider getting one is if I could load anything I wanted on it. Sadly the boot loader is completely locked and therefore no Linux love for it. However, I would still consider a surface if my only other option was from apple.