Clutch seized up - sort of. Edit after repair.

[Tocsik]

*Edit after fixing the problem.*


I talked my wife through the list of tools I thought I needed to free up the CVT and maybe load the scooter in the truck. While I was waiting for her, I searched the interwebs and found a HF 20% coupon thinking we would be buying a motorcycle ramp and muscling the scooter into the truck.
She drove on out to the hospital and I proceeded to tear down the CVT (thank the Lord for the Harbor Freight Chicago Electric impact wrench!).
Nothing actually looked out of the ordinary in there until I came to the realization that the clutch nut had backed out quite a bit. Not the 19mm nut on the outside of the clutch bell but the main nut that holds the clutch to the driven pulley! .
This caused the clutch bell to bind against the clutch nut which effectively froze up the whole rear end.
One tool I didn't think to ask for was my Stillson pipe wrench so we headed to HF and I bought a new one for $8.99 - 20% and a $2 tub of hand cleaner. I have found the Stillson pipe wrench is the perfect tool for the clutch nut (combined with a strap wrench to hold the clutch while tightening the nut).
We headed back to the hospital and I tightened the clutch nut with a strap wrench (which I had thought to ask the wife to bring), threw everything back to together and we were on our way!
When we got home my wife (who has never watched me wrenching on anything) said "You're so talented!". I asked "Did I impress you?" She said "Yes, you did." Kissed me and made me feel great!

__________________________________________________
Original post:

So I think my clutch seized on me this morning. On the ride in, I was at a stop and it felt like the clutch didn't disengage fully. The engine almost died but I gave it a little bit of throttle to keep it running. When I pulled-in to the campus and had to stop again, it was a little worse and I let the engine die until the dudes holding up traffic for construction let us go again. Started right up and rode in to the garage where it died when I stopped.

The rear wheel won't even turn so my wife is on her way with a bunch of tools so I can break down the transmission so it will at least roll. Then, we have to go to HF and buy a ramp so we can get it in back of the truck.

Wish me luck. Kinda sucks because I'll miss a few days in the 70's before we get some cold, wet weather.

[az_slynch]

Any odd noises or smells from the clutch after the first near-stall?

Stock or performance clutch?

How many miles on the clutch?

Will it roll if pushed backwards?

[Tocsik]

Any odd noises or smells from the clutch after the first near-stall?

Stock or performance clutch? Performance

How many miles on the clutch? 14,300!

Will it roll if pushed backwards? Completely frozen

But, I guess none of that mattered since the clutch nut had backed out a bit.
I guess I now have one more item on my regular maintenance routine!

[Skootz Kabootz]

Sweet! Good find and fix Toxic. I'm so glad it all worked out and wan't too expensive. And I totally agree—that Chicago Electric Impact Wrench is some of the best money you'll ever spend. I love mine.

[az_slynch]

Any odd noises or smells from the clutch after the first near-stall?

Stock or performance clutch? Performance

How many miles on the clutch? 14,300!

Will it roll if pushed backwards? Completely frozen

But, I guess none of that mattered since the clutch nut had backed out a bit.
I guess I now have one more item on my regular maintenance routine!

A touch of blue Loctite will go a long way here!

Is it an NCY clutch? I worked on Howardr's NCY after it last faulted on him. The torque reduction bearing was pretty much seized up and needed new ball bearings, the shoes were drilled wrong and were dragging on the base plate and the Sliding sheave wasn't an NCY...it was a standard PGO sheave (stamped as such!) I refurbished it, but I think it needs more tuning to perform correctly.

[Tocsik]

Yeah, it's the blue NCY racing clutch.
I thought everything was fixed but the symptoms returned this morning on the way to work so I'm wondering if the bearings are toast and that's what caused the nut to back out again.
I know I need to Loctite the threads but didn't want to take the nut all the way off and try and wrestle that 1500 spring back on while repairing at work.
When I had the clutch and driven pulley off last night, it all spun around quite nicely after tightening down the clutch nut but maybe there is more going on than I'm able to see without removing the clutch, torque driver and bearing sleeves. Hopefully, it's something I can take care of myself even if I just end up ordering a new rear pulley system.

[az_slynch]

Yeah, it's the blue NCY racing clutch.
I thought everything was fixed but the symptoms returned this morning on the way to work so I'm wondering if the bearings are toast and that's what caused the nut to back out again.
I know I need to Loctite the threads but didn't want to take the nut all the way off and try and wrestle that 1500 spring back on while repairing at work.
When I had the clutch and driven pulley off last night, it all spun around quite nicely after tightening down the clutch nut but maybe there is more going on than I'm able to see without removing the clutch, torque driver and bearing sleeves. Hopefully, it's something I can take care of myself even if I just end up ordering a new rear pulley system.

Take it out, pop it apart and check the contra spring bearing. The lip that sits against the clutch base plate should spin freely. That went south on Howardr's NCY and caused all kinds of problems. It can be popped apart, but it's full of 1.5mm ball bearings; open it over a plastic tub. I replaced the bearings with these:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/K ... QgodeSAA2w

I cleaned all the grit and trash out of the races and used TriFlow Teflon dry lubricant to keep it running smooth. Seemed to fix it, and it cost less than a replacement:

http://enviromoto.ecrater.com/p/6056079 ... pring-seat

You added a 1500rpm contra spring? I know the NCY came with a 1000rpm spring stock. When I redid Howardr's, I changed it to a 1500rpm spring to allow a better take-off and I set the sliding secondary ramps up on the steeper setting. I figured it'd help the contra spring get him into lower gear faster when off throttle. Still need to put stiffer clutch shoe springs in and maybe up the slider weights.

[skully93]

I'd be interested in the final builds. Tocsik is local to me so when my plus plan with our local shop is up, I'll probably be asking his guidance one some upgrades. The two of you have a very good idea of what is going on in there!

[Tocsik]

Yeah, it's the blue NCY racing clutch.
I thought everything was fixed but the symptoms returned this morning on the way to work so I'm wondering if the bearings are toast and that's what caused the nut to back out again.
I know I need to Loctite the threads but didn't want to take the nut all the way off and try and wrestle that 1500 spring back on while repairing at work.
When I had the clutch and driven pulley off last night, it all spun around quite nicely after tightening down the clutch nut but maybe there is more going on than I'm able to see without removing the clutch, torque driver and bearing sleeves. Hopefully, it's something I can take care of myself even if I just end up ordering a new rear pulley system.

Take it out, pop it apart and check the contra spring bearing. The lip that sits against the clutch base plate should spin freely. That went south on Howardr's NCY and caused all kinds of problems. It can be popped apart, but it's full of 1.5mm ball bearings; open it over a plastic tub. I replaced the bearings with these:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/K ... QgodeSAA2w

I cleaned all the grit and trash out of the races and used TriFlow Teflon dry lubricant to keep it running smooth. Seemed to fix it, and it cost less than a replacement:

http://enviromoto.ecrater.com/p/6056079 ... pring-seat

You added a 1500rpm contra spring? I know the NCY came with a 1000rpm spring stock. When I redid Howardr's, I changed it to a 1500rpm spring to allow a better take-off and I set the sliding secondary ramps up on the steeper setting. I figured it'd help the contra spring get him into lower gear faster when off throttle. Still need to put stiffer clutch shoe springs in and maybe up the slider weights.

Thanks for the info, az. Sounds like you might have some info I've been after.
I have some yellow clutch shoe springs from a previous iteration of my CVT and I've been wondering if the NCY racing clutch already has stiff pill springs. I've been contemplating replacing the NCY springs with my 1500's but I was also thinking the NCY racing clutch would already have stiffer springs. Do you have any knowledge about that?
I might have a couple more questions once I decipher what parts I need to replace; may consider a new torque driver/secondary sheave and haven't yet looked-in to whether that would come with bearings.

[iMoses]

I'm more happy for you because of this than actually fixing your scoot. Though that in itself is awesome!

When we got home my wife (who has never watched me wrenching on anything) said "You're so talented!". I asked "Did I impress you?" She said "Yes, you did." Kissed me and made me feel great!

Nothing better than to have your S.O. tell you exactly that and to make you feel like a million bucks!!

[Tocsik]

I'm more happy for you because of this than actually fixing your scoot. Though that in itself is awesome!

When we got home my wife (who has never watched me wrenching on anything) said "You're so talented!". I asked "Did I impress you?" She said "Yes, you did." Kissed me and made me feel great!

Nothing better than to have your S.O. tell you exactly that and to make you feel like a million bucks!!

Yeah, that was kinda cool .
It's nice to still surprise someone after 21 years of marriage.

[az_slynch]

I have some yellow clutch shoe springs from a previous iteration of my CVT and I've been wondering if the NCY racing clutch already has stiff pill springs. I've been contemplating replacing the NCY springs with my 1500's but I was also thinking the NCY racing clutch would already have stiffer springs. Do you have any knowledge about that?
I might have a couple more questions once I decipher what parts I need to replace; may consider a new torque driver/secondary sheave and haven't yet looked-in to whether that would come with bearings.

I just looked into the NCY G3 kit again. Interesting, they've gone to the newer clutch with red clutch springs and the clutch brace. It was originally sold with hype about how the lightened clutch didn't need a brace. The contra spring is now yellow, but all the copy I've seen said it was a 1000rpm spring. If NCY has stuck with their color scheme, it should be a 1500rpm contra spring now. As for the clutch springs, if they're following their own color code, those should be 2000rpm springs. Seems a bit weird to me. Why would you want your contra spring to start collapsing before your clutch shoes engage? It'd get you in a taller starting gear than if the contra spring was still extended when the clutch shoes engaged. I'd think yellow or blue clutch springs would be more appropriate.

Contra Springs:



Clutch Springs:



Curious indeed. I'll have to pull that new clutch again and visually compare against the original blue ones.

EDIT: Fixed terminology. Taller gear vs lower gear.

[ericalm]

When we got home my wife (who has never watched me wrenching on anything) said "You're so talented!". I asked "Did I impress you?" She said "Yes, you did." Kissed me and made me feel great!

Lucky you. My wife is so unimpressed by my wrenching skills. She'll come in the backyard and I'll have a transmission completely torn down: "Eh, whoever." I did a carb job on her Buddy. "Yeah, nice." I come in with grease up to my elbows, proclaiming, "Look! I'm manly!" She's unfazed.

I spend 5 minutes fixing a hinge on a bathroom cabinet, she's as happy as could be.

[michelle_7728]

Good on you for figuring that out and being able to fix it so you can ride it home--and what a nice compliment to get!

I've never even had my CVP(?) cover open...that's something I've always left for the mechanics to do when I take it in for periodic maintenance.

Perhaps this summer I'll take a peek in there. I would like to know how to at least get in there and blow accummulating belt dust out (or what ever it is that I've heard causes the dust).

Dumb question, but do you have to be careful when taking the outside cover off? Meaning, is it possible something could be under pressure and "spring out"? I'm guessing the answer is "No"--how would you get it back together if that was the case--but I had to ask anyhow.

[az_slynch]

Good on you for figuring that out and being able to fix it so you can ride it home--and what a nice compliment to get!

I've never even had my CVP(?) cover open...that's something I've always left for the mechanics to do when I take it in for periodic maintenance.

Perhaps this summer I'll take a peek in there. I would like to know how to at least get in there and blow accummulating belt dust out (or what ever it is that I've heard causes the dust).

Dumb question, but do you have to be careful when taking the outside cover off? Meaning, is it possible something could be under pressure and "spring out"? I'm guessing the answer is "No"--how would you get it back together if that was the case--but I had to ask anyhow.

Michelle, there isn't anything that will spring out at you. Easy enough to remove the cover bolts and peep around inside. I don't recall the Buddy bolts specifically, but I think an 8mm socket will get you in there. If you do venture behind the CVT (continuously variable transmission) cover, roll the bike outside and at least dust out the cover and belt area with compressed air; scooter drive belts sometimes shed a little.

[michelle_7728]

Michelle, there isn't anything that will spring out at you. Easy enough to remove the cover bolts and peep around inside. I don't recall the Buddy bolts specifically, but I think an 8mm socket will get you in there. If you do venture behind the CVT (continuously variable transmission) cover, roll the bike outside and at least dust out the cover and belt area with compressed air; scooter drive belts sometimes shed a little.

Yeah, I thought I remembered reading a thread a while back indicating that the belts "shed", or create dust a while back, and that it's a good idea to get all that stuff out of there periodically.

I don't like to advertise that we have scooters any more than I have to (worried about shady characters driving by and seeing them sitting outside), so if I were to take the cover off, can I safely push it outside, blow it off, then bring it back in the garage? Or is it something where a part might fall off while rolling it, in which case perhaps I could just take the bike in the backyard to do this?

Thanks for the response, by the way!

[Tocsik]

Michelle, there isn't anything that will spring out at you. Easy enough to remove the cover bolts and peep around inside. I don't recall the Buddy bolts specifically, but I think an 8mm socket will get you in there. If you do venture behind the CVT (continuously variable transmission) cover, roll the bike outside and at least dust out the cover and belt area with compressed air; scooter drive belts sometimes shed a little.

Yeah, I thought I remembered reading a thread a while back indicating that the belts "shed", or create dust a while back, and that it's a good idea to get all that stuff out of there periodically.

I don't like to advertise that we have scooters any more than I have to (worried about shady characters driving by and seeing them sitting outside), so if I were to take the cover off, can I safely push it outside, blow it off, then bring it back in the garage? Or is it something where a part might fall off while rolling it, in which case perhaps I could just take the bike in the backyard to do this?

Thanks for the response, by the way!

No problem moving the scooter with the CVT cover off. You can even start the motor with the cover off but don't put your hand or anything else in there!
az is correct on the 8 mm bolts. And there are 8 of them; two of the bolts also secure the center stand stop plate.

[az_slynch]

I don't like to advertise that we have scooters any more than I have to (worried about shady characters driving by and seeing them sitting outside), so if I were to take the cover off, can I safely push it outside, blow it off, then bring it back in the garage? Or is it something where a part might fall off while rolling it, in which case perhaps I could just take the bike in the backyard to do this?!

It'll be fine to move your buddy with the CVT cover off.

Be sure to blow out the cover as well as the belt case. One other thing you might easily check while you're in there is the belt width. Measure it across the outer edge of the belt. I'm not sure what the service limit for a Buddy belt is, but if you discover the original width and the service limit width, you can figure out what percentage of life is left in it. Check for any cracks or fraying as well; better to find any now than on the roadside someplace.

[michelle_7728]

I don't like to advertise that we have scooters any more than I have to (worried about shady characters driving by and seeing them sitting outside), so if I were to take the cover off, can I safely push it outside, blow it off, then bring it back in the garage? Or is it something where a part might fall off while rolling it, in which case perhaps I could just take the bike in the backyard to do this?!

It'll be fine to move your buddy with the CVT cover off.

Be sure to blow out the cover as well as the belt case. One other thing you might easily check while you're in there is the belt width. Measure it across the outer edge of the belt. I'm not sure what the service limit for a Buddy belt is, but if you discover the original width and the service limit width, you can figure out what percentage of life is left in it. Check for any cracks or fraying as well; better to find any now than on the roadside someplace.

Thanks!

[Tocsik]

On the road again!

I have some new parts in my CVT and finally went for a ride just a bit ago.

New:

• NCY secondary spring seat
  NCY 1500 RPM main spring
  NCY secondary slider/sheave
  Spring collar (mine was missing!)

It's extremely smooth now but a little slower and runs at higher revs.
I'm not too thrilled with the way the clutch takes a while to engage off the line and the engine revs so high. My old set-up hit pretty hard off the line and at lower rpm's.
I'm wondering if my previous, somewhat worn, 1500 rpm spring was softer and let the clutch engage sooner so I may go to a 1000 rpm spring and see if I like that better.
I rode for while to see if letting the grease in the sheave would maybe get distributed better and things would loosen up. I bought Valvoline full synthetic grease thinking it would be a good product for the rear pulley but maybe it's too thick. I dunno.
I also don't know if parts like this have any break-in period.

[az_slynch]

It's extremely smooth now but a little slower and runs at higher revs.
I'm not too thrilled with the way the clutch takes a while to engage off the line and the engine revs so high. My old set-up hit pretty hard off the line and at lower rpm's.
I'm wondering if my previous, somewhat worn, 1500 rpm spring was softer and let the clutch engage sooner so I may go to a 1000 rpm spring and see if I like that better.
I rode for while to see if letting the grease in the sheave would maybe get distributed better and things would loosen up. I bought Valvoline full synthetic grease thinking it would be a good product for the rear pulley but maybe it's too thick. I dunno.
I also don't know if parts like this have any break-in period.

Tocsik, when Howard first rode his, he made similar comments. However, we've found that it accelerates faster overall than it did with his stock-clutch and 1500rpm spring. No wheelie action, but it blows the doors off my fuel-injected Yager in a stoplight drag. If you want wheelies, try 1500rpm pill springs. Put a few miles on it and see how it works in different situations.

If you want to "bed the clutch", warm up the motor at idle, lock the rear brake and burn on the throttle and count to ten. Close the throttle and release the break. Let it idle for a minute ans shut it down. Let it cool for fifteen minutes before riding it.

[Tocsik]

Thanks Sean.
So, Howard noticed improvement over time? Maybe some break-in time/miles are in order. "Tincture of time" as the doctors say.

I'm thinking that the 1500 rpm pill springs will take even more motor revving to initially engage the clutch, but when it does, it'll hit harder.
I definitely have an almost too smooth acceleration right now with higher engine speed than before.
I was thinking of setting the NCY secondary sliding sheave to the more stock slots instead of the angled "performance" slots, too, but that will probably only show up after initial acceleration from what I've read.

[az_slynch]

Yeah, the experience is wierd without the initial rev-n-jolt. It seems slower. However, the hole-shot acceleration is hella nice. See how it works in traffic, it'll help overcome the "wrong revs" mindset.

[Howardr]

I'll just chime in here, since my bike has been discussed. What I have found with the new set up is that I don't get the same immediate acceleration off the line as I did before. Meaning, I am not as likely to wheelie. However, what I have noticed is that the bike now has a continuous acceleration that it didn't have before. With the old clutch, it would want to wheelie and RPM's would should up high, then decrease significantly as the transmission variated to higher gears. Now, RPM's just climb steadily with now noticeable decrease with variation (is that a word?)

Also, now that I am used to it, I think the slower, but steadier acceleration is safer for me ( also my lost control a couple of times as it pulled an unexpected wheelie) and it is likely to be easier on the motor/transmission, thus improving like of the affected parts.

My $.02

Howard

[Tocsik]

Thanks Howard.
I've never had the front wheel off the ground with my 150.
Can't imagine what the 181cc and big valve head must feel like .
The crazy in me definitely misses the pop coming off a red light. Now, my scooter feels similar to a 171i that I rode at Sportique this past Summer; smooth and steady. I'll adjust and give it some time.

Oh, and it almost feels like it wants heavier sliders now. With my other set-up, I tried 13's and a mix of 12.5 and 13's but couldn't keep 'em in because I needed more oomph on hills (particularly Boulder Canyon when I'm out playing). Now I may try those 13's again and see what they do with this new CVT back end.

[Tocsik]

I just wanted to thank Sean and Howard once again for the guidance with this repair and feedback on their experiences.

I also wanted to share another great resource with the group for those interested in doing their own maintenance.
I've been doing my own service for quite a while now and even my own upgrades (nothing major or too complex) but, I had no idea that greasing the rear pulley bearings should be part of the process which is probably just a failure on my part to clearly understand the maintenance schedule. To be honest, there is only vague mention of this on page 21 of the service manual.
So, I found this great How-To: Grease/Service the Torque Driver (Rear Pulley) on Zumaforums.net.
The OP and other contributors even give great feedback/results using different grease products.