Is this bad?

[magnato1]

I've been noticing that when I brake hard recently that it seems like the front wheel bounces around a lot and something rattles, I assumed it was the front fender. Then I noticed tonight that it seems like there is A LOT of head tube showing. So I took some pictures. Since I'm still new to the bike, I don't know if this is how much ought to be showing, of if something is amiss. Mostly, I want to make sure that the thing isn't going to come apart while I am riding it and I go down. All input/comparisons with your own machines is appreciated. Thanks.

[alloo66]

Is they're a screw on the non picture d side of the fender?

[Robbie]

Looks normal to me......if the head bearings were loose there would be shuddering through the handlebar over every small bump.....often a thudding noise goes with the vibration.

You may have some buildup of brake dust or possibly a grease spot on the rotor.....that'll make for a fair amount of vibration with brake application.
Saturate a clean rag with brake cleaner and wipe the inner and outer faces of the rotor while turning the wheel.....do this several times and keep presenting a clean area of the rag.
With each wipe, the rag will have less debris accumulated......do this till the rag stays clean after wiping.
Be aware that front brake performance will be less than you are accumstumed to for the first few brake applications but will become stronger with each use.....maybe ten stops or so.

I have found the front brake feels rough if I have more than 25 psi in the front tire.......also makes it feel too light, like a head bearing is loose.....but pre load checked out.

Spin the front wheel while on the stand and be certain the tread is running true with no variation.....a front out of round tire will show itself on brake application due to weight transfer.

If everything checks out after rotor cleaning, empty the glove box and start looking for the loose.....something.
I had a weird knock over bumps that I chased for a day or two.....found one of the horn mounting screws had bailed under the horncast and the horn was pivoting and bouncing off the remaining screw.
You can feel the horn by reaching under the edge of the horncast......it is rubber mounted so it can wiggle......with one screw it can rise and fall and hit everything back there....a weird knock and vibration indeed.

Good luck,
Rob

[magnato1]

Thanks for the tips Robbie. I'll take a look at everything. It doesn't seem like the headset moves at all, it does feel kind of weird going over bumps sometimes, but I have only had the scoot about 6 weeks, so maybe that's just how the Stella rides. It's definitely a lot harsher than my Cali Classic. I'll take a the tire pressure and brake dust.

[desmolicious]

I've been noticing that when I brake hard recently that it seems like the front wheel bounces around a lot and something rattles, I assumed it was the front fender.

Mine did that too. It is a dealer prep issue. Your headset is not torqued down correctly. Once the shop re-torqued mine the problem went away.

[Crew]

I had a similar problem. Loose bearings in the column. My scooter would pull hard to the left when braking as well as jerk the bars forward as I stopped hard. Once they were tightened at the first service everything was normal again.

[magnato1]

Crew & desmolicious,

Glad to know I am not crazy and that it's easily fixed. Probably have the first service done this weekend, so I'll make sure they take care of it.

[magnato1]

Update:

So, I had the first service done and they said everything is great. I ride it not far and the front end still shakes when I am breaking. I thought about taking it back, but unfortunately it has become apparent that this shop knows very little about the Stella. When I brake hard, the front end shakes, it almost seems as if the front wheel is bouncing up and down. Does anybody have any other ideas as to what this could be? I was thinking the front shock could faulty from the factory and its a warranty fix, but I need someone that knows the bikes to diagnose it for me. I was thinking about taking it to a vespa shop. did PXs come with front disc brakes? Would a vespa guy know how it should feel? I'd sure love some feedback. Thanks

[Robbie]

Since you are trying to get a solid diagnosis I see no reason not to ask a Vespa, or any other repair shop, to take it for a spin.

Admittedly, they cannot perform a warranty service but if they see/feel a problem they may be able to show you how to demonstrate it to the selling dealer.

If you have a group of riders you've been hanging out with you should consider having one of the more mechanical individuals road test it for opinions as well.

Gonna be something dumb like the mentioned head bearings (but those usually bang over bumps as well) or a bent or warped rotor or as I said earlier, something like oil on the pads or rotor.

Best of luck,
Rob

[magnato1]

Robbie,

It's funny you said take it to Vespa, I had the same thought. So, I took it to the local Vespa shop and apparently they only work on new Vespas. That's embarrassing. So, I guess I'll do it myself. I did look at the brakes before because I thought it seemed weird, but the rotor looks good and straight. I guess I could take the pads out, but can I clean them, or would I just have to replace them? Also, if something is on the pads, shouldn't it have worn off by now? Just curious, not questioning your logic. Finally, how do I get to the bearings in the headset and how would I tighten them up, or how would I tighten the headset itself I guess? Do I take the fender and the horncast off? Any and all help appreciated. Thanks.

[Robbie]

Earlier I mentioned a rotor wipedown using brakeclean on a clean towel.
Still applies.

If the head bearings have excessive play you should be feeling a rather sharp jolt coming through the bars the moment you apply the front brake.
This is the moment the steering shaft moves forward, independent of the chassis, taking advantage of any free play at the bearings.

Your description 'bouncing on front brake application' leads me to believe you are feeling something that cycles with each wheel rotation......
This is why I was mentioning rotor cleaning, as though there was/is debris of some sort on the rotor and every time it went between the applied brake pads it was causing a mild 'grab' or, as you describe, bounce.

In the event there was some foreign material on the pads themselves you would experience either excessive squeal or imprecise brake application....meaning a tendency to either lockup or, the opposite, poor brake response.

Before messing with the bearings, I think the focus should be directed to the brake rotor itself......or possibly the tire.

So, here's the hard part, you need to find a shop that will check the rotor for runout or warpage while assembled on the machine.

This is done using a dial indicator configured so its plunger rides against the rotor........the wheel is turned slowly by hand while watching the indicator needle.
Any variation exceeding .002/.003 will create the bouncing feeling you describe.....this because the variation, as it passes between the applied brake pads, changes the applied pressure.
This is the same thing as operating a automobile with 'warped' rotors......you can feel the shudder through the chassis and steering wheel.

If the rotor is out of spec. it could have been caused by the rotor being dropped or mishandled prior to installation.
The rotor could have been struck by something during shipment/uncrating/ or while sitting in the showroom.

The rotor could also be deformed because the mounting points on the hub are not true and lastly, the wheel hub itself could be deformed (not the wheel, the hub the brake rotor and wheel are bolted to).

But, before I go through all that, I would recommend installing the spare tire, set the pressure to spec. and road test it.
I have had new tires with a belt construction problem only show itself while loaded........keep in mind the front tire is not really experiencing much load until the front brake is applied.
At that point the weight of the machine and rider are, as well as deceleration forces, now on the front tire and a construction error (slipped belt) will show itself.

By doing this, you have narrowed your focus to a brake problem or head bearing.....Darn shame you're on the other side of the country......we could narrow this down in less than a hour......wish you could find a good gearhead out your way.....he'd follow the path I described.

Since I don't know your capabilities and tool selection I'm going to suggest you avoid getting involved with a head bearing adjustment......lotsa wires and cables need to be moved/repositioned/removed and, without knowing what areas to protect a strong possibility of damaging the finish is present.

Keep in touch,

Rob

P.S.
Apology for momentary brain fade.....check the bolts holding the rotor to the hub.....this is something done as a first step, prior to diagnosis.....one of those things that is second nature, so I forgot to mention it.

[Dooglas]

It's funny you said take it to Vespa, I had the same thought. So, I took it to the local Vespa shop and apparently they only work on new Vespas.

Hey, you live in SoCal, the scooter capitol of the US . There must be shops in the area that work on classic Vespas. A Stella is very similar to a PX150 after all (except for the 4T engine in the new model).

[magnato1]

Rob,

Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response. I will check all of these things when I get the chance. Unfortunately it is supposed to rain today and I don't have a garage, so it will probably be tomorrow. I'll check back in afterwards with the results. Thanks again.

[graywolf]

Update:

So, I had the first service done and they said everything is great. I ride it not far and the front end still shakes when I am breaking. I thought about taking it back, but unfortunately it has become apparent that this shop knows very little about the Stella. When I brake hard, the front end shakes, it almost seems as if the front wheel is bouncing up and down. Does anybody have any other ideas as to what this could be? I was thinking the front shock could faulty from the factory and its a warranty fix, but I need someone that knows the bikes to diagnose it for me. I was thinking about taking it to a vespa shop. did PXs come with front disc brakes? Would a vespa guy know how it should feel? I'd sure love some feedback. Thanks

Actually, take it back. Thing that are not always obvious at first, sometimes are after you have eliminate the most common. Things like adjustments that will not stay in place, but vibrate loose again in just a few blocks. When you take the vehicle to someone else, he is starting all over, and has no idea that that was just adjusted, so is not looking to see why it did not stay in adjustment like the original mechanic would be. Those kind of things are pretty common, I remember from my days as a mechanic.

My rule on things like that is "Three strikes and he is out".

In other words, I would not start looking for another mechanic until he had not fixed it in 3 tries. However, if you just described the problem as a shutter on braking, you should not have to pay again for the same problem. However if you told him to adjust the fork bearings and that did not fix the problem, it is your problem not his. In that case you should expect to pay again. Even though I have a lifetime more experience that the kid mechanic, I always just describe the problem, so they can not charge me more if they do not fix it the first try.

[magnato1]

Graywolf,

Thanks for the info regarding the mechanic. I see what you mean, and generally I would be more tolerant of the mechanic, but when I took it in for the 1st service, the guy told me it was the first time he had ever done the service on a Stella. That said, I just don't think he knows anything about the bikes.

Robbie,

I inspected the rotor, checked the bolts, and spun the wheel while it was on the center stand. The rotor definitely rubs at a specific spot and I think you're right about it being warped. I put the spare on the front though to make sure that it had nothing to do with the rim or the tire.

So, since it appears that it is most likely the rotor, I am going to take it back to the same shop, because they are the local Genuine dealer and this seems like a warranty thing. I've had the bike a little over 2 months, don't even have 500 miles on it yet and it has never been down, so if the rotor is warped, it's defective or it was damaged in shipping or during setup, as Robbie said. So, we'll see how getting it warrantied goes. Hopefully it will ride like a dream once it is fixed.

Wish me luck.

[Robbie]

magnato1,

I believe you're on the right track.
Because the Stella uses a solid mounted, non-floating caliper it will not tolerate but a few thousnths of runnout.
If you can feel a momentary drag while turning the wheel, it will drag much harder at that point with brakes applied.

I have to wonder about the riding abilities of the individual that performed the road test.......I used to teach the M.S.C. in Illinois and you would be shocked at the percentage of riders that are afraid to even apply the front brake.
At best, they would lightly apply it.......I contend they must have flipped their schwinn during their formative years.

Maybe the individual that performed the road test is one of those.

Regardless, it is, as you know, unsafe to operate the machine with non-linear brake response.

I look forward to reading your results.

Rob

[magnato1]

So I dropped my Stella off at the local Genuine dealer last Saturday to have them address this issue. They've 'gone through it' and they can't find anything wrong. They say the front brake rotor is not bent and they say this is just how Stellas are because of the single sided suspension. I can't believe that Vespas have been on the road this long if this is how front braking feels. So, I don't really know what to do next, except order a rotor and install it myself to see if that fixes it. Any suggestions?

[magnato1]

Also, does anyone else experience a 'pogo stick effect' with the front end when braking. The mechanic described the issue this way, so he definitely felt what I was feeling, he just didn't know how to fix it. Is this a standard Stella thing? If not, could it also be a suspension issue? They claim to have checked the front suspension, but I am wondering what they really did. They only charged me for one hour of labor, could have they taken the from wheel and hub off to get to that disc and check it as well as 'go through' the front end in one hour?

[Robbie]

The front suspension on my 09 does not pogo or show any strange operation annnnnd, the brakes feel as linear as my other five disc brake bikes.

Good Lord, I can't believe you are having so much trouble getting this resolved.

An idea......is there any chance you can road test a different machine (Stella).......first, to satisfy yourself that your concern has merit (helps you re-assure yourself you're not crazy) and if so (merit, not crazy), then you could tell the dealer to make it work 'Like that one!'

I am frustrated for you and I'm two thousand miles away....geez!

Rob

[magnato1]

Rob,

Yeah, I am really annoyed, really, really annoyed. It just can't be right. I thought about asking to ride one of the floor models, but I told them when I dropped the bike off that they need to ride one of the floor models to compare and they said that they did and that they all do the same thing. I didn't want to be too insulting by asking to ride one of them, thereby essentially calling them liars. I wish more people would weigh in here regarding whether they have experienced this 'pogo stick action'; not that I don't value your opinion, but it would be interesting to see if someone, somewhere has also had this problem. I was thinking that maybe I should just change the brake rotor and when it's fixed; A) go back and ask for my money back as well as reimbursement for the parts; and B) tell Genuine that they obviously lied to me, otherwise they would have found that rotor to be bent and corrected the issue. I don't really want to alienate the local dealer, but I also don't want them to think they can screw me over.

I guess I should really go in and ask to ride another one, but even if the floor models ride differently, they obviously don't have the know how to fix the issue. I think maybe I'll pose the question to Genuine. I'd rather fix it myself, and do it right, and learn more about how my bike works and is put together, than take it back. Maybe Genuine can get behind that, haha...thoughts?

[Lokky]

I have owned two Stellas and never had a pogo stick feeling to it, they both brake exactly the same as any other disk brake bike I have owned.

I would contact genuine over a negligent dealer.

[magnato1]

I have owned two Stellas and never had a pogo stick feeling to it, they both brake exactly the same as any other disk brake bike I have owned.

I would contact genuine over a negligent dealer.

Lokky,

Thanks for weighing in, I really appreciate the feedback. It's ludicrous that the dealer can honestly think that people have been riding Vespas for 40-50 years with this design and that it has been this terrible the whole time. I can't decide whether the people at the dealer are dumb or if they think that I am dumb.

[skully93]

I understand the frustration. On the dealer's part, though you may not be a mechanic, you have the right to say "something is amiss!"

Having the benefit of a few good shop mechanics and good friends that at least know their way around most scoots, I've been lucky. but if I paid a lot at a shop for a new bike and it rode like that, I would definitely be assertive about it. Sure, you COULD be ignorant, maybe that's just how the bike is...but I don't think so.

if I remember right the Stella has a 1 year warranty, so you want that totally fixed before that's up. Plus, shuddering in the front? Hit any kind of treacherous surface during braking, and that sounds dangerous.

Good luck. Be polite but firm!

[magnato1]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Skully. I wrote an email to Genuine yesterday and I am waiting to hear back. I am fed up with the situation and shouldn't have to feel like the dealer isn't taking care of me. I am hoping that Genuine will point me in the right direction. I'll keep y'all posted.

[desmolicious]

Update:

So, I had the first service done and they said everything is great. I ride it not far and the front end still shakes when I am breaking. I thought about taking it back, but unfortunately it has become apparent that this shop knows very little about the Stella. When I brake hard, the front end shakes, it almost seems as if the front wheel is bouncing up and down. Does anybody have any other ideas as to what this could be? I was thinking the front shock could faulty from the factory and its a warranty fix, but I need someone that knows the bikes to diagnose it for me. I was thinking about taking it to a vespa shop. did PXs come with front disc brakes? Would a vespa guy know how it should feel? I'd sure love some feedback. Thanks

Just catching up with this thread.
Your shop is clueless and obviously everything is not great.
They did NOT torque your steering bearing correctly, most probably they did not do it at all/don't know how/couldn't be bothered.

I had the exact same response from my dealer when I first took it in for that. They said everything checked out great. So I insisted they re-torque the bearings, and amazingly (sarcasm on) it was fixed.

Not only is your dealer incompetent, but they should not have charged you anything for labour. This is why you have a warranty.

If you can, I'd recommend calling/visiting Bar Italia Classics or North Hollywood scooters in the LA area.

[BuddyRaton]

So I dropped my Stella off at the local Genuine dealer last Saturday to have them address this issue. They've 'gone through it' and they can't find anything wrong. They say the front brake rotor is not bent and they say this is just how Stellas are because of the single sided suspension. I can't believe that Vespas have been on the road this long if this is how front braking feels.

Yeah it's how a 1964 Alstate will ride...but not a Stella

[ericalm]

If you can, I'd recommend calling/visiting Bar Italia Classics or North Hollywood scooters in the LA area.

NoHo is no longer open for sales, but they're doing service until the mechs open a new service-only location. You can call them here: 818-861-4640.

[Wild Handyman]

Also, does anyone else experience a 'pogo stick effect' with the front end when braking?

I own a 2012 Stella 4T and it stops exactly the same as every other motorcycle I have ever ridden. No shuddering, pogo-ing, or any other ing; slam the front and rear brakes on and it stops. Unfortunately, I think you need to find a different mechanic and quick, before you hurt yourself; no one wants that to happen.

[magnato1]

Ok,

I've been meaning to update this for awhile, but I've been too busy traveling and riding,

I ended up taking the bike to Thousand Oaks Motorsports. These guys are top notch and I would recommend them to anyone in the area. I believe the guy who is the expert on the Genuine bikes is Alex, he has an English accent, but they're all good guys in the service department from what I can tell.

They found that, as Robbie had suggested, the front brake rotor was indeed warped, even though my local shop, now called Epic Motorsports, formerly Santa Barbara Kawasaki, said they couldn't find anything wrong. They also found that the headset bearings were loose. Brake was covered by warranty and they tightened up those bearings for me for free as well. I had told them the whole story of how I was being run around by the other shop, and they were genuinely concerned. It felt good to be treated right.

After seeing that Epic had done an Epic job of doing nothing right, I had TO Motorsports do the first service again, and guess what, the valves weren't adjusted properly. So, after months of not fun riding, I picked my scoot up on a cold day in February and rode it 76 miles back to Santa Barbara. It was cold, haha, but everything worked right, and now the Stella loves life, and is getting more and more powerful by the day. Not to mention the Heidenau K-47s that I am loving (I put them on just before the bike went to TO). So, thankfully, everything worked out.

Thanks to everyone here for your input and your concern. I hope my experience helps some people find a good shop in TO, and helps with anyone who may be having similar problems.

Jeff

[skully93]

good timing! proper scoot season is almost here.

Glad it has a happy ending.

[stASH]

I hope my experience helps some people find a good shop in TO

Almost more importantly, I hope your experience helps people avoid a shop like

Epic Motorsports, formerly Santa Barbara Kawasaki

Since bad mechanical work, especially related to brakes, on a scooter or motorcycle could literally kill someone.