another 2T trans oil question/observation

[longroof]

OK OK here we go. Where in my Stella owners manual does it say non-detergent 30W oil for the tranny? All it says is SAE 30. SAE 30 can be either detergent or non-detergent. Noticed several Vespa/Stella owners even use multi-weight like 10W-30, 15W-40 or 20W-50. All multi-weight oil is detergent. No one that I can find has ever experienced any type of failure using single weight, multi-weight; detergent or non. Some even use 75W-90 hypoid differential gear oil.

Am I missing anything? Peanut oil or even olive oil would probably work (lol).

Besides a friend of a friend has anyone suffered an oil related transmission/clutch failure.

Any thoughts on the detergent/non-detergent issue?

Thanks

[fisher1]

SAE 30 can be either detergent or non-detergent.

Can you provide a link to an ad for SAE 30 weight oil that specifically says it is detergent? What manufacturer makes it? Thanks !

[Lokky]

the way I understand it is that detergent oils are to be used in systems with an oil filter... the detergent keeps dirt particulates in suspension to be then caught by the filter.

If you do not have an oil filter you need non-detergent oil so that the crud will settle at the bottom instead of keeping in suspension, this way you will get rid of it when performing an oil change.

[fisher1]

the way I understand it is that detergent oils are to be used in systems with an oil filter... the detergent keeps dirt particulates in suspension to be then caught by the filter.

If you do not have an oil filter you need non-detergent oil so that the crud will settle at the bottom instead of keeping in suspension, this way you will get rid of it when performing an oil change.

My understanding as well. Which is why the old Brit bikes I've been riding for 45 years all use straight weight non-detergent engine oil. I've not yet seen a straight weight oil that is detergent, but maybe they make that now - I don't know.

In any case, there are different SAE specs regarding which bearing metals and seals different oils are best suited for. I've not seen where LML lists a multi-weight SAE engine oil to be used in the Stella's gearbox.

[Lokky]

I've not seen where LML lists a multi-weight SAE engine oil to be used in the Stella's gearbox.

it doesn't, in fact the glovebox door has a sticker on the inside that calls for SAE30

[longroof]

Fisher 1 Penzoil 30W is detergent.

Lokky...read an owners manual for a briggs and stratton engine. no filter and says use a quality detergent oil.

[kmrcstintn]

I dug deeper and did some research about a 'proper' multi-viscosity gear lube/transmission oil to use in my Stella 2T; first, since the Stella and Vespa P-series are kindred spirits, I went after the recommended spec put out by Piaggio/Vespa:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/wiki-gear- ... fty-vespas

and then I went on the hunt to find a source for it and found some of this stuff available locally at a dealership:

http://www.thenismoshop.com/Nissan-OEM- ... p_310.html

basically, the 'optimal' lube is a 75w-85 gear/transmission oil with GL-4 rating to be yellow metal friendly to the brass bushings...

to address the other question raised on detergent vs non-detergent SAE 30wt oil...if the oil is 'non-detergent' look for 'ND' somewhere on the label & if the oil is 'detergent' look for 'HD' somewhere on the label; also, I've seen non-detergent oils sold locally (Accel SAE 30ND at Walmart with an SAE service rating of SA) and (Shell SAE 30ND at Advanced Auto Parts with an SAE service rating of SB) which should fit the bill if you want to stick with straight weight 30 without detergents...

[Robbie]

I dug deeper and did some research about a 'proper' multi-viscosity gear lube/transmission oil to use in my Stella 2T; first, since the Stella and Vespa P-series are kindred spirits, I went after the recommended spec put out by Piaggio/Vespa:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/wiki-gear- ... fty-vespas

and then I went on the hunt to find a source for it and found some of this stuff available locally at a dealership:

http://www.thenismoshop.com/Nissan-OEM- ... p_310.html

basically, the 'optimal' lube is a 75w-85 gear/transmission oil with GL-4 rating to be yellow metal friendly to the brass bushings...

to address the other question raised on detergent vs non-detergent SAE 30wt oil...if the oil is 'non-detergent' look for 'ND' somewhere on the label & if the oil is 'detergent' look for 'HD' somewhere on the label; also, I've seen non-detergent oils sold locally (Accel SAE 30ND at Walmart with an SAE service rating of SA) and (Shell SAE 30ND at Advanced Auto Parts with an SAE service rating of SB) which should fit the bill if you want to stick with straight weight 30 without detergents...

Well, here's the rub........the clutch......none of these lubricants addresses the need for clutch disc compatibility.
So, the oil must cool and lubricate the gears, lubricate shaft bearings, yet allow a set of friction discs to clamp without slippage.

So, I have tried 80w (about a S.A.E. 30) Gear Saver (Bel-Ray)....designed for gearbox and clutch compatibility.....Seemed just fine.

I have tried Golden Spectro S.A.E. 20W40, a true motorcycle oil designed for unitized motorcycle engines sharing oil with the engine/clutch/gearbox.
This worked well too, actually made it shift a bit smoother but, being a semi-synthetic, was able to work its way past the kick starter seal.....just wisping, not leaking.

I have tried Honda GN4, S.A.E. 20W40, a true mineral based motorcycle oil also for unitized motorcycle engines......operation seemed about the same as the Bel-Ray.

Now at over 5000 miles, I'm staying with the Golden......the occasional wiping of the trace oil wisp at the kickstart shaft is no big deal.....it just shifts so well with it.

You may find my results useful.

Rob

[BuddyRaton]

Fisher 1 Penzoil 30W is detergent.

Lokky...read an owners manual for a briggs and stratton engine. no filter and says use a quality detergent oil.

Yeah...and Boeing uses Jet A fuel...
Why would anyone possibly read a BS manual (pun intended) to see what to use in a stella

[kmrcstintn]

I dug deeper and did some research about a 'proper' multi-viscosity gear lube/transmission oil to use in my Stella 2T; first, since the Stella and Vespa P-series are kindred spirits, I went after the recommended spec put out by Piaggio/Vespa:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/wiki-gear- ... fty-vespas

and then I went on the hunt to find a source for it and found some of this stuff available locally at a dealership:

http://www.thenismoshop.com/Nissan-OEM- ... p_310.html

basically, the 'optimal' lube is a 75w-85 gear/transmission oil with GL-4 rating to be yellow metal friendly to the brass bushings...

to address the other question raised on detergent vs non-detergent SAE 30wt oil...if the oil is 'non-detergent' look for 'ND' somewhere on the label & if the oil is 'detergent' look for 'HD' somewhere on the label; also, I've seen non-detergent oils sold locally (Accel SAE 30ND at Walmart with an SAE service rating of SA) and (Shell SAE 30ND at Advanced Auto Parts with an SAE service rating of SB) which should fit the bill if you want to stick with straight weight 30 without detergents...

Well, here's the rub........the clutch......none of these lubricants addresses the need for clutch disc compatibility.
So, the oil must cool and lubricate the gears, lubricate shaft bearings, yet allow a set of friction discs to clamp without slippage.

So, I have tried 80w (about a S.A.E. 30) Gear Saver (Bel-Ray)....designed for gearbox and clutch compatibility.....Seemed just fine.

I have tried Golden Spectro S.A.E. 20W40, a true motorcycle oil designed for unitized motorcycle engines sharing oil with the engine/clutch/gearbox.
This worked well too, actually made it shift a bit smoother but, being a semi-synthetic, was able to work its way past the kick starter seal.....just wisping, not leaking.

I have tried Honda GN4, S.A.E. 20W40, a true mineral based motorcycle oil also for unitized motorcycle engines......operation seemed about the same as the Bel-Ray.

Now at over 5000 miles, I'm staying with the Golden......the occasional wiping of the trace oil wisp at the kickstart shaft is no big deal.....it just shifts so well with it.

You may find my results useful.

Rob

good point about the clutch... LML built Vespa-P-series scooters under license from Piaggio and I think Piaggio would take the clutch plates into account when they updated the recommended spec from 30wt non-detergent oil to 75w-85 GL-4 gear/transmission oil; the Stellas (rebadged LML Stars) and the Vespa P-series are nearly identical (engine, transmission, gas & oil system, etc); the Vespa spec should cover the Stella also, just that the owner's manual is archaic and outdated...

[Robbie]

I dug deeper and did some research about a 'proper' multi-viscosity gear lube/transmission oil to use in my Stella 2T; first, since the Stella and Vespa P-series are kindred spirits, I went after the recommended spec put out by Piaggio/Vespa:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/wiki-gear- ... fty-vespas

and then I went on the hunt to find a source for it and found some of this stuff available locally at a dealership:

http://www.thenismoshop.com/Nissan-OEM- ... p_310.html

basically, the 'optimal' lube is a 75w-85 gear/transmission oil with GL-4 rating to be yellow metal friendly to the brass bushings...

to address the other question raised on detergent vs non-detergent SAE 30wt oil...if the oil is 'non-detergent' look for 'ND' somewhere on the label & if the oil is 'detergent' look for 'HD' somewhere on the label; also, I've seen non-detergent oils sold locally (Accel SAE 30ND at Walmart with an SAE service rating of SA) and (Shell SAE 30ND at Advanced Auto Parts with an SAE service rating of SB) which should fit the bill if you want to stick with straight weight 30 without detergents...

Well, here's the rub........the clutch......none of these lubricants addresses the need for clutch disc compatibility.
So, the oil must cool and lubricate the gears, lubricate shaft bearings, yet allow a set of friction discs to clamp without slippage.

So, I have tried 80w (about a S.A.E. 30) Gear Saver (Bel-Ray)....designed for gearbox and clutch compatibility.....Seemed just fine.

I have tried Golden Spectro S.A.E. 20W40, a true motorcycle oil designed for unitized motorcycle engines sharing oil with the engine/clutch/gearbox.
This worked well too, actually made it shift a bit smoother but, being a semi-synthetic, was able to work its way past the kick starter seal.....just wisping, not leaking.

I have tried Honda GN4, S.A.E. 20W40, a true mineral based motorcycle oil also for unitized motorcycle engines......operation seemed about the same as the Bel-Ray.

Now at over 5000 miles, I'm staying with the Golden......the occasional wiping of the trace oil wisp at the kickstart shaft is no big deal.....it just shifts so well with it.

You may find my results useful.

Rob

good point about the clutch... LML built Vespa-P-series scooters under license from Piaggio and I think Piaggio would take the clutch plates into account when they updated the recommended spec from 30wt non-detergent oil to 75w-85 GL-4 gear/transmission oil; the Stellas (rebadged LML Stars) and the Vespa P-series are nearly identical (engine, transmission, gas & oil system, etc); the Vespa spec should cover the Stella also, just that the owner's manual is archaic and outdated...

That outdated spec. is my motivator to dig deeper......even the old 30w non-detergent, if you can find it, has had its properties changed due to E.P.A. considerations......specifically the zinc (shortened word) content which acted as a high pressure point protection coating.....this would be appropriate for the gear to gear meeting points, has been virtually eliminated.
It now is only found in gear specific and motorcycle oil for unitized engine designs.
In the car biz (I build engines) we found that that using the new E.P.A. low zinc oils will cause cam lobe/lifter failures on flat tappet (non-roller) designs.
We now add a zinc. package in conjunction with a oil change to combat this.

Of course, considering the low power loading these gearboxes endure, my concerns may not have merit......we're only talking tenish horsepower here.

Rob

[BuddyRaton]

Tennish HP on a good day! Remember that we are dealing with a technology that is older that almost all riders. The clutch plates on a 79P and a 2005 PX are the same...cork.

For all stock motors I use 30W ND...find it at the dollar store etc...it works just fine with the stock clutch. People have worried about detergent foaming after it comes off the slinger. I don't buy that as most have anti foaming agents, but I use ND anyway. The stuff is like $2.50 per quart. What people forget to do more than anything is soak the corks overnight before installing when rebuilding.

I've also gone ghetto to get stuck plates loose on a P200 that had been sitting for a few years. Drained the lube...filled with Marvel Mystery oil..got going in first...kept the clutch pulled in got it hot and just kept hammering on it...the plates let go...worked the clutch...drained the MMO and flushed with 30W ND twice. That clutch was my backup when a New cosa newfield asploded after 1,000miles on CBR 2012.

For modified motors (15-27 hp) I use SAE 75W/85 gear oil with API GL4. But I'm not running a stock clutch either... MMW basket, fiber plates, stiffer springs scuff up the steel plates for friction...etc etc you know...all the tricks.


In my opinion any oil that leaks past any seal should be avoided...or it's time to change the seals. Is it leaking past the clutch side seal? Well you might not know until you have an air leak or smell gas in your gear lube.

On my scooters the gear oild gets changed way more than "recommended". Anytime I put one on the lift for whatever I change the gear oil...it's cheap to do and take about 5 mins...why not.

Remember...don't over think the easy stuff!

[kmrcstintn]

I guess my ULTIMATE question is...are the Stella OEM clutches packed with cork just like the Vespa P-series clutches? and if so, is the Piaggio updated spec of a 75w-85 GL-4 oil safe to use in the Stella? I feel LML/Genuine stuck with the 30wt ND spec since it is easy to use and very 'safe' since it doesn't contain additives that can cause problems; at the same time I feel Piaggio upgraded to the 75w-85 GL-4 spec when such fluids offered better protection to the gears while still being 'safe' with additives that don't cause problems...

what have I used? after dumping the factory fill @ 300 miles...Amsoil synthetic 10w-40 motorcycle oil (dual spec as an 80w-90 GL-1 gear lube), Suzuki synthetic blend 10w-40 motorcycle oil, Amsoil synthetic 80w-90 gear lube, and currently the Nissan Manual Trans Fluid that carries an 75w-85 GL-4 spec; each one only got a few hundred miles because I'm always looking for the 'optimal' thing to use; the only one that gave me some 'sticky' shifting is the Amsoil 80w-90 gear lube until the transmission warms up

I just turned over 1700 miles and no matter what I put in I still get non-ferrous and ferrous metal floating in the brew that gets drained; I'm not sure what to make of it since these gear boxes are 'primitive' and I suspect the finish work from LML might be lacking; if I keep the scooter for any length of time I'm gonna get a magnetic drain plug to catch any steel/iron that wears off; if I don't 'like' the Nissan stuff I will most likely try Spectro 80wt Motorcycle Transmission Oil; I have some Wolf's Head 30wt Non-Detergent oil on hand 'just in case'

[JohnKiniston]

Here's a curve ball for you

What about 20w50 called for on the dip stick of the 4T Stella? Or the 10w40 called for in the 4T Stella owners manual?

I have the Same clutch as the 2T bikes.

[BuddyRaton]

The cruciform is a sacrificial part. It takes the blunt force of shifting and is designed to wear down so the gears don't. It it the best thing for a motor? No...but that's what we're dealing with. In reality they are tough little go getters! I've had cush springs fall out and go through the gears...not the best thing for it but you just say

"Wow that was a strange noise...wonder what it was" and keep riding! Later on split the cases and find out.

Also remember that these scooters really weren't made for the US market. They were primarilary made for markets where people use them every day but can't afford $16 for a quart of oil.

[BuddyRaton]

Here's a curve ball for you

What about 20w50 called for on the dip stick of the 4T Stella? Or the 10w40 called for in the 4T Stella owners manual?

I have the Same clutch as the 2T bikes.

Isn't the clutch part of the tranny and not connected to the crankcase? 20w 50 would be for the crank case if there is a dip stick. I'm not real familiar with the 4Ts

[JohnKiniston]

Nope, Single oil supply on the 4T bikes. They put a dipstick on the back of the case down near the gear selector box.

The oil filter is up in the clutch cover.

[J33pman]

Also remember that these scooters really weren't made for the US market. They were primarilary made for markets where people use them every day but can't afford $16 for a quart of oil.

Well said! We are kind of spoiled having a conversation like this.

[kmrcstintn]

a curve ball...so that's what hit me in the head

I've had a few recommendations to use Shell Rotella-T 15w-40 heavy duty engine oil; it has JASO-MA 'rating' (not certification) on the back of the bottle; seems a lot of folks use it in their bikes, including those with common sumps that use the same oil for the engine, tranny, and primary drive; BTW: JASO-MA is a rating for wet clutch applications and these finicky Stellas have wet clutch systems;

the Rotella stuff might be the closest (as in NOT EXPENSIVE) stuff to the 20w-40 that the Stella Shop Manual recommends; might just stop 'experimenting' and grab a few quarts and use it!

as far as the 20w-50 or 10w-40 that the 4T Stellas call for, I would highly recommend making sure you go with a MOTORCYCLE OIL that has the JASO-MA or JASO MA2 rating on the bottle that covers 'wet clutch applications'; on my bigger machine (2009 Yamaha V Star 650 Classic) which uses a common sump system I am using Suzuki 'Boulevard V Twin' synthetic blend 10w-40 4-stroke motorcycle oil and my shifting is slick as butter...I might just go back to using that, but the 'oil experts' at Bob is the Oil Guy forum site state that virgin oil analysis and used oil analysis shows the Rotella-T 15w-40 resists shearing to a 30wt oil longer than many motorcycle oils...another curve ball

[JohnKiniston]

On my scooters the gear oild gets changed way more than "recommended". Anytime I put one on the lift for whatever I change the gear oil...it's cheap to do and take about 5 mins...why not.

Remember...don't over think the easy stuff!

With the 4T bikes it's such a quick and easy job to change the oil and check the screen (Now the filter's another matter, You have to pull the wheel off the bike) to see what's caught (in the screen) is tempting me to just do a monthly oil change on the bike at a whopping cost of $5 I think last I checked autozone's Oil section.

I commute on my 4T, I go on Monthly scooter club rides that are usually a decent length, And I do stupid things with it like ride the 100+ miles to phoenix to hang out with friends. So the miles are getting put on the bike hard and fast.

[BuddyRaton]

I commute on my 4T, I go on Monthly scooter club rides that are usually a decent length, And I do stupid things with it like ride the 100+ miles to phoenix to hang out with friends. So the miles are getting put on the bike hard and fast.

Sounds like a smart thing to do with a scooter to me!

[JohnKiniston]

I commute on my 4T, I go on Monthly scooter club rides that are usually a decent length, And I do stupid things with it like ride the 100+ miles to phoenix to hang out with friends. So the miles are getting put on the bike hard and fast.

Sounds like a smart thing to do with a scooter to me!

Oh I agree.
I have co-workers who only ride their motorcycles on days they deem to be 'right' for it, Not too hot, Not too cold, Not too windy, Etc. Meanwhile my friends and I are having Stupid amounts of fun on our scooters seeing the back-roads, tasting the food and seeing what trouble we can get into.

[longroof]

been reading all ya'lls comments and it seems any liquid lube will work in these transmissions, I read bob is the oil guy too and switched from 15W-50 Mobil to Stell 15W-40 because of the great reviews and the MA rating (plus the cost of Mobil). Have 57,000 miles on the V-star 650 and 48,000 on the TW200 using Mobil.Changed to Shell last fall. will see what happens in the summer heat. When I tour on the V-star I pull a trailer so the engine gets a good work-out.

Good point about the manual not being updated as oil technology advances...3rd world conditions and availibilty of brand oil.