which to buy? 2T vs 4T Stella

keaton85 · Post by **keaton85** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:26 pm

I know this has been talked about a few times here, and sorry that I have to start it over again.

I'm looking at getting a stella at some point but can't decide on a 2T or 4T. I am very mechanically inclined and have had many 2stroke mopeds and a 4stroke CT90. No issues with complete rebuilds.

My concerns are this:
Are the 2Ts pretty solid in terms of leaky seals, crank bearings, and injection systems?
How are the 4Ts with timing and top end rebuilds?

I'm looking at mechanical issues here, along with performance items that could be added later. Will the 2T have more wiggle room to get some extra CCs over the 4T?

This scooter would at times have a side car, dog and wife...

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:44 am

2T being based on a 40 year old design that exists by the millions has way more mods and options. Just look in a SIP/Scoot Mercato/ scooterworks catalogue or website.

So far the 4T's seem very reliable and are running well, nice torquey engines and would probably do well with a sidecar. I have a sidecar on a 2T and it works hard, stock it wa not happy. Now its pretty good.

All the stellas have their little quirks, its like buying an Alpha romeo from the 70's. It has no syncro's in the tranny, the cable systems are right out of the 50's. THAT being said, I own 2 of them and they are a blast.

Me? I like the 2 stroke smoke, if you are a guy who mods everything you own ( thats me ) thats the way to go. want a reliable stock bike that runs well the 4T is great ( it still needs an exhaust IMO.

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:56 am

I had no choice...4T
2stroke stellas arent/weren't available new (thanx carb, bastages) and it was either track down used (rare in norcal) or old P and it's quirks (like drum brakes, cantankerous 2Stroke and that famously dodgy auto-oil system that most likely stopped working after 40 years)
So the 4t was it...I can spin the wheel in second gear from a stop and skid the rear in a down shift if I'm not careful...Lets not forget engine braking coming down hill, use it all the time coming off levy roads.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:21 pm

EvilNerdLord wrote:I had no choice...4T
2stroke stellas arent/weren't available new (thanx carb, bastages) and it was either track down used (rare in norcal) or old P and it's quirks (like drum brakes, cantankerous 2Stroke and that famously dodgy auto-oil system that most likely stopped working after 40 years)
So the 4t was it...I can spin the wheel in second gear from a stop and skid the rear in a down shift if I'm not careful...Lets not forget engine braking coming down hill, use it all the time coming off levy roads.

If you like the 4T that's great...but no reason to give bad information. The OP asked about Stellas...not P series Vespa. Both the 2T and 4T Stellas have front disc brakes.

The statements regarding Ps are misleading. Later P's had disc brakes, the stock motors are very reliable and the auto lube is pretty much bullet proof running off the crank and not the carb. A Vespa P200 can easily be a strong running daily rider.

If you're breaking the rear wheel loose on acceleration and and locking it up down shifting you're beating the snot out of the cruciform which is a sacrificial part. Look forward to splitting the cases at very low mileage, which is much easier to do on a 2T.

fisher1 · Post by **fisher1** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:54 pm

I can spin the wheel in second gear from a stop

So, you're writing that you can be seated normally on the seat of your 4T 150cc Stella scooter at a standing start and be observed spinning the rear wheel while in 2nd gear? Am I correct in understanding that is what you are claiming you can be seen doing?

keaton85 · Post by **keaton85** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:56 pm

I would consider an older Vespa but I have had my fill of rebuilding old 2-strokes and 4-strokes that are 30-40yrs old. Ive had Yamaha RDs, tons of mopeds, and assorted other bikes. No more points or unregulated 6V systems for me!

Although, I have considered having a Stella with a P200 conversion but at this moment I'm very new at what motors have what features.

Ultimately, I would like:
- Regulated permanent magnet 12V system (LED friendly)
- CDI
- Reliable crank and rod bearings

4-stroke would be great but most used Stellas are 2-stroke. When did the 4-stroke come into play?

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:18 pm

P200's are all 12v electronic ignition

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:31 pm

keaton85 wrote:4-stroke would be great but most used Stellas are 2-stroke. When did the 4-stroke come into play?

The first 4T Stellas were 2010s.

keaton85 · Post by **keaton85** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:40 am

Dooglas wrote:
keaton85 wrote:4-stroke would be great but most used Stellas are 2-stroke. When did the 4-stroke come into play?
The first 4T Stellas were 2010s.

Thanks!

I have found a lot of 2009s but I don't have the need to risk the big end bearing failure.

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:41 am

fisher1 wrote:
I can spin the wheel in second gear from a stop
So, you're writing that you can be seated normally on the seat of your 4T 150cc Stella scooter at a standing start and be observed spinning the rear wheel while in 2nd gear? Am I correct in understanding that is what you are claiming you can be seen doing?

If i'm not shifting correctly, then what am i doing wrong? Role off tbrottle, down shift...is it keeping the revs up go sink? From a stop sign: revs, clutch out to quickly...wheel slip, but the roads around here are alligator (look like alligator's back) so slip is explainable...when i was shopping for a ride and seriously looking at P's first, every one had the same problem, either non working autolube and they where premixing or wheren't sure..all where dual drum, none newer than 82 available. Discovered the stellas, like the improvements over the P's (like the disk) but CARB made finding new too hard....until the 4t.

So see, my own experience trying to find a classic 2t P where all dodgy whith the newest still being over 35yo..and not well treated, no dought those enigines are good, but I couldnt take the chance (besides, it was my birthday present to myself, so either it had to be the 2012 or 1962 if could find one' that was my goal or possibly 79-82 P since I graduated n 81 from HS).
As for riding techniques...i'm. Still learning, coming from big ass, 5 speed honda cruiser...EVERYTHING is different...braking, accelerating and shifting..I've only 400 miles after all.

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 am

fisher1 wrote:
I can spin the wheel in second gear from a stop
So, you're writing that you can be seated normally on the seat of your 4T 150cc Stella scooter at a standing start and be observed spinning the rear wheel while in 2nd gear? Am I correct in understanding that is what you are claiming you can be seen doing?

On the flat, alligator road surface here, 2nd gear can break loose the rear if you de-clutch too quickly.

Add that to list of differences to the heavy cruiser, the friction zone is tiny in comparison.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:25 pm

EvilNerdLord wrote: If i'm not shifting correctly, then what am i doing wrong?

First off why are you starting in second? The only time I will do this is if I'm taking someone off the line and willing to take any motor damage I may do.

If you rode a larger bike then you know how to shift...seriously the small contact patch reasoning doesn't account for poor riding habits.

Lets also get our terms straight...when you pull the lever you are disengaging the clutch, when you release the lever you are engaging the clutch.Don't dump the clutch...in other words releasing the lever quickly slamming the plates together..transferring everything immediately to the cush to the cruciform. starting, up-shifting or downshifting. Let it out smoothly as with any other bike or car.

Be aware that dumping the clutch in second...or first..popping wheelies...locking up when downshifting really is beating the hell out of the cruciform and the cush. The cush is designed to absorb the initial reasonable torque and the cruciform is designed to wear down instead of the gears. Keep riding like that and you will be lucky to get 1,000 miles out of one.

I have nothing against the 4T Stella, so far they seem to be a reliable scooter and people that own them seem to enjoy them. What I do have a problem with is the bad information presented in this thread by people that really don't know what they are talking about

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:40 pm

keaton85 wrote:I know this has been talked about a few times here, and sorry that I have to start it over again.

I'm looking at getting a stella at some point but can't decide on a 2T or 4T. I am very mechanically inclined and have had many 2stroke mopeds and a 4stroke CT90. No issues with complete rebuilds.

My concerns are this:
Are the 2Ts pretty solid in terms of leaky seals, crank bearings, and injection systems?
How are the 4Ts with timing and top end rebuilds?

I'm looking at mechanical issues here, along with performance items that could be added later. Will the 2T have more wiggle room to get some extra CCs over the 4T?

This scooter would at times have a side car, dog and wife...

I have not seen much written about problems with oil seals and despite what others have posted the auto lube system is extremely reliable. In some ways it is better than premix.

There have been problems with the crank.

As viney266 said the modification potential of the 2T is almost unlimited. Whatever you want to do someone has done it, posted a thread about it and made a video. Got stuck..post on one of the many 2T Vespa forums. Also remember that a Vespa motor will fit right in there if you want to do a transplant, not so with the 4T

If you have done motor rebuilds changing the crank and bearings isn't that bad a job. The 4T just doesn't have as many options at this time and being a 4T power mods require much more work...cams, valves, timing chains etc...generally with less dramatic increases in power or torque

Keep us posted and let us know which way you go!

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm

I'd say the stock 2T Stella is somewhat down on power as a tug for a sidecar. I owned one for awhile and moved on to another sidecar setup for that reason. The 4T motor has more torque and should perform better, but the advantage of the 2T Stella is that you could buy an older one and change out the motor for a 200. If I were starting all over again with a Stella and Cozy setup, that's what I would do. As BuddyRaton says - lot's of options for upgrading power on the 2T.

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:13 am

BuddyRaton wrote:
EvilNerdLord wrote: If i'm not shifting correctly, then what am i doing wrong?
First off why are you starting in second? The only time I will do this is if I'm taking someone off the line and willing to take any motor damage I may do.

If you rode a larger bike then you know how to shift...seriously the small contact patch reasoning doesn't account for poor riding habits.

Lets also get our terms straight...when you pull the lever you are disengaging the clutch, when you release the lever you are engaging the clutch.Don't dump the clutch...in other words releasing the lever quickly slamming the plates together..transferring everything immediately to the cush to the cruciform. starting, up-shifting or downshifting. Let it out smoothly as with any other bike or car.

Be aware that dumping the clutch in second...or first..popping wheelies...locking up when downshifting really is beating the hell out of the cruciform and the cush. The cush is designed to absorb the initial reasonable torque and the cruciform is designed to wear down instead of the gears. Keep riding like that and you will be lucky to get 1,000 miles out of one.

I have nothing against the 4T Stella, so far they seem to be a reliable scooter and people that own them seewm to enjoy them. What I do have a problem with is the bad information presented in this thread by people that really don't know what they are talking about

First youthere is no reason to be nasty, the dealer told me (and rode around to my trailer) that in this flat, slow neighborhood first might be a bit too low, but i shift into it anyway, just occasionally while down shifting i didnt get all the way and stayed in second and if i pop the clutch to fast, it will slip the wheel..not something i do on purpose, or often and i curse myself inside the helmet, just as downshifting and not keeping the revs up will brake the wheel loose for an instant, followed by the same string of curses, fortunately it happens on the crappy road around the neighborhood everwhere else it dowshifts fine and yes the tires are at proper psi...YES there is a big difference witth the big cruiser, it's lazier, more laidback in it's controls...stella is guicker, snappier...the cruiser was also 23 years old, even with the new controls i put on. I don't abuse my ride, even this break in period i run it through it's range but never hold it at speed...(i did top it for about 3-5 seconds once them immediately backed off)....i clean, run to work, the grocery and fantasize about doing what that vespa360 guy did...go around the world.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:03 pm

Sorry if you misunderstood my post. I ride large and small bikes so I am very familiar with the difference.

You asked for help and I gave you some advice. I thought it would help if you knew the potential damage that the burn outs and locking up will do to your motor. In the end..it's your scooter...ride it how ever you want to.

Your dealer gave you poor information, use first gear..it is there for a reason..even on flat roads which I am all too familiar with.

The statement "that famously dodgy auto-oil system that most likely stopped working after 40 years" is false. The 2T Stella uses the same auto lube system as a Vespa P. It is probably the most reliable thing on any P series motor. I have not seen any reports of failure on a Stella

Enjoy your 4T Stella...it's a great scooter

jimmbomb · Post by **jimmbomb** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:13 pm

While going over my 81 P200,noticed a small hairline crack in an oil pump gear.
Replaced that,and I guess its good for another 33 years..
Small price to pay for a super fast motor.
And new shoes on the rear brake and these brakes STOP on a dime!
Im happy
Good luck deciding

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:24 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:Sorry if you misunderstood my post. I ride large and small bikes so I am very familiar with the difference.

You asked for help and I gave you some advice. I thought it would help if you knew the potential damage that the burn outs and locking up will do to your motor. In the end..it's your scooter...ride it how ever you want to.

Your dealer gave you poor information, use first gear..it is there for a reason..even on flat roads which I am all too familiar with.

The statement "that famously dodgy auto-oil system that most likely stopped working after 40 years" is false. The 2T Stella uses the same auto lube system as a Vespa P. It is probably the most reliable thing on any P series motor. I have not seen any reports of failure on a Stella

Enjoy your 4T Stella...it's a great scooter

then the one's I was shopping for must have beat to hell by people that didn't take the time to learn, or passed from owners that knew to ones that didn't give a cr@p...
I know the potential damage, why do you think I curse when I happens?... I need it to last, I have plans for it.

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:07 pm

No easy answer. Both work just fine.
Flip a coin, whichever one you buy is better than that other (insert expletive) _T Stella.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:41 am

Different strokes for different folks, man.

It's all good, so log as it has a clutch and a foot brake.

jrstone · Post by **jrstone** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:10 pm

2 Strokes are great... unless you are riding in a group behind a bunch of them.

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:15 pm

jrstone wrote:2 Strokes are great... unless you are riding in a group behind a bunch of them.

...'the desolation of SMOG'...

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:16 pm

jrstone wrote:2 Strokes are great... unless you are riding in a group behind a bunch of them.

...'the desolation of SMOG'...

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:49 pm

jrstone wrote:2 Strokes are great... unless you are riding in a group behind a bunch of them.

They make decent smelling 2T oils. The Draggons oil that Scooterworks is selling smells like vanilla.

I run Motul 710. Not awesome, but I've smelt worse. On club rides, I tend to stay at the back, in "the smoking section".

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:01 pm

az_slynch wrote:
jrstone wrote:2 Strokes are great... unless you are riding in a group behind a bunch of them.
They make decent smelling 2T oils. The Draggons oil that Scooterworks is selling smells like vanilla.

I run Motul 710. Not awesome, but I've smelt worse. On club rides, I tend to stay at the back, in "the smoking section".

I fully believe that this country is in need of a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the sale, possession, or use of scented 2T oil!

But I'm with you AZ...I hang back...especially when I'm on the GS or SS180 with 5% mix

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:24 pm

BuddyRaton wrote: I fully believe that this country is in need of a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the sale, possession, or use of scented 2T oil!

But I'm with you AZ...I hang back...especially when I'm on the GS or SS180 with 5% mix

Aw c'mon, scented oil can be fun! Nothing's more amusing than adding a dose of the "weed" scenting to a bunch of 2T gastanks when you're riding with a bunch of sketchy folks with sketchy bikes. John K did that at a San Diego moped rally, where bein' legit was a novelty.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:42 pm

az_slynch wrote:
BuddyRaton wrote: I fully believe that this country is in need of a Constitutional Amendment outlawing the sale, possession, or use of scented 2T oil!

But I'm with you AZ...I hang back...especially when I'm on the GS or SS180 with 5% mix
Aw c'mon, scented oil can be fun! Nothing's more amusing than adding a dose of the "weed" scenting to a bunch of 2T gastanks when you're riding with a bunch of sketchy folks with sketchy bikes. John K did that at a San Diego moped rally, where bein' legit was a novelty.

Every rule has it's exceptions....and that should be the only one...get video next time!

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:19 am

jrstone wrote:2 Strokes are great... unless you are riding in a group behind a bunch of them.

Then its awesome!!!, but there is always that GUY running ancient Castor..cough cough..hack wheeze

keaton85 · Post by **keaton85** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:37 pm

Well, thanks for the replays guys! even though it did go a little OT.

I ended up with a red 2008 2T with 114 miles. lots of sitting around so it will need a good cleaning. It's in storage until the summer so we will see what mods I can get before then!

jimmbomb · Post by **jimmbomb** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:59 am

red is nice!!!

keaton85 · Post by **keaton85** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:20 pm

It's not bad, I really wanted to find a green one but this came up for a pretty good price so I couldn't pass it up.

Modern Buddy

which to buy? 2T vs 4T Stella

which to buy? 2T vs 4T Stella

Re: which to buy? 2T vs 4T Stella